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Andrast posted:I don't think being able to cast a single 3rd level fireball when you are one level away from 5th level spells is particularly strong. It's fine but not really overpowered or anything, if anything this is will bring more variety to the archetypes since people are capable of using a much wider range of spells from their archetype slots. I don't really think its overpowered because I think spellcasting kind of sucks right now in PF2e and I'd rather play a fighter. I threw out fireball, but what about a well-placed slow. There's just a bunch of good spells on all the lists that being able to have them all in your back pocket is awesome. If they are going to homogenize spellcasting like this, I really hope they bring wizard up to the standards of the other spellcasters, mostly in focus spells.
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Sep 22, 2023 14:26
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gurragadon posted:I don't really think its overpowered because I think spellcasting kind of sucks right now in PF2e and I'd rather play a fighter. I threw out fireball, but what about a well-placed slow. There's just a bunch of good spells on all the lists that being able to have them all in your back pocket is awesome. This is extremely explicitly and entirely the whole point of what they are doing with the new colleges in particular, and with spellcasters in general.
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Sep 22, 2023 14:32
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That sounds pretty good, I am really excited to see the full package of changes in November because this slow drip is driving me nuts. From what has been shown so far, I think it will be an increase in caster power and overall fun in playing spellcasters. Focus spells on wizards seems kind of weird thematically for wizards because they are already obtaining their spells by studying and not from an external source. But that's not very hard to change thematically to like quick spells or something named differently and "refocus" by writing out a quick spell on a notepad or something.
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Sep 22, 2023 14:47
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I imagine a focus spell on a wizard as thematically being some particularly fundamental theorem of magic that forms the basis for a lot of their particular college or discipline (explaining why they can cast it so frequently/easily).
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Sep 22, 2023 14:50
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gurragadon posted:I don't really think its overpowered because I think spellcasting kind of sucks right now in PF2e and I'd rather play a fighter. I threw out fireball, but what about a well-placed slow. There's just a bunch of good spells on all the lists that being able to have them all in your back pocket is awesome. Yes having more spells is good, just like having any other strong archetype is good. Chevy Slyme posted:This is extremely explicitly and entirely the whole point of what they are doing with the new colleges in particular, and with spellcasters in general. The one improved wizard focus spell they have shown us so far was just a minor buff and really nothing that would make the class much better. Andrast fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 22, 2023 14:50
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:One thing that's surprised me a bit about 2e, coming almost directly from 4e, is that there doesn't seem to be any sort of 1hp mook or cannon-fodder type model for enemies. There's the weak template, but still it seems like the Pathfinder Society adventures I've been playing/running tend to have only 2-3 enemies (against a 4-5 person group) all the time because of it. I've been thinking about this and I've come to the conclusion that PF2E's three action economy would make it pretty uniquely suited to minion-type enemies, even without easy sources of AoE for every class. Basically you'd have to add some riders like 'attacking minions does not increase your MAP' and/or 'defeating a minion refunds one action', but I think it could work as an optional ruleset.
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Sep 22, 2023 15:04
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Cyouni posted:I actually have felt like they were too strong, especially when I was swashbuckling. Electric Arc, mainly, but that's besides the point. at Level 3 your wizard's electric arc does 2d4+INT mod of electrical damage. Assuming the Wizard's INT mod was 4 that's 5 damage from the dice, which means he rolled relatively well and that the two enemies apparently failed their reflex saves, which isn't a given. 2d4+4 on two targets for two actions vs 3d6+1 single target for two actions (assuming you took one to get panache) doesn't seem like it comes out unfairly favoring the spell caster, especially given that the martial attack in this scenario has a lot more possibilities for further interactions and enhancements, whereas that electric arc is about as good as it's ever going to get. Clerical Terrors fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 22, 2023 16:52
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if all the wizard focus spells are as uninspired as their example it'll be really sad.
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Sep 22, 2023 16:57
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Wild that it took blowing up spell schools for people to realize that wizards are a boring-rear end uninspired concept.
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Sep 22, 2023 17:04
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Dick Burglar posted:Wild that it took blowing up spell schools for people to realize that wizards are a boring-rear end uninspired concept. Complaints about the wizard being boring in pf2 have been pretty constant
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Sep 22, 2023 17:11
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Clerical Terrors posted:at Level 3 your wizard's electric arc does 2d4+INT mod of electrical damage. Assuming the Wizard's INT mod was 4 that's 5 damage from the dice, which means he rolled relatively well and that the two enemies apparently failed their reflex saves, which isn't a given. 2d4+4 on two targets for two actions vs 3d6+1 single target for two actions (assuming you took one to get panache) doesn't seem like it comes out unfairly favoring the spell caster, especially given that the martial attack in this scenario has a lot more possibilities for further interactions and enhancements, whereas that electric arc is about as good as it's ever going to get. Five damage on 2d4 is exactly average, not “rolled relatively well”
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Sep 22, 2023 17:14
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gurragadon posted:The change to having only one spellcasting modifier that is your best is a huge change, especially for free archetype games. From what I understand, it's not one spellcasting modifier that's your best, it's the proficiency. If you're doing wizard/cleric, you still need the Wisdom for cleric.
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Sep 22, 2023 17:31
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Cyouni posted:From what I understand, it's not one spellcasting modifier that's your best, it's the proficiency. If you're doing wizard/cleric, you still need the Wisdom for cleric. Correct
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Sep 22, 2023 17:37
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Chevy Slyme posted:Five damage on 2d4 is exactly average, not “rolled relatively well” Yeah true, I might be projecting a bit given my own horrible luck with damage rolls on d4s
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Sep 22, 2023 17:56
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Contextually, he actually rolled high in that particular instance, and they were up on elevated platforms so it was hard to reach them with melee. And because they were lower level, it was easier for them to fail the Ref save so it was consistent damage. So yes, it was inevitable that the no-effort cantrip shines when compared to the melee attack that required a skill success beforehand.
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Sep 22, 2023 18:15
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Swasbucklers are also kind of undertuned compared to most other martials before they get to their very good higher level feats and can make their skill checks more reliably
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Sep 22, 2023 18:31
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Swashbucklers are garbage before they get mastery in a skill. They also get zero choice in which skills they are improving at levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 15, and 17 due to needing panache. They really need to automatically advance either acrobatics or their secondary skill for free. The degree to which they are hobbled fighting higher level enemies sucks, yet their features are mostly centered around single target damage. Gymnasts can't even take strength as their primary ability score! Sure, the level 10 feat is nice when you already have panache but that means you aren't spending it and half your class features basically don't exist. They are the worst class I've seen levels 1-4. I'd much rather play any spellcaster (or even an alchemist) at early levels. Even the Inventor was better at my table and they are commonly regarded as the worst class in the game. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 22, 2023 18:45
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Acrobat dedication is nearly mandatory Swash.
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Sep 22, 2023 18:51
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Honestly, the fact that Electric Arc compares relatively favourably to just generic shortbow archery is also something to note. If the party rogue picked up a composite shortbow and used it, that Electric Arc would still be generically better (within 30 feet, obviously). 1d4+4 vs at best 1d6+1 clearly is better for one of these, and 2d4+4 or 3d4+4 vs 2d6+1 really makes the archer hope they're critting.
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Sep 22, 2023 18:53
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Yeah and just standing there shooting a generic shortbow without any class features to make it better is also a bad idea and you should avoid doing it outside of specific situations because your combat impact will be very low
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Sep 22, 2023 19:01
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Harold Fjord posted:My gm has been very generous with our beastmaster monk then. I thought he seemed overpowered A year on from giving more than a level 16 feat to a level 4 character (two wolves at once), the GM is deeply regretting his decision.
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Sep 22, 2023 19:04
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Cyouni posted:Honestly, the fact that Electric Arc compares relatively favourably to just generic shortbow archery is also something to note. If the party rogue picked up a composite shortbow and used it, that Electric Arc would still be generically better (within 30 feet, obviously). 1d4+4 vs at best 1d6+1 clearly is better for one of these, and 2d4+4 or 3d4+4 vs 2d6+1 really makes the archer hope they're critting. is this a bad thing, what is important to note about this
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Sep 22, 2023 20:27
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Electric Arc's lenient targeting and 1d4+4 damage makes it better than pre-revision focus spells and spell slots before level 3. It is a large part of why arcane and primal spellcasters are boring to play at low levels. Moving power away from cantrips and towards focus spells and spell slots is actually cool and good. Removing ability modifiers from cantrips prevents them from being too good at level 1 while also allowing for more granularity. The new acid cantrip wouldn't be able to exist if cantrips added ability modifier to damage. Edit: Spellcasters should spend some of their starting gold on scrolls so they can do more cool stuff before running out of magic. They don't need to save up for striking weapons. Except electric arc is busted, you just end up spamming cantrips, and you never learn that consumables are important. Cantrips currently teach bad play habits and encourage play that is frankly boring as hell. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 22, 2023 20:36
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KPC_Mammon posted:Electric Arc's lenient targeting and 1d4+4 damage makes it better than pre-revision focus spells and spell slots before level 3. It is a large part of why arcane and primal spellcasters are boring to play at low levels. It's a fine change assuming Paizo actually goes through with giving every class access to good focus spells.
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Sep 22, 2023 20:44
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KPC_Mammon posted:Electric Arc's lenient targeting and 1d4+4 damage makes it better than pre-revision focus spells and spell slots before level 3. It is a large part of why arcane and primal spellcasters are boring to play at low levels. yeah if they do a huge overhaul of spells and class features it's good. it remains to be seen if that will actually happens. they're mostly happy with the wizard so i sorta assume they won't. starting gold for a level 1 is 15 gold. a level 1 scroll is 4 gold.
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Sep 22, 2023 20:53
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Buy 2 scrolls of heal and 1 of magic weapon is all I'm saying.
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Sep 22, 2023 21:01
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No magic user in any of my games has ever bought or used a scroll.
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Sep 22, 2023 21:05
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Gymnast Swashbuckler is all about Derring-Do. Then you get roll twice keep highest on Trips, Shoves and Grapples. I watched a Gymnast Swashbuckler followed by 2 Martials waltz through Strength of Thousands, just Tripping every tough opponent and getting 3 free attacks when they stood up. Their entire culture was about Attack of Opportunity, it was triggered when the bad guy stood up, or tried to move away or cast a spell, I never failed to see it triggered some way.
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Sep 22, 2023 21:05
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appropriatemetaphor posted:No magic user in any of my games has ever bought or used a scroll. I've done it a couple of times as a rogue and it failed every single time which kind of bummed me out on using them. Especially because it tends to eat an entire turn of actions The one guy I see using them more consistently is our Psychic in Gatewalkers, but he mostly uses the ones we find in loot and doesn't go out of his way to purchase any. Clerical Terrors fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 22, 2023 21:09
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As a spellcaster buying scrolls is pretty good As a level 1 spellcaster it is not and instead you should probably buy food, clothes and tools because you're broke as hell
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Sep 22, 2023 21:13
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appropriatemetaphor posted:No magic user in any of my games has ever bought or used a scroll. It took until literally the very last boss fight in the last chapter of the Outlaws game I ran for all of my players to actually use a consumable in a fight. "But what if I need it later-itis" is REAL STRONG
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Sep 22, 2023 21:32
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I'd like to get our party scrolls and potions, come to think of it. We each got 4 gold for the ooze errand, and I'm wondering if, between the four of us, there'd be a really good way to spend it.
ZZT the Fifth fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Sep 22, 2023 |
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Sep 22, 2023 22:42
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Gwaihir posted:It took until literally the very last boss fight in the last chapter of the Outlaws game I ran for all of my players to actually use a consumable in a fight. "But what if I need it later-itis" is REAL STRONG In both a campaign I have run and a campaign I'm currently playing in we've house-ruled that single-use trinkets are instead 1/day and players STILL don't use them (although a decent chunk of the time its just out of forgetfulness). I think our monk with a Wolf Fang is the lone exception.
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Sep 22, 2023 23:02
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it feels kind of ridiculous that you have to roll a check to use a scroll if you're not a magic user, at least for low level spells. makes a little more sense for high level high fantasy magic stuff but causing a magical scroll to reconfigure its text into the windows blue screen is very funny
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Sep 22, 2023 23:07
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Andrast posted:Yeah and just standing there shooting a generic shortbow without any class features to make it better is also a bad idea and you should avoid doing it outside of specific situations because your combat impact will be very low I mean, try comparing the average to the flurry ranger as well. It compares well enough to the precision ranger as well. And this is a shortbow on any Dex martial with maxed Dex, the character that should be able to actually use it. But nah, any arcane/primal caster is better than you within 30ft.
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Sep 23, 2023 00:24
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As a player who has basically never used a consumable, a major hurdle for me is that it feels like such a hit to your actions to juggle them out. Only one I ever got much use out of was a Necklace of Fireballs, but even that only got a few goes before the static DC on it got too low to feel like bothering with. We're doing Strength of Thousands, and it rarely feels like we have enough heads up before an encounter that pre-buffing with something specific feels viable.
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Sep 23, 2023 03:31
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Consumables are tools to solve problems and if there are no problems for them to solve players don’t use them. If there are no sudden unexpected falls, no one needs a snap leaf. If there are no insane poisons no one needs antivenom. Also antivenom is crazy good
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Sep 23, 2023 04:10
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I always drop a bunch of over the curve consumables for my players. On level consumables are often pretty bad since the action cost to use one is very harsh unless you are in a situation where it would be perfect. If the consumable is a bit higher level than the party then it suddenly becomes really impactful, doubly so if you drop them with some knowledge of future enemies.
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Sep 23, 2023 05:16
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Dick Burglar posted:Wild that it took blowing up spell schools for people to realize that wizards are a boring-rear end uninspired concept. Wizard is the default magic user. Most other casters are "what if wizard but [twist]?" Of course it's the most boring. Wizard's defining feature is that he has a book. And he could lose the book, which would be pretty inconvenient. Pay extra for a special book or bag so your book isn't ruined if you fall in the water. sugar free jazz posted:if all the wizard focus spells are as uninspired as their example it'll be really sad. What would be a good focus spell? My group has a fire elemental sorcerer and her focus spell seems dumb as hell. quote:Elemental Toss  Meanwhile the Ignition cantrip exists quote:Ignition Looks like the only reason to ever use that focus spell is that it takes just 1 action instead of 2, so it is useful if you have a spare action lying around.
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Sep 23, 2023 09:26
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Looks like it scales in damage quicker when heightened, but yeah apart from that it's not wonderful
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Sep 23, 2023 12:06
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