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OwlFancier posted:The police in the US are already armed to the teeth and people commit mass shootings all the time. Police, however heavily armed, are not an effective deterrant against mass violence. I’m not sure the situation with mass violence is comparable between the US and here. I totally agree that in the vast majority of situations the police are wrong to be shooting people and deserve to be prosecuted as well as held to a higher standard, I just don’t think they should never, ever under any circumstances do it. Terrorism is still a thing that happens in the UK, and if I or a family member were hurt or killed in such an incident and armed police had stood by rather than stopping me being suddenly full of machete shaped holes, I’d be quite mad about it to say the least. I reckon you would too tbh man.
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Sep 25, 2023 18:09
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I would be rather more annoyed at all the people producing the general state of the world which leads people to go on murder sprees. I don't, honestly, expect to be protected by cops at this point. It isn't what they're for. My life is more likely to be made worse by a cop than saved by it. Besides I think a trickle of fired cops is an acceptable price to pay if stops them killing a few people.
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Sep 25, 2023 18:14
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cops killed someone they shouldn't have, once again, under even murkier circumstances than duggan or de menezes, to the point the scuffers couldn't cover it up or control the narrative and a cop might even face very limited consequences for their actions of straight up shooting someone to death this runs at slight odds with all the other people they shot under incredibly murky circumstances and blatantly got away with it by doing things like having the "independent" police complaints commission run a vicious and racially coded hit piece before the victim was even on the morgue slab as a result a few other cops made noises about not being a pork banger anymore and they should be allowed to kill easier because it made them sad otherwise and the press rolled with it because no-one was arming bully xl dogs with zombie knives coated in mephedrone that day and suella deville wanted to play at politics is that about the long and the short of it? or just pie in the sky thinking?
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Sep 25, 2023 18:16
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DesperateDan posted:cops killed someone they shouldn't have, once again, under even murkier circumstances than duggan or de menezes, to the point the scuffers couldn't cover it up or control the narrative and a cop might even face very limited consequences for their actions of straight up shooting someone to death That’s pretty much the long, short and tall of it, yep.
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Sep 25, 2023 18:31
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If I was approached by armed members of one of the most notorious gangs in the country, it's members with a long and public history of deadly violence and rape, I would hope to be able to use my general right as a member of the public to use deadly force in my own self defence.
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Sep 25, 2023 18:39
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BREAKING: Notorious Gang Member Crushed by Amateur JCB Enthusiast
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Sep 25, 2023 18:41
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I'm happy with armed police being arrested and charged with murder if they murder someone. They're trained not to do that. And if the other armed police can't handle that condition, we can hire new armed police.
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Sep 25, 2023 18:41
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Sep 25, 2023 18:53
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If I were being stabbed to death, I would simply tut at the state of the world that led to this situation
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Sep 25, 2023 19:00
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Jakabite posted:Eh, if I was one of the people being chased about by the knife wielding mass murderer with the explosive vest I’d be quite annoyed if they didn’t shoot that person as soon as possible. In general police shouldn’t have guns (well; they shouldn’t exist, but here we are), but I think it’s a bit hyperbolic to say there are zero situations where armed police should be able to shoot someone. If this was the case it wouldn’t be too hard to get hold of a firearm and just start blasting; and there wouldn’t be a ton to be done about you until you ran out of ammo. Obviously I think police in general are bloodthirsty bastards but I think it’s a bit of a case of political theory taking precedence over practical reality to say that never, ever shoot anyone no matter what is sensible. You'd probably be grateful if they didn't shoot straight away as anyone with a real suicide vest would likely have it wired to a dead man's switch. Sometimes there's even a second person with a remote detonator in case the poor kid strapped to the bomb chickens out. The standard procedure is to clear everyone the gently caress away from the suspect as quickly as possible and determine if it's a viable device. I'd imagine de-escalation is sometimes possible, once the suspect realises they're done for and nobody but them is going to get exploded. Shooting the suspect in a crowd of people and crossing fingers in the hope his vest malfunctions isn't the way to go.
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Sep 25, 2023 19:03
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The whole argument is bizarre, because we've gone down a pointless rabbit hole of 'well, what would you have done differently? / shouldn't lethal force be justified in situation X or Y?', but the actual context is the trustworthiness and accountability of the Metropolitan Police in the year 2023 - in the wake of the Casey report, Daniel Morgan, Wayne Couzens, Deniz Jaffer, what happened to Shabnam Chaudhri, etc, etc. Rugz can joke that maybe the officer should have sat down for a cup of tea with Chris Kaba instead of shooting him, but they did that with Smiley Culture and somehow he still wound up with a knife in his chest. Just 29% of Londoners said they trusted the Met, back in April. 60% said they didn't expect to see effective reform any time soon. You can try and make the case that armed officers need to be given the right protections to do their job, or that hard decisions need to be made in the heat of the moment, including lawful killing - but you're not arguing an abstract principle here. You're playing defence for a specific institution which unequivocally does not have the public's trust to make the right decisions in the heat of the moment (especially when it comes to the deaths of black men), and whose members have a long and evidenced history of abusing their protections, covering up wrongdoing, and closing ranks out of tribal loyalty rather than, say, a desire to clear up contradictory CPS guidance. I don't have an expert opinion on what the man who shot Chris Kaba should have done. I do know you'd have to be daft to trust him, his employer, or his workmates, in how they handle it.
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Sep 25, 2023 19:06
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it's like watching mime, hearing GB people get all flappy about polis with guns - i understand it, but i just can't relate to it in any meaningful way growing up here, police and army carrying big guns were just everywhere in public and i'm clearly utterly desensitised to it
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Sep 25, 2023 19:08
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Yeah it started out as "he shouldn't even be prosecuted and doing so is a waste of court time" and progressed to "the cops need to be allowed to get on with their jobs" so I very much doubt there's anything to it beyond being a cheerleader for the boot.
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Sep 25, 2023 19:09
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crispix posted:it's like watching mime, hearing GB people get all flappy about polis with guns - i understand it, but i just can't relate to it in any meaningful way hosed up if true
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Sep 25, 2023 19:12
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grobbo posted:You're playing defence for a specific institution which unequivocally does not have the public's trust to make the right decisions in the heat of the moment (especially when it comes to the deaths of black men), and whose members have a long and evidenced history of abusing their protections, covering up wrongdoing, and closing ranks out of tribal loyalty rather than, say, a desire to clear up contradictory CPS guidance. I'm going to need you to substantiate that 'especially when it comes to the deaths of black men' with some evidenced history given the incredibly low rate of any direct police related death at all let alone a black man. This whole thing reads like a bingo card of 'Why American cops are bad'
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Sep 25, 2023 19:22
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If you're not aware that British police also kill black and minority ethnic people at a severely disproportionate rate, and that this has been the subject of considerable scholarship and reportage over the years, then honestly, that's a you problem. This is hardly niche knowledge when talking about police violence.
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Sep 25, 2023 19:28
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Rugz posted:I'm going to need you to substantiate that 'especially when it comes to the deaths of black men' with some evidenced history given the incredibly low rate of any direct police related death at all let alone a black man. This whole thing reads like a bingo card of 'Why American cops are bad' code:kingturnip fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Sep 25, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 19:32
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DesperateDan posted:cops killed someone they shouldn't have, once again, under even murkier circumstances than duggan or de menezes, to the point the scuffers couldn't cover it up or control the narrative and a cop might even face very limited consequences for their actions of straight up shooting someone to death Cops kill someone, family makes a fuss and starts protests. In response, the Met invites them into watch the bodycam footage, after which they step back from their campaign. Later, the CPS charge the officer with murder. So the video contains one of two things . A. Evidence that Chris Kaba was being aggressive enough towards the police (driving straight at an armed police officer etc) that even his family watched it and couldn't defend his actions, and agreed the officer acted in self-defence. B. Evidence that Chris Kaba was murdered by the police, and the video showing this came with assurances from senior officers of "We're gonna charge him for murder but legal stuff takes time, please stop your protests and making this a bigger issue than it has to be" If it's A, then the officer shouldn't have been charged by the CPS, because dragging a man to court with clear evidence of his defence available is wasting his time, the courts time, and the juries time, pushing other crimes further in the backlog. If it's B, then the officer obviously should be charged for murder. We won't know which it is until the trial starts, which isn't till next year, so it can be another simmering culture war issue until then. Nothingtoseehere fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Sep 25, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 19:44
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I think it's relevant to post some extracts from Baroness Casey's recent report on the Met, specifically about the Met's firearms unit:Baroness Casey Review posted:
You can read the whole thing here: https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAs...march-2023a.pdf Being sceptical about the Met shooting people has to be seen in this context.
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Sep 25, 2023 19:48
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Rugz posted:I'm going to need you to substantiate that 'especially when it comes to the deaths of black men' with some evidenced history given the incredibly low rate of any direct police related death at all let alone a black man. This whole thing reads like a bingo card of 'Why American cops are bad' Well, the lack of public trust can't really be disputed so I don't know why you'd need me to substantiate it: from the same BBC survey in April, three-quarters of Londoners agree that the Met discriminates. The cause of that distrust can be linked back to a long history of cases where black men died under strange circumstances or in situations involving UK police force or restraint - Colin Roach and Nicholas Bramble are famous ones that had a huge cultural impact back in the 80s. More recently you've got Rashan Charles and Sean Rigg as a couple of examples, and I already mentioned Smiley Culture. If you want stats, the Angiolini report in 2017 has some good ones; over the course of a decade, 16% of prisoners who died in custody after the use of police force were black (they made up 9% of all arrests). I understand the numbers are much smaller - thankfully - than the US, but you are wrong to suggest people are parroting an imported narrative about a problem that doesn't apply to this country.
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Sep 25, 2023 19:52
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crispix posted:it's like watching mime, hearing GB people get all flappy about polis with guns - i understand it, but i just can't relate to it in any meaningful way It never phased me seeing police here walk around with guns because it's always been that way for all of my life. Having armed police in London pointing guns at me while screaming to get down on the ground was a different experience.
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Sep 25, 2023 20:10
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OwlFancier posted:I would be rather more annoyed at all the people producing the general state of the world which leads people to go on murder sprees. I don't, honestly, expect to be protected by cops at this point. It isn't what they're for. My life is more likely to be made worse by a cop than saved by it. Actually lowering crime is unfortunately, far left radicalism or something, outside the Overton window. Remove all welfare and you'll get a massive crime wave overnight, it doesn't matter how much you appeal to "morality" *insert a very Karl Marx like laugh here* Or that abortion ban in some of the US states, that is going to increase crime, we saw this a few decades ago when allowing abortion lowered crime, though it is hard to know how much was abortion and how much was the realisation that Lead was making humanity more stupid and aggressive. Though we have microplastics now that are already in every new born baby to the point that scientists couldn't find a control to compare against. Individualism is a brain disease that is incapable of seeing the bigger picture. It renders people unable to see society as a supersystem where everything interacts with everything else. Brendan Rodgers fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Sep 25, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 20:12
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https://twitter.com/PhilipProudfoot/status/1706193386292543864 Pro click 
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Sep 25, 2023 20:14
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I dunno, I'm just pretty intensely aware that I can only live by the consent of everyone around me all of the time. Every second of the day I am reliant on other people to voluntarily conduct themselves in a manner that is conducive to my continued wellbeing, and if people don't want to do that then there's really just... not much you can do to stop them? Not before they hurt someone. So I don't spend much time thinking about "how do we react to people behaving antisocially" and instead think about "how do I stop people wanting to do that in the first place" because that and statistical probability are really the only things I can count on.
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Sep 25, 2023 20:15
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Nothingtoseehere posted:Cops kill someone, family makes a fuss and starts protests. In response, the Met invites them into watch the bodycam footage, after which they step back from their campaign. Later, the CPS charge the officer with murder. So the video contains one of two things . you kinda exclude other options, like option C where the cops lay a bunch of pressure on the family to shut up lest they want to become the next lawrence family or maybe someone would axe them a question in a pub car park one night good job the police and cps have such an excellent record with being truthful, honest officers of the peace, eh?
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Sep 25, 2023 20:21
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Brendan Rodgers posted:Or that abortion ban in some of the US states, that is going to increase crime But it was never about that in the first place really. Brendan Rodgers posted:Individualism is a brain disease that is incapable of seeing the bigger picture. It renders people unable to see society as a supersystem where everything interacts with everything else.
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Sep 25, 2023 20:51
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Guavanaut posted:Less chance of them shooting their own radios or grievously injuring a guy having lunch the other side of the river too. What's the story behind that?
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Sep 25, 2023 20:55
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I vaguely recall one of the knife attacks in london had them shooting a guy in a pub somehow, although I don't think it was fatal.
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Sep 25, 2023 21:00
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Brendan Rodgers posted:What's the story behind that? e: ^^ Yeah, he survived, but required a metal plate for a while, and apparently still gets serious tinnitus and flashes in vision. Stray bullets in urban environments are often underestimated as to how much damage they can cause.
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Sep 25, 2023 21:02
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I've changed my mind and I believe that every policeman must be armed with a sword and provided a horse and they have free reign to kill anyone they wish as long as they use the sword while riding the horse. As long as they're on duty and under the limit.
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Sep 25, 2023 21:02
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OwlFancier posted:I vaguely recall one of the knife attacks in london had them shooting a guy in a pub somehow, although I don't think it was fatal. The rest of my SWAT team jump out of the van and head towards London Bridge where the suspect is reported active, I swerve left and burst into The George and Dragon, unloading my MP5 into that oval office Aaron. Steal my pint now you poo poo
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Sep 25, 2023 21:04
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Disease-carrying mosquitoes to plague London by mid-century, experts warn https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/mosquitoes-yellow-fever-dengue-zika-london-climate-change/ Yellow fever mosquitoes could call the capital home for up to four months a year by 2060 quote:It will not be the first time insects have caused disease and death in London. Malaria was common along the River Thames until the middle of the Victorian era, especially in marshland areas to the south east of the capital. It was likely spread by the native Anopheles atroparvus, and was stamped out as drainage and housing conditions improved.
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Sep 25, 2023 21:04
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Guavanaut posted:Stray bullets in urban environments are often underestimated as to how much damage they can cause. All these guys would become deaf at least: 
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Sep 25, 2023 21:07
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Microplastics posted:Disease-carrying mosquitoes to plague London by mid-century, experts warn gently caress the people who live there, I won't be able to shout at waiters in English without taking prophylactic medicine that advises against drinking a dozen Peronis 
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Sep 25, 2023 21:12
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The ecosystem is collapsing and this is very concerning for the tourism industry.
Brendan Rodgers fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Sep 25, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 21:21
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British newspapers, May 1940 Express: England Still Triumphant Mail: France Provokes Germany Telegraph: Could Your Holiday In France Be Affected?
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Sep 25, 2023 21:28
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I see Russell tweeted to his 11.3m followers on twitter that he's streaming on Rumble about how he's been silenced, at the same time the Met announce that more potential victims have come forward https://twitter.com/coldwarsteve/status/1706407810957803857
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Sep 25, 2023 21:40
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A bunch of advertisers have vocally pulled out of advertising on Rumble due to his presence as well. Which is interesting because Rumble has been a hotbed of terrible shitheads for a while but I guess Brand was a little too hot to handle.
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Sep 25, 2023 21:43
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Microplastics posted:Disease-carrying mosquitoes to plague London by mid-century, experts warn It’s not every day you find out how you’re going to die, but as the most bitten person in my family, it seems it’s my fate to save my wife and children from zika and yellow fever
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Sep 25, 2023 21:44
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Perhaps rather a lot of attention and also despite his protests it's not "because he's political" but rather "because he's a horrific sex criminal" Although the latter is apparently political now.
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Sep 25, 2023 21:45
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