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Christian churches are traditionally in basilicas which is basically a shopping mall
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Sep 20, 2023 23:03
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ive heard that roko’s basilica is haunting and unforgettable
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Sep 20, 2023 23:06
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Any church that doesn't have stained glass windows is automatically heretical regardless of any theological complexities.
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Sep 20, 2023 23:47
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Grand Fromage posted:Also if you were the type who would be hauling around a bunch of gold, you were probably using bank deposits and credit instead of coins. Did they do that in the Roman era? Because I know that towards the end of medieval times you had the rise of banks in the form of widespread merchant republics and also knightly orders trying to assist pilgrims by allowing them to put in a deposit and withdraw at their destination. I never heard of anything earlier than that. Or was it a thing that was more popular during the height of the empire and either Christianity or the decay of the empire put an end to so it had to be reinvented? Triskelli posted:That seems real dumb, since even a debased coin could buy you more stuff than the gold or silver that's in it. Not that it didn't happen, but just that it seems like more trouble than spending it. I assume that depends on whatever state that created the coin, how well they're doing, how respected they are. It seems like there were concerns out there about currency debasement every so often, so re-minting would be a way to reset things. And a big ol' state like the Byzantine Empire may get its coins accepted far and wide, but some dipshit dead king of nowheresania a thousand miles away, why should you trust his coins to be any good? Also when coins get cut up too much, I feel like people might not want to accept them at face value any more. I know there was a trick of crimping the edges to snag some extra metal. But also every so often people are going to just want to have gold or silver to use for jewelry and stuff, and that's a simple way to get the stuff.
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Sep 21, 2023 00:13
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Going off of basilicas I just just read the entire Constantine Wikipedia page and boy that is a doozy. He is antisemitic persecutions are described in the passive voice Assassinating his son and wife is treated as a who knows mystery ? Maybe they were loving ? Also this is added in with no citation 
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Sep 21, 2023 00:47
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SlothfulCobra posted:Did they do that in the Roman era? Because I know that towards the end of medieval times you had the rise of banks in the form of widespread merchant republics and also knightly orders trying to assist pilgrims by allowing them to put in a deposit and withdraw at their destination. I never heard of anything earlier than that. Yep. They had deposits and loans and credit and all the stuff you'd expect. Shipping insurance was a major financial institution too, and selling stock in companies as well as specific ventures. A lot of temples provided banking services, but there were also just banks too. It does seem to have disappeared in late antiquity. Either because the economy didn't support it anymore, the fact that a lot of banking was done in temples that were now pagan and bad, or some of both.
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Sep 21, 2023 00:55
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Grand Fromage posted:Yep. They had deposits and loans and credit and all the stuff you'd expect. Shipping insurance was a major financial institution too, and selling stock in companies as well as specific ventures. A lot of temples provided banking services, but there were also just banks too. Hell, Sumerians were doing commodity futures trading, leveraging grain debt in all sorts of speculative ways. Cuneiform tablets are loaded with complicated financial transactions based on expected grain harvests and deliveries.
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Sep 21, 2023 01:30
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Deteriorata posted:Hell, Sumerians were doing commodity futures trading, leveraging grain debt in all sorts of speculative ways. Cuneiform tablets are loaded with complicated financial transactions based on expected grain harvests and deliveries. Yep. A lot of these ideas are kind of obvious and get re-invented whenever a society's economy gets large and sophisticated enough. Once you have ventures that cost more than a person can reasonably supply or even physically carry around, you have to start getting creative.
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Sep 21, 2023 02:13
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I'm personally in the camp that money & debt are older than writing (though not in a strict mechanics sense - it looks to me like money and debt and such existed in Sumeria before cuneiform developed, but I can't speak to e.g. Mesoamerica).
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Sep 21, 2023 03:00
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A medium of exchange is a very useful tool
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Sep 21, 2023 03:03
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euphronius posted:Christian churches are traditionally in basilicas which is basically a shopping mall If this is in jest, fine, but if not: no. The basilica was not a thing for a long time. "Churches" were not what we think of as church buildings right now. Early christians assembled in large homes or sort of communal residences with a gathering room. With Rome, the argentarii are fascinating because they were government contractors. These contractors were private companies or individuals, but contracted to the state, offering money exchange, money counting, foreign currency, various credits and debt solutions to the public. From what i understand the rich didn't really use the argentarii. Argentarii even competed for contracts, but were not really used by the rich or powerful, but acted as a service to the lower classes. There were also the Mensarii who were state-bankers and not private contractors, but I am more unclear in how they were used. I know that the Mensarii were able to offer significant mortgage-type loans to low class farmers and tradesmen who would otherwise be far removed and well beyond that money. Edit: now that I look at wikipedia, it says Roman bankers and contractors were plebeian origin and not optimates, which I was not aware off. I guess I gotta buy the book in the footnote. Edit edit: gently caress I ordered the book. Banking and Business in the Roman World by Jean Andreau. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Sep 21, 2023 |
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Sep 21, 2023 03:21
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Well yeah they were repressed until the 300s
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Sep 21, 2023 03:22
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euphronius posted:Christian churches are traditionally in basilicas which is basically a shopping mall That’s not what a basilica means in a Catholic context. It’s just a designation that means that building has some sort of significance.
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Sep 21, 2023 06:57
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to be fair, if our (German) basilicas tried to become shopping malls, at least they would have more people in them 
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Sep 21, 2023 07:19
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euphronius posted:A medium of exchange is a very useful tool I got a co-worker who near everyday talks about how the dollar's gonna collapse when Biden moves us all to federal bitcoins, she's playing that redpill revolt podcast everyday she ain't coherent, and we're going to have to move back to bartering and she's preparing. I just look at her and eventually point out that we're both baker's working for a billion dollar corp, we don't got any control of the inputs for our labor. I don't have a flour mill or the acres to grow it, I can't make you a loving loaf of bread despite having the skills to do it unless I got some flour. So either we as a society need an exchange medium or godawful future contracts where I'm forced to use my labor in exchange for a portion of the output in exchange for the input which puts my labor at a severe bargaining disadvantage. It's exhausting.
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Sep 21, 2023 08:54
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I've got friends who go on about money being not real and how we should get rid of it. I normally tune them out until they come back to a reasonable topic.
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Sep 21, 2023 09:18
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Squizzle posted:that is an ambitious reading of the text Well, that's because the Gospels don't explain the context of why they were exchanging coins and selling doves and other animals in the Temple. Edgar Allan Ho is correct, the Temple had not become a shopping mall, people were selling animals to sacrifice during Passover because Jews from all across Judaea and further afield--who could not feasibly bring animals with them to Jerusalem--needed animals to sacrifice. And, as EAH said, it was blasphemous to use Roman coinage, so they had moneychangers to exchange Roman coins for acceptable Jewish ones. For a fee, of course. So Jesus was mad that people were profiting within and because of the Temple cult, but it wasn't like people were heading up to the Temple to buy new drip.
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Sep 21, 2023 12:46
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Gaius Marius posted:I got a co-worker who near everyday talks about how the dollar's gonna collapse when Biden moves us all to federal bitcoins, she's playing that redpill revolt podcast everyday she ain't coherent, and we're going to have to move back to bartering and she's preparing. I just look at her and eventually point out that we're both baker's working for a billion dollar corp, we don't got any control of the inputs for our labor. I don't have a flour mill or the acres to grow it, I can't make you a loving loaf of bread despite having the skills to do it unless I got some flour. So either we as a society need an exchange medium or godawful future contracts where I'm forced to use my labor in exchange for a portion of the output in exchange for the input which puts my labor at a severe bargaining disadvantage. Well then when this inevitably happens (lol) she'll have the joy of being right and also surely when the collapse comes everyone will hate Biden as much as she presumably does. I had a crazy conspiracy lady I worked with for a while and it was indescribably unpleasant. You have my sympathies. I wonder what kind of things these people would have fixated on in the ancient world. Aside from the inscrutable and perfidious Jews / Saracens / lepers, I mean. Like, was there some dude who was completely and totally convinced that Antinous had faked his death and was still alive and some guy that he knew said he saw Antinous changing horses several towns over?
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Sep 21, 2023 12:50
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Mad Hamish posted:Well then when this inevitably happens (lol) she'll have the joy of being right and also surely when the collapse comes everyone will hate Biden as much as she presumably does. Nero truthers. A couple random guys rose to prominence in the generation after Nero’s death because they somehow managed to convince people they were him. At least the time frame was still remotely plausible, but even in Augustine’s day people apparently still believed Nero would be coming back at some point!
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Sep 21, 2023 12:56
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skasion posted:but even in Augustine’s day people apparently still believed Nero would be coming back at some point! The Marble Neckbeard
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Sep 21, 2023 12:58
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Mad Hamish posted:I wonder what kind of things these people would have fixated on in the ancient world. Aside from the inscrutable and perfidious Jews / Saracens / lepers, I mean. Like, was there some dude who was completely and totally convinced that Antinous had faked his death and was still alive and some guy that he knew said he saw Antinous changing horses several towns over? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero_Redivivus_legend You could probably make a fair comparison between these guys and the Q nuts who think JFK is about to come back, if you squint edit: skasion beat me to it 
Owl at Home fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Sep 21, 2023 |
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Sep 21, 2023 13:03
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Also mystery cults and early Christian sects contained a lot of wingnuttery of which we can now access only glimpses Like the Elchasaites who apparently claimed they received their revelations from the Son of God, who was an angel 96 miles tall, accompanied by his sister, the Holy Ghost, also 96 miles tall.
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Sep 21, 2023 13:15
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Gaius Marius posted:I got a co-worker who near everyday talks about how the dollar's gonna collapse when Biden moves us all to federal bitcoins, she's playing that redpill revolt podcast everyday she ain't coherent, and we're going to have to move back to bartering and she's preparing. I just look at her and eventually point out that we're both baker's working for a billion dollar corp, we don't got any control of the inputs for our labor. I don't have a flour mill or the acres to grow it, I can't make you a loving loaf of bread despite having the skills to do it unless I got some flour. So either we as a society need an exchange medium or godawful future contracts where I'm forced to use my labor in exchange for a portion of the output in exchange for the input which puts my labor at a severe bargaining disadvantage.
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Sep 21, 2023 14:02
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skasion posted:Nero truthers. A couple random guys rose to prominence in the generation after Nero’s death because they somehow managed to convince people they were him. At least the time frame was still remotely plausible, but even in Augustine’s day people apparently still believed Nero would be coming back at some point! I saw the secretly-still-alive Antinous and Nero making babies in the closet, and I saw one of the babies, and the baby looked at me and called me a credulous fool for supporting the greens over the blues.
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Sep 21, 2023 14:20
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Vahakyla posted:Edit: now that I look at wikipedia, it says Roman bankers and contractors were plebeian origin and not optimates, which I was not aware off. I guess I gotta buy the book in the footnote. This is a little thing, but I wouldn't put too much weight into Patrician/Plebeian divisions here; much of what comes down to us about the early Republic is highly contradictory on the topic, and by the Middle Republic the distinction has effectively no meaning at all beyond candidacy for the Plebeian Tribunate. What matters at that point is much more wealth and status based (see the emergence of the nobiles) rather than any hereditary division going back to the Kings.
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Sep 21, 2023 15:16
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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skasion posted:Also mystery cults and early Christian sects contained a lot of wingnuttery of which we can now access only glimpses Did that develop into a bloody schism with those heretics who believed the Son of God and Holy Spirit were merely 95 miles tall  
zoux fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Sep 21, 2023 |
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Sep 21, 2023 17:09
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zoux posted:Did that develop into a bloody schism with those heretics who believed the Son of God and Holy Spirit were merely 95 miles tall I mean its clearly fantasy but also p funny to portray 3 very famously maritime civilizations as having pretty minimal coastlines.
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Sep 21, 2023 18:04
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Banking is one of those things that doesn't filter into Roman pop-history as much as it should, in large part because of its disproportionately minor role in Roman works of literature and history, which were written by and large by aristocrats who had an aversion to talking about vulgar topics like commerce. Most of the direct evidence for Roman commerce comes from papyrology and archaeology, and both of those fields are a lot more technical, and more insular, than traditional methods of Roman history, and tend to be overlooked in pop-history.
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Sep 21, 2023 19:13
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Tulip posted:I mean its clearly fantasy but also p funny to portray 3 very famously maritime civilizations as having pretty minimal coastlines. And also to show the coastlines with two-masted, square-rigged ships when all 3 of them were famous for rather different ship types.
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Sep 21, 2023 19:53
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Buddhist monasteries got big into banking and it was really hilarious (to me) to read through Chinese and Asian history and realize that a lotta dynasties followed the same "religious minority with wealth" pattern that you see in Europe in regards to Jewish moneylenders. Encouragement, oh poo poo we're in debt and need cash, purge the monastaries and seize wealth, oh poo poo we're in debt and need cash, encourage buddishm and get more money, etc. https://www.asianstudies.org/public...dern-east-asia/
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Sep 21, 2023 20:21
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CrypticFox posted:. Most of the direct evidence for Roman commerce comes from papyrology and archaeology, Those Egyptian sources are pretty well known, everyone has heard of the banks of the Nile.
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Sep 21, 2023 20:47
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Beards Pompeii goes into the nitty gritty of the medium sized town banking from the evidence discovered Iirc one of the bankers was an ex slave who had an office and they found some of his accounting books
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Sep 21, 2023 20:49
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I can’t put it enough into words how much mundane government public worker bureaucracy of Rome hypes me up.
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Sep 21, 2023 21:55
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Sep 21, 2023 22:02
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Tell me more about chapter 7
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Sep 21, 2023 22:17
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Iirc she talks about the brothels
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Sep 21, 2023 22:59
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This is the town that gave us “goodbye wondrous femininity” after all
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Sep 21, 2023 23:09
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Funny I associate Wei more with Rome and Wu more with Greece. But on this map they're switched. Shu Han doesn't seem Viking to me at all.
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Sep 22, 2023 01:01
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Ivar, named « Boneless » after his father Ragnar spiked him headfirst into the ground and broke him
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Sep 22, 2023 01:21
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Arglebargle III posted:Funny I associate Wei more with Rome and Wu more with Greece. But on this map they're switched. Shu Han doesn't seem Viking to me at all. If Liu Bei were a Viking he would have wound up in Greenland
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Sep 22, 2023 01:37
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