War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

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(Thread IKs: fatherboxx)

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

EasilyConfused posted:

I'm not sure what islands you're thinking of, but it sure wasn't the Aleutians. The US considered the islands highly important and drove the Japanese out. That campaign is most famous for when they failed to realize the Japanese had withdrawn from Kiska before the US landing and subsequently lost hundreds of troops to an enemy that wasn't even there.

From page 93 of The Conquering Tide: War in the Pacific Islands, 1942-44:

quote:

The congressional delegations of Washington and Oregon were distressed by the presence of some 10,000 Japanese troops on two outer islands of the Aleutian archipelago. The Japanese must be driven off the islands at once, they warned, lest they storm into Alaska and imperil the entire West Coast. (Professional strategists knew the scenario was impossible, given Japan�s military and shipping limitations, but they could not say so in public without tipping off the enemy to their indifference.)

Page 225:

quote:

After the crushing defeat of the Imperial Japanese Navy at Midway, Tokyo noisily acclaimed the capture of American territory and implied that the offensive would continue into mainland Alaska and beyond. In military terms, however, Attu and Kiska were never more than a liability. Provisioning and resupplying their garrisons consumed shipping and other resources that the Japanese urgently needed in other regions. The Aleutians were a terrible theater in which to live, to fight, or to get anything done at all.

I was incorrect they never bothered retaking them though, they got around to it but it just wasn�t a priority.

evilweasel fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Sep 16, 2023

# ? Sep 16, 2023 02:48

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 12:00

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

There�s a very extensive NPS document talking about the history of the Attu campaign for the folks who are interested: https://www.nps.gov/aleu/planyourvisit/upload/Attu-Forgotten-Battle-Optimized-508.pdf

# ? Sep 16, 2023 02:59

Cable Guy: Jul 18, 2005; I don't expect any trouble, but we'll be handing these out later...; Slippery Tilde

Paladinus posted:

People used to move ships by land just by dragging them around over logs. Surely since then there have been some improvements to the process.

You can solve most problems with a good transporter log...

Mr. Apollo posted:

Has anyone heard or seen anything about Kadyrov? A bunch of accounts on Twitter are saying that Andrii Yusov (Ukrainian military intelligence spokesperson) said that his health suddenly deteriorated and he's fallen into a coma.

The Kyiv Independent is reporting that as well.
https://kyivindependent.com/military-intelligence-chechen-warlord-kadyrov-in-critical-condition/

quote:

Ukraine's Security Service (SBU) has confirmed that Chechen strongman Ramzan Kadyrov is in critical condition due to serious illness, SBU Spokesperson Andriy Yusov told the Ukrainian news outlet Obozrevatel on Sept. 15.

"Yes, indeed, there is information that war criminal Kadyrov is in serious condition � his existing diseases have worsened and caused such a serious condition," Yusov said.

Not sure of their credibility though.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 03:42

Quixzlizx: Jan 7, 2007

Cable Guy posted:

You can solve most problems with a good transporter log...

The Kyiv Independent is reporting that as well.
https://kyivindependent.com/military-intelligence-chechen-warlord-kadyrov-in-critical-condition/

Not sure of their credibility though.

They're all reporting the same thing (that an SBU spokesperson is claiming this), so it's the credibility of the SBU statement that's in question.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 04:12

Groggy nard: Aug 6, 2013; How does into botes?

Im starting to hear that Kadyrov literally buried his doctor alive because he thought his doctor was poisoning him.

That doctor was probably the only reason Kadyrov has been alive as long as he has, must suck to suck.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 04:12

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Groggy nard posted:

Im starting to hear that Kadyrov literally buried his doctor alive because he thought his doctor was poisoning him.

That doctor was probably the only reason Kadyrov has been alive as long as he has, must suck to suck.

That sounds pretty on-brand for a Russian strongman.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 04:15

stir up trouble: Mar 14, 2022

BillsPhoenix posted:

The cold war is a literal, war.

If the Ukraine conflict is a continuation or restarting of the cold war, then the US and Russia are at war.

If we're short of that, what level of US involvement would mean the US and Russia are at war?

Just to interrogate your argument here a little bit further--are you arguing that the "Ukraine conflict" began as a literal war between the US and Russia (a continuation or restarting of the cold war)? Or more that it has become a US-Russia war as a result of

BillsPhoenix posted:

Right now the US is supplying arms, training, Intel, satellites, troops just outside the border and more. The US and Russia aren't at peace.

It seems to me there is a significant difference between the two arguments.

stir up trouble fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Sep 16, 2023

# ? Sep 16, 2023 04:19

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

0 American service members have died in this war, kinda tough to have a war when one side isn't even there.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 04:28

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Popete posted:

0 American service members have died in this war, kinda tough to have a war when one side isn't even there.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 04:42

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

BillsPhoenix posted:

On the other the US failed to spot this fleet in time to intercept with our own navy until it hit the coast, an 11 ship fleet that was unquestionably higher quality and more capable than the black sea rust.

Edit for source on timeline of after: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-navy-destroyers-alaska-coast-11-chinese-russian-warships/

Why do you think that the Russian and PLAN combined training was not "intercepted" "until it hit the coast"? What did you read that led you to think that?

Let me check the source you linked.

quote:

The destroyers were the USS John McCain, USS Benfold, USS John Finn and USS Chung-Hoon. U.S. aircraft were also in the area throughout the combined exercise, which the U.S. had been tracking since it began in July, according to U.S. officials. U.S. Coast Guard ships are also always in the area.

U.S. Northern Command said the Chinese and Russian patrol remained in international waters and wasn't considered a threat. But the show of force is a reminder of the cooperation between the Chinese and Russian militaries � and of how close the countries are to Alaska.

It's not like these ships de-cloaked and appeared magically out of the mist. It was a joint Chinese and Russian task force doing training as well as demonstrating capability. The US also operates out there and responded by monitoring the exercise, placing its own aircraft and ships in the area, etc. This is pretty normal stuff, not like a ghost fleet ran aground in Alaska and only left after being "intercepted" by the US Navy or something... The source you linked doesn't imply at all that anyone, (not Russia, not China, not the US) was caught unawares by this pretty public task force training event and the US response to monitor it.

E:

LRADIKAL posted:

strategically unimportant islands.

But also some of those islands are pretty important. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eareckson_Air_Station

mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Sep 16, 2023

# ? Sep 16, 2023 04:54

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

BillsPhoenix posted:

The cold war is a literal, war.

If the Ukraine conflict is a continuation or restarting of the cold war, then the US and Russia are at war.

If we're short of that, what level of US involvement would mean the US and Russia are at war?

You are being rightfully debunked here and I would advise to not continue this line of thinking because it stinks of clancychat.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 06:22

Gervasius: Nov 2, 2010; Grimey Drawer

BillsPhoenix posted:

Yes. That's what I'm trying to say. The black sea fleet is Russia's oldest and worst ships.

Wrong. With Moskva gone, BSF has three modern frigates, two old Krivaks,, a bunch of very new corvettes armed with cruise missiles, and 5 of their 6 subs (4 out of 5 now) are all post-2010 boats.

So no, BSF has very modern warships, on average younger than either Northern or Pacific fleets.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 07:30

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

The Kilo they just blew up wasn't even a decade old, it was one of the youngest submarines in the Russian Navy.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 08:37

dr_rat: Jun 4, 2001

Herstory Begins Now posted:

The Kilo they just blew up wasn't even a decade old, it was one of the youngest submarines in the Russian Navy.

Does that make it better or worse then the older ones? Due to all the corruption stuff, it seems the standard of a lot of their new constructions aren't always the best.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 08:42

Slashrat: Jun 6, 2011; YOSPOS

The same corruption also applies to maintenance, so the older stuff is just as likely to be in even worse conditions.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 08:55

daslog: Dec 10, 2008; #essereFerrari

evilweasel posted:

the Aleutian islands are so irrelevant and pointless that the united states let japan take them in WWII and never bothered retaking them because they were useless but it cost japan a ton to hold them

like it had to be kept a state secret how little the united states cared because otherwise japan might withdraw

Not sure if you were aware of this but there was US campaign to retake them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleutian_Islands_campaign

Edit: Judging from the above posts, I think you are aware now.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 11:23

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

If you truly want to hear a story of corruption and incompetence affecting the development of submarines, you should take a look at the Lada (!) class.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada-class_submarine

# ? Sep 16, 2023 11:26

FuturePastNow: May 19, 2014

dr_rat posted:

Does that make it better or worse then the older ones? Due to all the corruption stuff, it seems the standard of a lot of their new constructions aren't always the best.

Yeah by most accounts the old Soviet submarines were much better built than the few they've managed to complete after the fall. But those are getting quite old and worn out by now.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 13:16

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

Charliegrs posted:

Are there any drones that do laser spotting for precision rounds?

Yes. Russia's Orlan series, for example. Lasers suitable for targeting do add to the cost of the drone, though. You're not (yet?) getting DJI Maverick levels of cost efficiency with drones with targeting lasers.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 13:23

Staluigi: Jun 22, 2021

Is geopolitical manipulation between antagonist rival states a war? If so i welcome us all to World War Eleven Thousand

# ? Sep 16, 2023 14:14

Ulf: Jul 15, 2001; FOUR COLORS
ONE LOVE; Nap Ghost

evilweasel posted:

From page 93 of The Conquering Tide: War in the Pacific Islands, 1942-44:

Page 225:

I was incorrect they never bothered retaking them though, they got around to it but it just wasn�t a priority.

Thanks for digging up sources on this by the way. It�s an angle on the Pacific campaign that I didn�t know about.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 15:48

BillsPhoenix: Jun 29, 2023; But what if Russia aren't the bad guys? I'm just asking questions...

fatherboxx posted:

You are being rightfully debunked here and I would advise to not continue this line of thinking because it stinks of clancychat.

I had the opposite conclusion. People claiming "that thing with war in its name is not a literal war" and the other really bad arguments...

I don't think the US started at war with Russia, but we're there now.

Edit: I might have misread that, I don't get the clancychat. I can stop replying here if that's the request. The conversation has been interesting and horrifying to me.

BillsPhoenix fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Sep 16, 2023

# ? Sep 16, 2023 17:32

Mr. Apollo: Nov 8, 2000

Oops, never mind.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 17:36

Staluigi: Jun 22, 2021

BillsPhoenix posted:

I had the opposite conclusion. People claiming "that thing with war in its name is not a literal war" and the other really bad arguments...

I feel ya brother just recently sometime tried to argue north korea isn't a democratic peoples republic and i just kept slapping him and screaming at him that its in the name bro, that makes it what the name says, that's how names work 100%

# ? Sep 16, 2023 17:37

Rugz: Apr 15, 2014; PLS SEE AVATAR. P.S. IM A BELL END LOL

BillsPhoenix posted:

I had the opposite conclusion. People claiming "that thing with war in its name is not a literal war" and the other really bad arguments...

I don't think the US started at war with Russia, but we're there now.

Edit: I might have misread that, I don't get the clancychat. I can stop replying here if that's the request. The conversation has been interesting and horrifying to me.

But Russia and the US are not in a state of war, regardless of what you think.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 17:38

spankmeister: Jun 15, 2008

BillsPhoenix posted:

I had the opposite conclusion. People claiming "that thing with war in its name is not a literal war" and the other really bad arguments...

I don't think the US started at war with Russia, but we're there now.

Edit: I might have misread that, I don't get the clancychat. I can stop replying here if that's the request. The conversation has been interesting and horrifying to me.

Yeah exactly. Trade war? Actual war. Has it right there in the name!

# ? Sep 16, 2023 17:41

Moon Slayer: Jun 19, 2007

BillsPhoenix posted:

I had the opposite conclusion. People claiming "that thing with war in its name is not a literal war" and the other really bad arguments...

I don't think the US started at war with Russia, but we're there now.

Edit: I might have misread that, I don't get the clancychat. I can stop replying here if that's the request. The conversation has been interesting and horrifying to me.

By your standards, Canada and Denmark are currently at war because of that island up by Greenland that they keep visiting to kick over the others' flag.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 17:42

Staluigi: Jun 22, 2021

I lost me ma and pa in the console wars
.. was losing my composure in the console armistice memorial groundbreaking ceremony. So much loss

# ? Sep 16, 2023 17:43

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

My cousin died in the War on High Prices. They got him in the Run on the Kitchen Appliances Aisle, RIP

# ? Sep 16, 2023 17:43

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

steinrokkan posted:

My cousin died in the War on High Prices. They got him in the Run on the Kitchen Appliances Aisle, RIP

Warmart is a dangerous place.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 17:48

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Every Memorial Day I lay a wreath at the obelisk commemorating all those who died in the Cola Wars of the 1980s.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 17:58

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

The War on Christmas is finally over, though.

Christmas won.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 18:00

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.

1,2,3,4.

I declare a Thumb War.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 18:03

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Lots more people died in the War on Drugs than any drugs, so I think they're winning.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 18:06

Tevery Best: Oct 11, 2013; Hewlo Furriend

Discendo Vox posted:

1,2,3,4.

I declare a Thumb War.

You'll have your day at The Hague, you monster.

Any news from the counter-offensive? Seems to have gotten quiet in the past week or so.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 18:08

Bell_: Sep 3, 2006; Tiny Baltimore
A billion light years away
A goon's posting the same thing
But he's already turned to dust
And the shitpost we read
Is a billion light-years old
A ghost just like the rest of us

Moon Slayer posted:

By your standards, Canada and Denmark are currently at war because of that island up by Greenland that they keep visiting to kick over the others' flag.

To his credit, it would be by Gerasimov's standards, too. It's a sort of inverse-Clausewitz thing they got going.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 18:19

Slashrat: Jun 6, 2011; YOSPOS

Denmark and Canada actually settled that dispute recently, and now have a land border with each other running across Hans Island. This coincidentally doubles the number of countries each of them have land borders with.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 18:29

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

I'm afraid we are not doing well in the War On Obesity, our best fighters are defecting to the Fat Federation each day and only a slim minority of them are coming back. We just don't have a match to their master tacticians, General Tso and Colonel Sanders! :argh:

In contrast we have all but won in the War Against Illiteracy, but they refuse to respond to our letters demanding them to surrender :saddumb:

Meanwhile... in Siberia, an oil company is having a normal day:

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1702944381722833220

quote:

Russian corruption investigative organisation Vtshk-Ogpu claims on Telegram that earlier this week armed men stormed the premises of oil company Dulisma in the Irkutsk region of Siberia.

The organisation also posted a video of the alleged events on Telegram. The video shows armed men firing into the air and forcing people to the ground.

According to Vtshk-Ogpu, armed troops landed in the area from a helicopter and the company's employees were lined up. The workers' phones were then confiscated and some of them were beaten. Eventually the workers were evicted from the area, according to the organisation.

The organisation points out that the oil plant is located in a remote area and the work is carried out on a rotational basis. Movement in and out of the area is normally by helicopter.

The organisation speculates that the events were the result of a power struggle within the company. It said that the troops belonged to Dulisma's interim director, Aleksander Zolotuhin, and would have been recruited from two private security companies. According to Vtshk-Ogpu, the men were recruited through advertisements advertising a 2-3 week 'business trip' to the Irkutsk region. The requirements were a height of 180 centimetres and possession of a weapon.

Zolotuhin and his allies aimed to seize 800 million rubles (about 7.8 million euros) worth of Dulisma's oil resources, Vtshk-Ogpu estimated.

See there's your problem, all of your PMC thugs are participating in corporate wars in Siberia instead of dying in Ukraine.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 18:40

bird food bathtub: Aug 9, 2003; College Slice

Prism posted:

The War on Christmas is finally over, though.

Christmas won.

There's early reporting that this conflict is re-igniting. Apparently Christmas has an expeditionary force moving towards Halloween's border. Conquering Thanksgiving did not appease them.

# ? Sep 16, 2023 18:49

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 12:00

BillsPhoenix: Jun 29, 2023; But what if Russia aren't the bad guys? I'm just asking questions...

Yes, this is it! Console war is perfect. Society has no issue slapping the term all over.

But we hit ukraine and there's suddenly all these caveats and situations that have to happen for it to be a war.

Ukraine has been continually escalating. The US and Russia have escalated their involvement. NATO weapons are striking deep inside Russia. Russia has had to involve Iran, N Korea, & China for arms. The US and NATO and most of Europe are supplying arms, intel, training, and behind the border supply line troops.

That's all happening today. Given the term war is both loaded and over used, I thought the reply that used "fighting" was much better.

I don't see how you can argue the US and Russia aren't fighting today given the above. This wasn't the case at the start of the invasion. But things have slowly escalated a long ways in just 18 months

# ? Sep 16, 2023 19:04

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