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drk posted:That's more than Harvard. But not by much. Lots of schools are in this range for rack rate. But it's important to understand that nobody other than rich foreigners sending their kids to these schools actually pay rack rate. Including people who don't meet "need based" criteria.
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Sep 17, 2023 22:35
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Sundae posted:The only thing I'm really worried about as a HENRY is that I don't see how anyone short of literal millionaires will afford to send a kid to college. $50k total at Whatever State University gets you a degree indistinguishable from that $65k/yr school for 99% of students. The list of schools worth paying private/out of state tuition for can be counted on your fingers, and they all offer plenty of financial aid if you can get into them.
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Sep 17, 2023 22:58
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Cerekk posted:$50k total at Whatever State University gets you a degree indistinguishable from that $65k/yr school for 99% of students. And more that financial aid, they offer high quality internships that give real experience (i.e. trade school lol) that often turn into big boy/girl job offers before you even graduate. This is my recent kids/niece/nephew experience for those of them not going ROTC.
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Sep 17, 2023 23:00
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drk posted:That's more than Harvard. Cornell University's engineering college. It's not part of the SUNY system so you pay out the rear end whether you're an in-state or not. It was $30-35K tuition when I went in 2001, but definitely-totally-not-sneaky-sports-scholarships disguised as need-based aid brought it down to $8K per year. (I word it that way because the need-based aid calculation kept finding mistakes that resulted in recalculations in my favor, which the track coach there would relay to me a day or two after Princeton or Harvard called me. There's no way they actually hosed up a calculator 3-4 times on me, every time resulting in me going lower in cost; they were screwing with the numbers to get around the Ivies not being allowed, by charter, to give sports scholarships.) quote:And more that financial aid, they offer high quality internships that give real experience (i.e. trade school lol) that often turn into big boy/girl job offers before you even graduate. This is definitely true (if you actually can swing with the competition for getting those internships). The level of internship availability straight-up marketed to students at some of the higher-end schools is in a separate league entirely from hunting for things on your own. I picked a bad field for that sort of thing (biological/biomedical engineering in 2001 wasn't going a lot of places yet), but if you were in the EE/MechE fields, you had Lockheed, Raytheon, Sikorski, etc etc, coming to your internship programs to court you. It got weird near 2005-2006 timeframe (I saw this during grad school particularly) when suddenly the real companies were gone and it was largely financial firms, but then 2008 happened and it went back to actual productive employers again. Sundae fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Sep 17, 2023 |
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Sep 17, 2023 23:03
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Sundae posted:kept finding mistakes that resulted in recalculations in my favor, which the track coach there would relay to me a day or two after Princeton or Harvard called me. There's no way they actually hosed up a calculator 3-4 times on me, every time resulting in me going lower in cost; they were screwing with the numbers to get around the Ivies not being allowed, by charter, to give sports scholarships.) Maybe that was it for you, maybe not. In the end, these schools are absolutely in economic competition with each other and they know it. I went through this a couple year ago with my oldest.
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Sep 17, 2023 23:05
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Motronic posted:Maybe that was it for you, maybe not. In the end, these schools are absolutely in economic competition with each other and they know it. I went through this a couple year ago with my oldest. True. What I mean more is, it seems unlikely that it was as simple as "need-based FAFSA + CSS Profile says you owe $X" because if it was, the calculator wouldn't have oopsied in my favor over and over, particularly after Ivy Hour each time. (Ivy Hour: That weird period from 7-8PM or so several nights a week when it was all Ivies calling my family at home. The others called at other times of the day, but I could reliably count on a string of Ivy schools all going back to back to back.) Whether it was competition between schools for other reasons or for my legs, I don't know. I just don't generally believe that mistakes work out in the customer's favor very often.  Though for all I know, it was like that for everyone. I didn't have a lot of guidance through the college process, so I have no idea what was normal for 2000-2001 period.
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Sep 17, 2023 23:13
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Anne Whateley posted:The other obvious factor in doctors’ case is insane student loans that take out a huge chunk off the top. Like $250k is the average. Doctors, dentists, and vets are hosed that way in a way that most software engineers, etc., aren’t to the same degree. Obviously with a high income you can pay it off eventually, I’m not saying that’s why boomer doctors are paycheck-to-paycheck, but millennial doctors can hardly avoid it. It is completely dependent on your speciality. I have a friend who just signed a contract for 1.2mil as a neurosurgeon attending. Vets are just hosed, though.
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Sep 17, 2023 23:20
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Sundae posted:it seems unlikely that it was as simple as "need-based FAFSA + CSS Profile says you owe $X" because if it was, the calculator wouldn't have oopsied in my favor over and over Yes, 100% agreed. I mean, other than the fact that their "calculator" included "likelihood to lose this business." Then you could still say it was part of the calculator because it was the inputs that changed. Motronic fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Sep 17, 2023 |
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Sep 17, 2023 23:21
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Also correct outside of the top 20 schools nobody pays full price
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Sep 17, 2023 23:21
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I work in this space and can make a bit effort post, but it’s pretty complex
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Sep 17, 2023 23:25
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Upgrade posted:I work in this space and can make a bit effort post, but it’s pretty complex I'd definitely be game to read it, if you decide it's worth the effort to write. 
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Sep 17, 2023 23:26
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Sundae posted:This is definitely true (if you actually can swing with the competition for getting those internships). The level of internship availability straight-up marketed to students at some of the higher-end schools is in a separate league entirely from hunting for things on your own. I went to a state school and internships pretty much fell into my lap from sophomore year on. And now that I assist recruiting, I would say many state schools and "lower-end" schools appear to have robust career services teams. The students at those schools are often going to local companies or smaller companies, but they have a lot of opportunities being handed to them too.
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Sep 17, 2023 23:28
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Wait so is the BWM thread just a bunch of people that went to elite colleges plus Cornell amirite posting?
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Sep 17, 2023 23:29
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Residency Evil posted:Wait so is the BWM thread just a bunch of people that went to elite colleges plus Cornell amirite posting? This entire subforum is that.
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Sep 17, 2023 23:31
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OctaMurk posted:I went to a state school and internships pretty much fell into my lap from sophomore year on. And now that I assist recruiting, I would say many state schools and "lower-end" schools appear to have robust career services teams. The students at those schools are often going to local companies or smaller companies, but they have a lot of opportunities being handed to them too. No doubt, but higher end schools are pipelines into very well paid companies you've heard of. This is absolutely a thing in tech at least, where you stumble out the door making a buck fifty.
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Sep 17, 2023 23:34
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I had a coworker who was a literal rocket scientist (turned MBA office drone) who got a degree from Cornell and always avoided telling people where she went to school. Thank you, writers of The Office!
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Sep 18, 2023 00:30
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Sure you all went to Ivy League schools yet you’re still posting on the same exact forums the rest of us plebs are. Pretty embarrassing imo.
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Sep 18, 2023 00:31
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Residency Evil posted:Wait so is the BWM thread just a bunch of people that went to elite colleges plus Cornell amirite posting? Code academy and community college graduate here. I will say that the smartest guy at my first job after re-skilling was a Cornell grad. (He got a BFA from their Art department.)
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Sep 18, 2023 00:35
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OctaMurk posted:I went to a state school and internships pretty much fell into my lap from sophomore year on. And now that I assist recruiting, I would say many state schools and "lower-end" schools appear to have robust career services teams. The students at those schools are often going to local companies or smaller companies, but they have a lot of opportunities being handed to them too. How much value would you put on an extra 10 or 20% salary for a first job out of school? There’s a lot of evidence that early career gaps persist or grow, a more expensive school could potentially justify itself just with career placement.
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Sep 18, 2023 00:40
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Strong Sauce posted:Sure you all went to Ivy League schools yet you’re still posting on the same exact forums the rest of us plebs are. Pretty embarrassing imo. Lol imagine taking on debt to still end up here.
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Sep 18, 2023 00:42
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Cerekk posted:$50k total at Whatever State University gets you a degree indistinguishable from that $65k/yr school for 99% of students. you go to the elite schools for the connections not the degree Upgrade posted:It is completely dependent on your speciality. I have a friend who just signed a contract for 1.2mil as a neurosurgeon attending. Vets are just hosed, though. well yeah that's neurosurgery though, and even that is above average for the field. plus the residency is seven years of hell (from what I've heard) But I would imagine most specialists are making at least 300K minimum, which shouldn't make paying off debt too arduous. Strong Sauce posted:Sure you all went to Ivy League schools yet you’re still posting on the same exact forums the rest of us plebs are. Pretty embarrassing imo. I went to a state school (U of MN) because my parents would pay for it and while I was a decent student, I was hardly a valedictorian. I didn't even apply anywhere else. but at the time they had a formula for each college within U of MN that was based on your class rank + 2*ACT (or SAT). I had a good ACT score so I already knew I'd get in automatically so gently caress it. I think the number was 130 for my specific college. actionjackson fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Sep 18, 2023 |
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Sep 18, 2023 00:59
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:How much value would you put on an extra 10 or 20% salary for a first job out of school? There’s a lot of evidence that early career gaps persist or grow, a more expensive school could potentially justify itself just with career placement. I don't know? It depends on the situation. For a given situation it's just a math problem, for example if you believe your increase in starting salary exceeds your yearly student loan payments it would of course be a no-brainer to go with the "nicer school". Therefore, student loans shouldn't be a big issue because obviously, everyone who goes to expensive private schools should easily be able to repay the loans on the basis of their improved starting salaries.
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Sep 18, 2023 01:06
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Sundae posted:The only thing I'm really worried about as a HENRY is that I don't see how anyone short of literal millionaires will afford to send a kid to college. I have an almost three month old, and if that kid wants to go to college they are moving to Germany assuming tuition is still basically free there. There is no way we could save up enough money in the next 18 years to pay for whatever grossly inflated tuition costs the local university will be charging
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Sep 18, 2023 01:26
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Strong Sauce posted:Sure you all went to Ivy League schools yet you’re still posting on the same exact forums the rest of us plebs are. Pretty embarrassing imo. Buddy, don’t remind me. I’m also in a career that depends on me physically going in to work, like a schlub. Who knew a global pandemic would allow everyone to WFH in their underwear.
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Sep 18, 2023 02:05
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i could think of downsides to bein a doctor in a global pandemic yeah
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Sep 18, 2023 02:52
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My one weird trick to not have like $100k+ in student loans was to have my Dad die after financing it all with Parent PLUS loans.  Not worth it, but it works.
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Sep 18, 2023 02:52
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Except for the pause, we've been paying ~$20,000/yr toward student loans for the last decade, of which ~$200/yr goes toward the principal.
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Sep 18, 2023 03:09
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I know this is BWM chat, but if you have a 0 percent or more VA rating and kids, California waives state college tuition until age 26. Age 30 if the kid is a vet. https://www.calvet.ca.gov/VetServices/Pages/College-Fee-Waiver.aspx
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Sep 18, 2023 03:13
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Cerekk posted:Except for the pause, we've been paying ~$20,000/yr toward student loans for the last decade, of which ~$200/yr goes toward the principal. 
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Sep 18, 2023 03:14
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Cerekk posted:Except for the pause, we've been paying ~$20,000/yr toward student loans for the last decade, of which ~$200/yr goes toward the principal. uhhh did you put school on a credit card
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Sep 18, 2023 03:27
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Guinness posted:uhhh did you put school on a credit card Medical school is expensive. It starts getting forgiven this year.
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Sep 18, 2023 03:28
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Tuition in western europe might be cheap, but wages are also much lower in comparison.
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Sep 18, 2023 04:10
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an iksar marauder posted:Tuition in western europe might be cheap, but wages are also much lower in comparison. That's why you move to the states after you get cheap education.
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Sep 18, 2023 04:15
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an iksar marauder posted:Tuition in western europe might be cheap, but wages are also much lower in comparison. Good, doctors shouldn't be paid an exorbitant amount. It creates perverse incentives and produces worse doctors when lots of people are attracted by high pay and elevated social status, rather than an interest in medicine and decent social skills. They should make a comfortable living of mid-range prosperity for their region.
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Sep 18, 2023 04:31
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they got money and power via their direct access to the physical persons of, and their authority over, the rich and powerful and this continues to today so i dunno what policy mumble mumble will change that
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Sep 18, 2023 04:34
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Residency Evil posted:Wait so is the BWM thread just a bunch of people that went to elite colleges plus Cornell amirite posting? I went to Brandeis which is, factually, near Boston. Also absolutely not Ivy. Still pretty BWM though. (also I will go to my deathbead swearing that Harvard is in Boston. Cambridge is on the Red Line, closer to downtown than the second-to-last commuter rail stop! gently caress you Harvard!)
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Sep 18, 2023 04:43
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Kenning posted:Good, doctors shouldn't be paid an exorbitant amount. It creates perverse incentives and produces worse doctors when lots of people are attracted by high pay and elevated social status, rather than an interest in medicine and decent social skills. They should make a comfortable living of mid-range prosperity for their region. Wages in general. Also I’m not sure which reality you’re describing but it’s not this one. If you’re just in it for the money and you decide to do medicine of all things instead of touching computers or shuffling financial documents around, you’re probably not smart enough to make it. This post reads a lot like ‘clueless ideologue’ tbh. But it’s like other people already said. If you’re rich do whatever. If you’re not rich and your plan is to move abroad and get a foreign degree, then move back to compete with people who got local degrees and spent the last years making local connections, good luck with that. Like you need a little more of a plan here. On the medical side, there’s a good chance you won’t even get into a residency program with a foreign MD. And you’ll have to do the USMLE to even have your MD accepted—unless you specifically want to work in Tennessee or some other place like that.
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Sep 18, 2023 04:47
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Kenning posted:Good, doctors shouldn't be paid an exorbitant amount. It creates perverse incentives and produces worse doctors when lots of people are attracted by high pay and elevated social status, rather than an interest in medicine and decent social skills. They should make a comfortable living of mid-range prosperity for their region. i think it should be above mid-range given the training involved, but putting the debt issue I side I think 150-400K is a reasonable range
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Sep 18, 2023 04:47
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Truly in the end whether you have the skills is what will matter and hold up the longest. If someone is stupid they're going to face workplace issues quickly.
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Sep 18, 2023 04:49
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That’s what specialists in the US are making, and the lower bound of that range is above what specialists in most of Europe are making. There’s outliers in private practice (fewer outside of the US than you’d think) but then you get into entrepreneurship and building a business more than the occupation. Like how it’s not really fair to use owners of welding companies in calculations of how much welders make
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Sep 18, 2023 04:54
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