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Fiona & Cake has been surprisingly good so far and I’ll be curious to see where it all leads. A pity there’s only 2 weeks left in the show now as I honestly wouldn’t mind seeing more AT related content where this came from (even the fact they’re now allowed to do things like swear and put more adult themes into the show is handled in a way that feels completely natural)
Larryb fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Sep 15, 2023 |
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Sep 15, 2023 06:26
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Supposedly they're hoping to do more if this does well enough
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Sep 15, 2023 07:00
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drrockso20 posted:Supposedly they're hoping to do more if this does well enough That would be nice, but with Warner/Discovery being so hostile to animation right now, I feel like the target for "well enough" is gonna be a lot higher than it should be.
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Sep 15, 2023 10:20
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How is the show doing commercially so far out of curiosity?
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Sep 15, 2023 12:18
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:and he wasn't even talking about what people think of nowadays when they use the term, he was shittalking The Iron Giant. Yeah. Technically speaking, anime aren't innately Shonen, shojou, etc. unless the source material is. If it's not based on something under those broad categories, it's usually just ascribed one based on ~vibes~ and timeslots. Ultimately it is just a marketing categorization and very broad ones at that. Obviously a shonen series is more likely to have a male main character in it, but otoh, that wouldn't be true for Seinen where that umbrella includes hard boiled action dramas, cute girls doing cute things, and stuff that might be in a shonen magazine, but more risque. Larryb posted:How is the show doing commercially so far out of curiosity? Like all things streaming, 
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Sep 15, 2023 15:11
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Xelkelvos posted:Yeah. Technically speaking, anime aren't innately Shonen, shojou, etc. unless the source material is. If it's not based on something under those broad categories, it's usually just ascribed one based on ~vibes~ and timeslots. Ultimately it is just a marketing categorization and very broad ones at that. Obviously a shonen series is more likely to have a male main character in it, but otoh, that wouldn't be true for Seinen where that umbrella includes hard boiled action dramas, cute girls doing cute things, and stuff that might be in a shonen magazine, but more risque. It probably doesn't help that most of those demographics also each have a few more specific, prominent genres that a lot of people tend to conflate with the demographic term as a whole. Like, the shonen demographic is a lot more than just shonen battle series like Dragon Ball or One Piece, but for a chunk of the North American population the two things are entirely synonymous.
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Sep 15, 2023 16:05
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Larryb posted:How is the show doing commercially so far out of curiosity? Xelkelvos posted:Like all things streaming, This is loving killing me. I'm never sure if the positivity I see is because it's genuinely liked en masse or if I've accidentally cultivated a bubble for Thing I Like.
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Sep 15, 2023 18:16
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Das Boo posted:This is loving killing me. I'm never sure if the positivity I see is because it's genuinely liked en masse or if I've accidentally cultivated a bubble for Thing I Like. Probably a little bit of both. It does seem to be pretty well enjoyed, but like other people have said, you really have to be an AT fan to enjoy it, it's not a "yeah you can just start here" kind of show. Adventure Time was a very popular show, so that audience is big. But you also had to have been pretty into the lore of the show, which is a subset within that fandom. Personally back in the day I jumped ship on AT the more things shifted towards serialization and a greater story, and I know I'm not the only one (I'm not trying to knock anyone's personal tastes btw, to each their own). Of course your bubble is definitely gonna be more cultivated though, since you're actually in the industry.
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Sep 15, 2023 22:06
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I have to admit to being one of the people who slid off the show as it started to get more relationship-focused and backstory. It wasn't that the new episodes were bad by any means, but it meant that you had to find Finn's romantic journey compelling as opposed to something that was much more of a joke/trope at the start.
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Sep 15, 2023 22:36
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Larryb posted:Fiona & Cake has been surprisingly good so far and I’ll be curious to see where it all leads. A pity there’s only 2 weeks left in the show now as I honestly wouldn’t mind seeing more AT related content where this came from (even the fact they’re now allowed to do things like swear and put more adult themes into the show is handled in a way that feels completely natural) Yeah I came looking hoping to find a thread on it. I'm really enjoying how it's progressed with the times. Adventure Time walked so modern shows could run.
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Sep 16, 2023 01:22
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Neeksy posted:I have to admit to being one of the people who slid off the show as it started to get more relationship-focused and backstory. It wasn't that the new episodes were bad by any means, but it meant that you had to find Finn's romantic journey compelling as opposed to something that was much more of a joke/trope at the start. I'm in much the same boat as you, though the new show has motivated me to actually go back and watch the final season and a bit's worth of episodes of the original series I never got around to. I think the series ended up really suffering from the departure of Rebecca Sugar since she was the one who originally set up the whole Finn and Flame Princess romance arc, but left the show before that plotline could be proper resolved, and the attempts by the rest of the team to cap off that arc ended up being kind of a mess. It's honestly also been kind of the reason I've never really been able to fully enjoy Marceline and Bubblegum being a couple? Like you said, Finn's romantic journey and crush on PB in the early seasons was treated as much more of a trope/joke, but then once they started more seriously focusing on Finn's love life and PB not reciprocating his feelings it kind of just made the dynamic between the two characters really awkward in a way that I never felt we got full closure on? So while I like the idea of PB and Marceline being a couple in the broadest sense, the relationship just has the unfortunate association in my head of Finn's never really resolved and frequently kind of repetitive romantic storyline? Conversely I've been really into the stuff with Gary and Marshall Lee in the most recent episodes of the new series.
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Sep 16, 2023 01:29
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I think that sort of ties into the kind of lack of closure I always kind of enjoyed in Adventure Time. Its probably a product of how freestyle the writing room seems to have been for much of the show's run. Several arcs didn't have tidy endings, just people gradually moving on and putting their focus on a different stage of their lives. I certainly wouldn't want it in every show, but I liked the feeling of it in Adventure Time. In Fionna and Cake, I kind of wonder if there's some messaging about Fionna existing as a "fanfic" entity rather than a serious canon character like Finn. The show has really leaned on how Fionna likes the idea of being a heroic fighter, but doesn't have any actual combat experience. Part of that could be the memories of Modern Day AU she has instead of the magical adventures, but her episodes in the original show never involved actual fighting. She had love triangles and romantic strife. Actual conflict didn't really have a place in her story. Fionna feels like she's written as season 1 Finn intentionally, like she hasn't learned the same lessons, existing in this irresponsible space where the story has never let her pick the wrong decisions or grow into her own. She's immature in such interesting ways to dig into. Its really damning how she initially treats Farmworld and Winter King worlds as stock adventures that follow strict rules. Gushing over forbidden romances and so on. Her encounter with Winter King forced her to confront seedier, complicated parts of adventures, and she didn't even get the satisfaction of seeing Winter King go into an evil monologue about it. She just has to sit in the fact that she misjudged the situation. Its a really good characterization for the miniseries. I adore it. This might also be reading too far into it, but last week's comment from Prismo of "You never had trouble adventuring in skirts before..." kind of speaks to that idea of the attractive, graceful female hero is what is depicted instead of what's practical and reliable.
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Sep 16, 2023 02:07
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One of those things that seems like it's the show being meta again, Fionna and Cake was always riffing specifically on fanfiction and its own particular tropes and tendencies, including the tendency to jump all over the place tone-wise, including into more adult material, as well as the focus on romantic and sexual topics with characters just assumed to be doing adventure and action stuff as usual just off-screen. Which is fair, really, vanilla Adventure Time also did that with Finn and Jake having tons of offscreen adventures that they'd often just finished or were about to start when the episode begins. But if those episodes with relationship drama ARE her history thus far rather than the unspoken assumed offscreen adventures equal to Finn and Jake, then you're definitely setting up for something different than the masochistic adrenalin junkie we know and love.
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Sep 17, 2023 02:45
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In other news, we’ve got a logo for and some info on the upcoming TMNT series that continues from where Mutant Mayhem left off: https://bleedingcool.com/tv/tales-of-the-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-releases-logo-new-details/ Seems it won’t be out until next year as well
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Sep 19, 2023 17:57
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The new Tiny Toons made me go look back at some of classic Tiny Toons, which is made more interesting by my recently having watched a lot of classic Looney Tunes lately. One of the things that stands out the most is the fixation with anvils. There's really not very many in classic cartoons at all. I'm not sure what the key connection was there. (maybe looking at classical music and seeing the Anvil Chorus?) The whole self-aware aspect of trying to explain and play off of old cartoon tropes doesn't really work out much, a lot of the time it just kinda feels tedious when they're explaining jokes. Structurally, the show itself isn't really much like the old theatrical shorts. They don't play loose with the characters' identities, and there's a lot more emphasis on having coherent plots. Old Looney Tunes often were just strings of gags, and they could often end very abruptly instead of feeling the need to satisfy a plot with a conclusion. Tiny Toons is also more heavily inspired by TV compilation shows with its constant need for framing devices to present the shorts with, often done in the specific style of specific shows. The Bugs Bunny Show was probably a big inspiration, because not only did it have the same sort of framing device, but that's where all the Looney Tunes characters were established as being kinda buddies with eachother, and Bugs becomes the voice of reason center character, which is the position that Buster steps into. When Tiny Toons does references, they can't be like the reference-heavy Looney Tunes because the main characters have to be there, commenting on things or doing impressions. Which I think leads to a more satirical angle. I think they also go broader with their references? There's a lot of classic comedy stuff, which was contemporary to Looney Tunes, but Groucho Marx was 20 years dead by the time of Tiny Toons. It's also still weird to see Saddam Hussein just showing up. Sure there were plenty of old cartoons about Hitler, but I don't think I've ever seen any cartoons touching on like the Korean War. I don't think I've ever seen a cartoon of Eisenhower or Truman like there are of Bush or Clinton. There's an episode where they just run into Dan Quayle, what the hell. There are some episodes that are just kinda bad. I know some people blame the fact that there's a lot of different animation studios, but I feel like sometimes it's just the writing, which maybe a bad animation studio can end up forcing the show to cut things down, but sometimes there's just plain bad ideas. I think the fact that there's so much more emphasis on storytelling makes the full-episode stories work a lot better than the shorts, because there's a lot more time to make something work, get some kind of drama. Time for more nuanced characterization to matter. Visually, I can see how even the bad animation is still clearly following some kind of mandate of what the show was trying to do with animation. The show was all about trying to do squash and stretch and lots of movement, as opposed to the stiffness of 80s cartoons, which the worse animation studios making the characters randomly bounce and spasm their legs still fits. I think maybe the show puts too much emphasis on moving things around all the time, because sometimes jokes don't have time to breath, and posing suffers. I feel like the way they riff on the later Chuck Jones style is weird as well.
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Sep 19, 2023 18:27
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Speaking of Tiny Toons, is there anything worthwhile about the new show? From clips I’ve seen the guy playing Plucky and Hampton is pretty good but I’m not really feeling the new Buster and Babs (also it’s weird they made them siblings since they were literally a couple in the old show and one of their main running gags was the fact they had “No relation”) Also, does Lola appear at all out of curiosity?
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Sep 19, 2023 18:33
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I feel like anvils were a pretty familiar thing in the old Loony Tunes era of cartoons as they were one of the stock heavy objects used. Maybe it was more Tom and Jerry? Idk, but it's something I'd heavily associate with it, same with red sticks of dynamite. S for why there's not cartoons of Vietnam and the Korean War, that's all historical. Cartoons were made by all of the studios at the time to support the war effort and I forget if the federal government paid them to make those or if it was through a program. That's all part of the animation legacy though.
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Sep 19, 2023 18:35
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Xelkelvos posted:I feel like anvils were a pretty familiar thing in the old Loony Tunes era of cartoons as they were one of the stock heavy objects used. Maybe it was more Tom and Jerry? Idk, but it's something I'd heavily associate with it, same with red sticks of dynamite. Yeah I think the anvils come up a lot because that's just what a lot of people associate with Looney Tunes. It's a silly gag and like, what other physical comedy is such visual shorthand for Looney Tunes? The only one I can think of is Wile E. Coyote falling off a cliff only when he realizes the ground he was running on isn't there anymore. Or Elmer Fudd shooting Daffy Duck in the face so he has to fix his bill (but nowadays characters can't wield real guns so that one won't even fly) but again that doesn't come up that much. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Sep 20, 2023 |
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Sep 19, 2023 23:10
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SlothfulCobra posted:I don't think I've ever seen a cartoon of Eisenhower or Truman like there are of Bush or Clinton. There's an episode where they just run into Dan Quayle, what the hell. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HibHeY4UiPU
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Sep 19, 2023 23:45
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Maybe this is even a bit lower than our usual shows we talk about but I've always liked this and I found it recently so I wanted to share it:
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Sep 20, 2023 06:16
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Junpei posted:Maybe this is even a bit lower than our usual shows we talk about but I've always liked this and I found it recently so I wanted to share it: My sister is really passionate about Eeyore for similar reasons.
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Sep 20, 2023 07:26
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Been said that one of the reasons Barney is so hated by those who age a moment out of his target audience is the show is so saccharine and doesn't have any room to deal with negativity. And negativity is a reality for all kinds, much more for some than others, but it's a part of the world we all live in, and media that's meant to teach kids about the world needs to have room for that. It's not just Oscar on Sesame Street alone, the Count has moments of being genuinely scary or at least spooky and weird, and also sings about being lonely and counting to cheer himself up and kill time. And they leaned into it with the death of Mr Hooper as something that happened in the world of the show, and how even happy and smiling Big Bird had to deal with the reality of it, and show why we have mourning and memorials. If anything I feel like the trend with modern cartoons of dealing a more more closely with psychology, trauma and self-awareness is extending that more, especially made by generations who grew up with Very Special Episodes that just don't cut it. Working those themes more naturally into regular characters works so much better, and can work in pretty much any medium and genre.
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Sep 20, 2023 07:55
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We also have Kan-it from Cubix, with his song. "Nobody's positive all day long, it's OK to be negative when things go wrong" (I am partially being facetious because no one but me watched Cubix because of the wonky animation but I liked it so w/e.)
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Sep 20, 2023 18:47
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I decided to give the new Tiny Toons a shot and while I’m not really a big fan of Buster and Babs’ new VAs the rest of the cast isn’t too bad (especially Plucky) and the show as a whole is slightly better than I expected (it picks up around the third episode or so). Also they apparently did put Lola in the series after all (she’s a chef, voiced by Kari Wahlgren, and while not quite Looney Tunes Show level does at least have a unique personality) but only for one episode
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Sep 20, 2023 20:53
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Oddly enough, Buster's new VA isn't bothering me anywhere near as much as them getting rid of the white gloves from his character design. There's just something about a character that looks that close to Bugs Bunny not having white hands that feels...unwholesome.
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Sep 20, 2023 23:01
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It's also weird that Tiny Toons's theme song specifically says the Looney Tunes have been around since 1933, when they started in 1930. It's also not the year that the specific characters in the main Looney Tunes cast started, because Porky game around in 1935 (along with the less successful Beans the cat and Ham and Ex). 1933 is specifically the year that Harman and Ising split with Leon Schlesinger over budgetary disputes, cutting off Bosko, Honey, Foxy, Roxy, and Goopy Geer, because they made sure to retain the rights to all their characters to avoid an Oswald situation. It does include the two years where Buddy was Termite Terrace's only headline character.
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Sep 21, 2023 05:20
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SlothfulCobra posted:It's also weird that Tiny Toons's theme song specifically says the Looney Tunes have been around since 1933, when they started in 1930. It's also not the year that the specific characters in the main Looney Tunes cast started, because Porky game around in 1935 (along with the less successful Beans the cat and Ham and Ex). It's apparently because 1933 is when the Warner cartoon department was founded. https://twitter.com/LooneyTerrace/status/1704155509245276336
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Sep 21, 2023 05:21
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Meanwhile in the new Fionna & Cake, I can’t believe that they killed BMO. And left Baby Finn in Vampire World.
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Sep 21, 2023 12:18
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Funky Valentine posted:It's apparently because 1933 is when the Warner cartoon department was founded. Which makes sense since the ones Harman & Ising did for Warner Bros was under their own independent studio(which is probably why they were so ready to jump ship when they got fed up by Leon*) *Leon Schlesinger is one of the most fascinating figures in American Animation's early decades who wasn't an animator or artist himself, and a good chunk of that definitely came from him being one of those rare businessmen involved in animation who had the common sense to let his artists do their jobs while he handled all the messy financial and studio politics stuff and it's telling that his successors up through the closing of the original studio tried to follow that policy for the most part(well aside from telling them not to do cartoons about bull fights and that resulting in the greatest cartoon about a bull fight ever made) SlothfulCobra posted:It's also weird that Tiny Toons's theme song specifically says the Looney Tunes have been around since 1933, when they started in 1930. It's also not the year that the specific characters in the main Looney Tunes cast started, because Porky game around in 1935 (along with the less successful Beans the cat and Ham and Ex). Bosko & Honey would have been the only characters that it really mattered that they took with them, Foxy & Roxy got retired after a couple shorts because of how blatantly they were copies of Mickey & Minnie and Walt was nice enough to ask them to just knock it off(since Harman & Ising were among Walt's original group of animators) rather than sue them like he could have, as for Goopy Geer well he just got retired after a couple shorts because he wasn't connecting with audiences and this was around the point where they decided that Merrie Melodies didn't need a recurring star like Looney Tunes had with Bosko, well at least for a couple years that is And honestly it barely mattered that Bosko & Honey were taken as they only got used for a couple non WB shorts before Honey got retired completely and Bosko got turned into a completely different in-name-only character(funny how that happened to both him and Oswald, albeit under basically the opposite situation)
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Sep 21, 2023 12:56
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drrockso20 posted:And honestly it barely mattered that Bosko & Honey were taken as they only got used for a couple non WB shorts before Honey got retired completely and Bosko got turned into a completely different in-name-only character(funny how that happened to both him and Oswald, albeit under basically the opposite situation) Honey also got an entire episode devoted to her in the OG Tiny Toons Consequently that’s also where I first heard about the character, were their cartoons any good? Larryb fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Sep 21, 2023 |
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Sep 21, 2023 15:11
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Harman and Ising's failure to keep up their business relationship with Leon Schlesinger basically led to a whole new generation of animators emerging. Schlesinger still had his contract with Warner Brothers after they split, so he needed to just get anybody he could to keep making cartoons for him. Most other animation studios at that point were artist-led, which meant that they were really helmed by one or two people making all the creative decisions. Most famously Walt Disney, but there was also not much room for non-Fleischers to bloom at Fleischer, Paul Terry was master of Terry Toons, Walter Lantz had a hand in everything at Walter Lantz Productions. If somebody wanted to advance, they had to go off on their own to create their own studio. It didn't work out well with Ub Iwerks because while he was a very competent animator, he just wasn't much of a comedy guy at all, so his independent work looks neat, but just isn't very fun. Harman and Ising were trying (and failing) to keep their own independent studio. Schlesinger being a very hands-off guy allowed a bunch of different people with different styles to eventually develop, like Bob Clampett, Chuck Jones, Friz Freling, Frank Tashlin, and Tex Avery. Harman and Ising would later bounce off to MGM who would also end up cultivating a few other animators as well after that didn't really work out either. Alternatively, you could also look at it as the beginning of the full corporatization of cartoons, and while having a separate business guy to do the managing can allow for more open opportunities for creators, it also means that the animation group is always going to be just a few bad execs away from peril. An independent studio developing its own shows can just go looking for another partner, an in-house studio whose CEO decides they're not necessary anymore is just hosed. Larryb posted:Honey also got an entire episode devoted to her in the OG Tiny Toons Eh, kinda middling. They kinda rely too heavily on the novelty of speech in cartoons, and sometimes you have to worry about possible racism. Although the fun thing about looking into old theatrical shorts is that they're all 5-8 minutes and often pretty easy to find online, so you can easily take a quick look yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2FJvx9T5IY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ7oc7oe5T8 https://archive.org/details/bip44458221 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQcago5r-Qk After Bosko's MGM redesign, you have to reckon a lot more with 1930s depictions of black people, but aside from that, I just don't like the attempts at being cute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL02zAjTovU Tiny Toons kinda makes up a lot to make Honey and Bosko less problematic and make Honey into more of a role model for Babs. I think the way they make Bosko into a more generic dog character makes me think of Bimbo from Betty Boop cartoons, and Betty Boop actually was the sort of successful, independently billed female character that they would've wanted for Babs to look up to anyways, although Warner didn't have the rights to her. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSm07stzHZQ
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Sep 21, 2023 18:16
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Come to think of it, was there any other character WB could have possibly turned to as a mentor figure for Babs at the time (Lola wouldn't exist for a few more years and it wasn't until the Looney Tunes Show where they finally made her good, she was just kind of there in the Space Jam sequel and her Looniversity counterpart is alright)?
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Sep 21, 2023 18:27
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Been said that one of the reasons Barney is so hated by those who age a moment out of his target audience is the show is so saccharine and doesn't have any room to deal with negativity. And negativity is a reality for all kinds, much more for some than others, but it's a part of the world we all live in, and media that's meant to teach kids about the world needs to have room for that. It's not just Oscar on Sesame Street alone, the Count has moments of being genuinely scary or at least spooky and weird, and also sings about being lonely and counting to cheer himself up and kill time. And they leaned into it with the death of Mr Hooper as something that happened in the world of the show, and how even happy and smiling Big Bird had to deal with the reality of it, and show why we have mourning and memorials. yeah. i actually remember "arcs" and poo poo from sesame street. like slimey going to space and something about telly being a neurotic weirdo
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Sep 21, 2023 20:30
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Larryb posted:Come to think of it, was there any other character WB could have possibly turned to as a mentor figure for Babs at the time (Lola wouldn't exist for a few more years and it wasn't until the Looney Tunes Show where they finally made her good, she was just kind of there in the Space Jam sequel and her Looniversity counterpart is alright)? Well Granny actually wouldn't have been a bad choice if they emphasized more on how she was in her early shorts where she actively played a role in keeping Sylvester away from Tweetie and thus could be tricky and violent, or they could have used Witch Hazel and done some stuff with how yes she was always in the villain role but she was also one of Bugs' more competent villains, hell they could have even used Penelope Pussycat or Petunia Pig and done a Baby Herman style Toon Actor subversion and reveal that their onscreen personality is just an act and how they are offscreen fits a lot more into what Babs was looking for in a mentor
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Sep 21, 2023 20:54
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drrockso20 posted:Well Granny actually wouldn't have been a bad choice if they emphasized more on how she was in her early shorts where she actively played a role in keeping Sylvester away from Tweetie and thus could be tricky and violent, or they could have used Witch Hazel and done some stuff with how yes she was always in the villain role but she was also one of Bugs' more competent villains, hell they could have even used Penelope Pussycat or Petunia Pig and done a Baby Herman style Toon Actor subversion and reveal that their onscreen personality is just an act and how they are offscreen fits a lot more into what Babs was looking for in a mentor Ah yes, so why bring back Honey of all characters then?
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Sep 21, 2023 20:57
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Fionna and Cake is so good. Like it’s arguably totally superfluous official fanfiction AND it’s a multiverse show in a media landscape saturated with multiverse bullshit yet it’s just so well-made and funny that it still manages to stand out.
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Sep 21, 2023 22:18
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Andrew_1985 posted:Meanwhile in the new Fionna & Cake, I can’t believe that they killed BMO. And left Baby Finn in Vampire World. It was fine when they killed literally everyone except BMO. But that's just going too far!
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Sep 22, 2023 06:53
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Larryb posted:Ah yes, so why bring back Honey of all characters then? That is the question, especially since she wouldn't even have been all that unknown to the child audience since Bosko era shorts were still part of the "B-tier" syndication packages for Looney Tunes until the early 90's to the point that when the syndication package Nickelodeon had updated around 1992* to freshen the lineup they went out of their way to mention in their advertising that Bosko wasn't part of the rotation anymore *and would see two more rotations in 1995 and 1998 before WB stopped renewing the contract with Nick in 1999(and a year or two later stopped syndicating Looney Tunes entirely until they randomly started doing so again a couple years ago to MeTV)
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Sep 22, 2023 07:50
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this talk about classic looney tunes reminds me of something i wanted to ask for a while. there was poster who used to post in animation related threads in this subforum all the time a looong time ago. i'm pretty sure his name was Matt Wilson? i recall he seemed to know a lot about animation (hence why i was reminded of him). is that guy still around? under a different name or did he just disappear?
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Sep 23, 2023 03:04
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Pretty sure it's likely some animation nerds just wanted to use an old character as a fun in-joke and it's easy to read too much into it. Like all the duck lore deep cuts from DuckTales. People like exploring the history of things and bringing old stuff back to introduce to a new generation.
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Sep 23, 2023 04:13
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