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six hour probations aren't even necessarily "punishments" lol they're frequently just a way to stop threads from going off track when there's a fight. they aren't some kind of serious tool of accountability, and the worst thing to do is to treat it as some really grave thing, because it makes people less likely to use them. it's a button that says "go outside and cool off". Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Sep 17, 2023 |
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Sep 17, 2023 14:19
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a sixer for every PM and documenting every PM is a terrible idea
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Sep 17, 2023 14:38
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Let us read your emails
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Sep 17, 2023 15:15
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give us the password to your account, it's the only way to be sure
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Sep 17, 2023 15:28
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A big problem with documenting every mod decision publicly is you would have to document every report, and that way madness lies 
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Sep 17, 2023 15:35
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Feels Villeneuve posted:six hour probations aren't even necessarily "punishments" lol they're frequently just a way to stop threads from going off track when there's a fight. this. a sixer isn't a life or death decision that some posters/mods/admins/iks think they are.
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Sep 17, 2023 15:46
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fr0id posted:This is a unique subforum. It is one that anyone outside of the culture would think (d&d, board games, Magic the Gathering, and warhammer painting) would be the most easy going forum possible, outside of maybe magic. Are you really still mad that a handful of you having screeching meltdowns at a mod to forumban someone you didn't like who didn't really break any rules besides retaliating to constant harassment from you didn't accomplish what you wanted? Grow the gently caress up lol
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Sep 17, 2023 16:01
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It really feels like every time the moderation staff here get any sort of feedback they read it in the worst possible light and insist that actually things are fine the way they are. Give more sixers about aggro posting. Nobody except the very worst this board has been cultivating through inaction will be mad about that. Don't overthink it.
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Sep 17, 2023 16:04
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fr0id posted:Second: you are Wishy washy about almost everything. Like the board game thread. We had two new users one of whom everyone hated and you decided the best action was a new ik that lead to one of our best posters leaving. That was a wrong decision entirely on you that you need to deal with. If you had just forum banned the user that all the thread regulars hated, that would not have happened. They still post to this day btw. None of their posts add anywhere near the value that the actual board game designer did. YOU hosed THAT UP. THATS ALL YOU. I’m doing all caps because I’m loving angry that you being wishy washy lost us a literal game design god. Prada Slut? Prada Slut. While I personally think Leperflesh does a solid job as one of the Trad Games mods, I think it's fair to say that not threadbanning Prada Slut a year or so ago was the wrong mod decision at the time. Devil's advocate - Prada Slut has had several probes in the thread regarding what you're talking about, and has not been probed in over a year. If they are currently back to being an 'OK' level poster, maybe the lesson stuck? If so.. good? I assume, and hope, there's some notes in the mod forums about keeping them on a short leash. I also hope they had gotten pulled up privately about it.. cause yeeeeaaaaaaaaah that was a lovely time for all and they needed a long talk. And even with saying that I agree that it was a bad mod decision, it's still feeling super weird how you're framing Leperflesh in this? Cause by "lost us a literal game design god", again weird, I assume you mean Mayveena. I'm honestly not sure what happened there, but it never felt like they had been forced out of the thread in any way shape or form? If they were burnt out from being promoted to IK, or they were unhappy with the way the TG mods handled things, that's probably a longer discussion. I'll preface this that while Mayveena is an excellent poster who added to the thread I'm not sure if they were the 'correct' fit as the thread IK, as that can be a stressful role to be put into, and I feel that might have been a major contributing factor to their absence; I know I agonised about several decisions I made as Games IK which I later recognised were incorrect and should have been pushed back up the food chain. I hope they post again, I think the thread would be better for it with them in it, so you could always PM them and ask fr0id posted:Third: again just loving document every mod action you take. And do it publicly. Like it’s not much to ask. Document every pm. Sending someone a PM = giving them a 6er at the same time? This is dumb as fuuuuuck, and you know it's dumb as gently caress.
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Sep 17, 2023 16:40
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Mekchu posted:this. a sixer isn't a life or death decision that some posters/mods/admins/iks think they are. my computer is attached to a bomb and if i do not post for 6 hours it explodes also all of this is still a bit off the worst idea i've read which is that all mods should simply go through background checks which are reported to Jeffrey of YOSPOS, somehow
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Sep 17, 2023 16:41
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The BG thread has been decent for almost a year now with generally good posting. I think it’s weird as gently caress to try to bring up that whole poo poo again. There’s nothing to be gained by it. The fixes have been done.
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Sep 17, 2023 16:56
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Tekopo posted:The BG thread has been decent for almost a year now with generally good posting. I think it’s weird as gently caress to try to bring up that whole poo poo again. There’s nothing to be gained by it. The fixes have been done.
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Sep 17, 2023 17:02
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Tekopo posted:The BG thread has been decent for almost a year now with generally good posting. I think it’s weird as gently caress to try to bring up that whole poo poo again. There’s nothing to be gained by it. The fixes have been done.
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Sep 17, 2023 17:28
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yeah I'm all for mod accountability and documenting things like forum/threadbans, actions like stepping down or getting promoted, and weird special rules in public places that everyone can see, but filing away every PM, running every single decisions through The Committee, and especially using sixers for bookkeeping purposes is insane. Maybe if these people were getting paid for it or something lol
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Sep 17, 2023 18:38
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Ominous Jazz posted:It really feels like every time the moderation staff here get any sort of feedback they read it in the worst possible light and insist that actually things are fine the way they are. Give more sixers about aggro posting. Nobody except the very worst this board has been cultivating through inaction will be mad about that. Don't overthink it. Yeah this is going to happen, feedback from the thread is clear and it's a reasonable and appropriate change.
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Sep 17, 2023 20:03
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I think it's reasonable to follow up on a report with the person who did the reporting if you don't act on the report itself. I don't know if it needs to be done every time, like "Hey I know you hate this person, but I am not acting on them contributing to the ham sandwich thread with reasonable advice on mayo application" is silly. If someone sends in a report that's borderline, or "This post gives me an off energy," or it seems like the reporter misunderstood the post, sure. Flagging every post that gets reported with a probation or something is a bad idea for a lot of reasons. Not saying follow up isn't happening here, but just pulling some constructive thoughts out of this exchange. e- but I do agree this would be a nice a forum-wide thing, not just in TG. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Sep 17, 2023 |
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Sep 17, 2023 20:17
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First, I apologize for being too aggro myself with leperflesh. Like I said in that post, myself and folks around here respect you and the work you do. I was being a pompous rear end. I brought up the whole thing with Mayveena because it was a case that in my opinion showed that the mods not being harder on someone that resulted in far better posters leaving. I don’t want that whole thing to be relitigated, but just want to note that it’s a case of what I think was a bad outcome that, it could be argued, could have easily been avoided through stronger mod action. As far as documenting every PM, what I meant was that when someone makes a post warranting a “knock it off” PM, to accompany it with a sixer. A multiple PM conversation or the contents of that conversation have no need to be documented. Neither do PMs that aren’t related to specific post issues. Leperflesh mentioned that they document notable actions taken or decisions made in some of the mod tools, so I was going off of that. Leperflesh also has said in the past they prefer to resolve stuff through PMs, so this is kind of a personal recommendation that if they do that it helps to have a sixer to show the community something was done. Leperflesh also mentioned that they see a flaw with the probation system being that the person might be asleep during the probe. I think that reflects a fundamental disagreement on what a sixer means. A sixer, in my opinion, is not usually a time out like you would give a toddler, where the poster must frustratedly wait before being allowed to have fun again. A sixer is instead, as others have said, a cool off period to stop an argument, a firm reminder of what the rules are if they’re broken, a way to document a mod having to edit something out of a post, or sometimes just a goof. Myself and others want leperflesh to be more liberal with probations because in most cases they’re not punishing people for posting, they’re just reminding them of the rules or stopping silly arguments. Edit: posted before seeing what sebmojo said. Sounds good, then! Also, again, I apologize for going off on leperflesh in my previous post. It was uncalled for. fr0id fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Sep 17, 2023 |
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Sep 17, 2023 20:23
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sebmojo posted:Yeah this is going to happen, feedback from the thread is clear and it's a reasonable and appropriate change. This is good to hear.
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Sep 17, 2023 20:31
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fr0id posted:First, I apologize for being too aggro myself with leperflesh. Like I said in that post, myself and folks around here respect you and the work you do. I was being a pompous rear end. Thanks. Shall we draw a line under this topic? Message received about slanting moderation more towards visible probes rather than less visible forum management, and I'm always happy to get pms if you think reports are being ignored (I can't guarantee I'll agree with you, but I'll listen)
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Sep 17, 2023 21:33
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sebmojo posted:Thanks. Shall we draw a line under this topic? Message received about slanting moderation more towards visible probes rather than less visible forum management, and I'm always happy to get pms if you think reports are being ignored (I can't guarantee I'll agree with you, but I'll listen) Sounds good to me and you’ve already spoken on it. Thanks for listening.
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Sep 17, 2023 22:24
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I think the modmins should be allowed to push the button that hatches all the ant eggs in every modem and floods the users' houses
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Sep 17, 2023 23:23
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sasha_d3ath posted:I think the modmins should be allowed to push the button that hatches all the ant eggs in every modem and floods the users' houses oh that button (laughs politely) do you take me for a villain in a Republic serial
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Sep 17, 2023 23:29
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sebmojo posted:oh that button (laughs politely) do you take me for a villain in a Republic serial This vibe tbh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krsj2bcnRlM
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Sep 17, 2023 23:39
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sebmojo posted:oh that button (laughs politely) do you take me for a villain in a Republic serial The check is in the mail and the missiles are already descending
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Sep 17, 2023 23:51
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Tarnop posted:This vibe tbh I will literally never say no to a JAM ("JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM") reference
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Sep 18, 2023 00:02
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sebmojo posted:Thanks. Shall we draw a line under this topic? Message received about slanting moderation more towards visible probes rather than less visible forum management, and I'm always happy to get pms if you think reports are being ignored (I can't guarantee I'll agree with you, but I'll listen) Sounds good to me too, personally. Not sure why the old Prada Slut issues needed to be brought up again, since the situation regarding them has improved somewhat. (Also, didn't Mayveena leave the BG thread because of some perceived slight by the mods, for 'overstepping' on her jurisdiction as BG thread IK? Or am I misremembering? Since I don't recall PS having anything to do with that, really... I could very well be wrong, though) But yeah, either way it sounds like a good plan to me. Just uh, don't unleash any ants in my house, please! Feels Villeneuve posted:six hour probations aren't even necessarily "punishments" lol they're frequently just a way to stop threads from going off track when there's a fight. True, a 6er isn't a big deal at all, to get people to cool off for a bit. I agree that they should be handed out more than they are. But also, ilmucche posted:a sixer for every PM and documenting every PM is a terrible idea
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Sep 18, 2023 07:25
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A sixer perhaps oughtn't to be a big deal, but it absolutely is a big deal for a very large proportion of posters, and they let us know about it. The words in the sixer matter a lot, too. "Stop bickering" is much less of a big deal than "don't be racist," for example. The rap sheet is a permanent record and people do not like being (as they see it) unfairly slandered on their rap sheet. We will use our judgement and give sixers where they are warranted, and we hear the message that lots of TG folks feel they are warranted more often (and also so are longer probations), so it's time to adjust the threshold. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Sep 18, 2023 |
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Sep 18, 2023 16:48
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Ettin posted:A big problem with documenting every mod decision publicly is you would have to document every report, and that way madness lies Not least because reports need to stay anon so that the occasional followings of superstars that get reported and eat a probe don't cause problems, no matter how stupid they are.
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Sep 18, 2023 16:57
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People don't like sixers because they are a time-out mostly, except for joke ones. Nobody likes being treated like a child, even if they are acting like a child and it's probably for the best that they take a break. The sixer will always be seen as much worse than it really is.
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Sep 18, 2023 16:59
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It's just the reality that often a person getting a probe will think they don't deserve it. Hell, they will sometimes be right! Mods aren't infallible. But that is why sixers are so good. If I get a sixer and I think the mod is wrong, I can just shrug and go "oh well, I guess they took that the wrong way." It's absolutely fine. I had that happen once or twice when I posted in D&D and I didn't mind. I could see all the poo poo those mods had to handle and I didn't blame them for making what I saw as minor mistakes. I think longer probes need to be for actual rule-breaking, not just vibes-based. Like, Arivia's post that kicked this poo poo off was arguably on-topic, but the vibes were bad and so a mod gave a sixer and that should have been ok. If she had copped a 3-day probe for that post, I would have totally been on her side in thinking that was unfair. The one time I got a 3-day probe in D&D for asking an on-topic question of a mod, it really made me question that mod's fitness for the position. Meanwhile, some lovely posters were allowed to repeatedly post stuff that would not be allowed on most other subs here and so I just left the sub. If those posters had been getting sixers every time they did that, I may still be posting there. Conclusion: sixers for everyone! The thread are all mad at you? That's a sixer. You are skirting the edge of the rules? That's a sixer. Giving the mods bad vibes? That's a sixer.
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Sep 19, 2023 15:59
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It'd be nice if "cool off" sixers didn't stay on the rap sheet. I think the important thing that if it's a cool off sixers it should be clear, "take a break" or similar doesn't imply that you did something wrong on its own, but that it just happened to be the straw that broke the camels back. While if it's unclear then I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with this information, did I do something wrong? Was there a better combination of words that wouldn't have been wrong? Was the buttons pushed because of some other reason? Some sixers I've gotten were like this and factor into me deciding not to post in a particular thread because that's basically the message I got, and if I remember correctly PMing the mod for clarification didn't clarify things. Ultimately I stopped going there because it was toxic af but the random sixers were the straw that broke the humpy Cr 1/8 creatures back. So that'd be the tldr, sixers that feel like the weather suck, be clear, maybe try to de-escalate first "hey people cool down a little please" if it doesn't seem urgent though but ultimately distinguish between a "don't do this specifically thing" and a "take a break" so the intent is clearly communicated.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:33
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your forums dot something awful dot com rap sheet isn't going to be used to deny you housing or job opportunities so I'm not sure why anyone would care that there are sixers on it. Frankly a clean rap sheet is far more suspicious.
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Sep 19, 2023 16:55
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So, writing report reasons is a bit of an art, there's very basic introductory stuff given to mods and an even more perfunctory one for IKs. IKs have less feedback, no access to the mod forum, etc. If an IK is doing a bunch of unclear report reasons someone will reach out and talk to them usually but any random sixer could just have a "don't do this" description and it's too much overhead to try to police all of them across the forums. TG has far, far less IK activity than some of those other forums though. Like one or two IK probations a month. This means our IKs just don't have a lot of experience with writing probation reasons, even the ones we've had for years. One cool thing though is that astral has recently added the ability for mods (not IKs) to edit our already submitted probation reasons. We used to have to request an admin to do an edit. So if a probation reason is wrong, or inappropriate, or something like that, we can fix it. We can't edit other people's probations though so I can't fix an IK's description, I'd still have to ask an admin to do that.
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Sep 19, 2023 17:04
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if I get a cool-off sixer that ruins my perfect, spotless, 15-year old rap sheet, i'm declaring vendetta on that mod, admin, or ik
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Sep 19, 2023 19:37
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Tekopo posted:if I get a cool-off sixer that ruins my perfect, spotless, 15-year old rap sheet, i'm declaring vendetta on that mod, admin, or ik I have a monkey paw that just turned into a tiny blackened fist
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Sep 19, 2023 20:03
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Tekopo posted:if I get a cool-off sixer that ruins my perfect, spotless, 15-year old rap sheet, i'm declaring vendetta on that mod, admin, or ik
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Sep 19, 2023 20:04
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Raenir Salazar posted:It'd be nice if "cool off" sixers didn't stay on the rap sheet. Fwiw this is exactly the opposite message from the recent course of the thread, which has been saying don't de escalate, jump straight to probations lol
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Sep 19, 2023 20:05
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I try to be clear with the difference between a "don't post this specific thing" sixer and a "chill with this dumb slapfight" sixer. I am in favor of clear probation reasons. e. but any sixer reason can and will be challenged. "That wasn't a dumb slap fight I was just explaining very calmly" and also "and you didn't give those other people sixers after they all said I was being a dick" and so on and so on. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Sep 19, 2023 |
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Sep 19, 2023 20:08
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Tekopo posted:perfect, spotless This wording just makes me think of the opposite of forums cancer: things to buy to improve your forum hygiene. Like "rap sheet ear candles" that are meant to flush toxins out of your rapsheet or "homeopathic probations" that last one twentieth of a second.
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Sep 19, 2023 20:12
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sebmojo posted:Fwiw this is exactly the opposite message from the recent course of the thread, which has been saying don't de escalate, jump straight to probations lol i think the point is that a six hour probation is a form of deescalation op
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Sep 19, 2023 20:31
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