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How did we end up like this. Kyrsten Sinema was in the Green Party, and then turns out to be more or a moderate Republican once she gets to the senate. She believe this stuff? Just a grifter? Wants to be famously mavericky?
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Sep 25, 2023 19:10
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OctaMurk posted:How did we end up like this. Kyrsten Sinema was in the Green Party, and then turns out to be more or a moderate Republican once she gets to the senate. She believe this stuff? Just a grifter? Wants to be famously mavericky? She seems to be a genuine moron high on her own farts. Lobbyists told her she was a special flower maverick and deserved to get all these free wine cave vacations, and then everyone else yelled at her and called her an idiot, so they must be the ones who are wrong ans she'll show them all when she's president
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Sep 25, 2023 19:14
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She just seems to be a garden variety grifter - she promised the moon to anyone who would listen, and once she got power she immediately started lining her own pocket. The most notable quote from her is that she used to decry campaign finance as bribery, and now she and Manchin are the most well-paid members of the Senate. She’s a perfect example of why it’s important to have liberal candidates participate in the Democratic Party and develop a record before being given the keys to the city. Words are cheap.
Kaal fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Sep 25, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 19:23
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:when your pitch is a mathematical explainer making the argument that your campaign is technically feasible, you might as well just cede the race Seems like an internal consultant document.
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Sep 25, 2023 19:26
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OctaMurk posted:How did we end up like this. Kyrsten Sinema was in the Green Party, and then turns out to be more or a moderate Republican once she gets to the senate. She believe this stuff? Just a grifter? Wants to be famously mavericky? I don't know if you've noticed but the Green party politicians with national profiles: Nader, Sinema, Cornell West, Cynthia McKinney, Marianne Williamson, Jill Stein, are all lying grifters or insane conspiracy theorists or both.
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Sep 25, 2023 19:38
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Kaal posted:She’s a perfect example of why it’s important to have liberal candidates participate in the Democratic Party and develop a record before being given the keys to the city. Words are cheap. But then they end up like the Squad, broken until they sit at Pelosi's feet like good little lapdogs, voting for Republican priorities and still spouting cheap words.
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Sep 25, 2023 19:51
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zoux posted:I don't know if you've noticed but the Green party politicians with national profiles: Nader, Sinema, Cornell West, Cynthia McKinney, Marianne Williamson, Jill Stein, are all lying grifters or insane conspiracy theorists or both. Ralph Nader is an American Saint and no president of the 21st century has been fit to hold his jockstrap.
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Sep 25, 2023 19:56
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Al Gore, the guy who was laser focused on climate change and environmentalism at the critical moment when we could've forestalled warming to a more manageable level probably would have. Not sure why he didn't become president...
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Sep 25, 2023 20:01
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zoux posted:Al Gore, the guy who was laser focused on climate change and environmentalism at the critical moment when we could've forestalled warming to a more manageable level probably would have. Not sure why he didn't become president... Wikipedia has an amusing quote As to whether he would feel regret if he caused Gore's defeat, Nader replied "I would not—not at all. I'd rather have a provocateur than an anesthetizer in the White House." On another occasion, Nader answered this question with: "No, not at all ... There may be a cold shower for four years that would help the Democratic Party ... It doesn't matter who is in the White House." posted:Ah yes, no difference at all. But afterwards we got Obama who... well, totally worth it.
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Sep 25, 2023 20:10
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My first ever presidential vote was cast for Ralph Nader because I bought into that "The parties are the same maaaan" BS. Turns out there were some significant differences.
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Sep 25, 2023 20:13
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Nader didn’t do anything to cause Gore to lose, that’s just how voting and seeking the most votes works. If it’s not illegal to run third party, then he’s morally in the clear. Maybe try harder to win next time, bud! If you have as much advantage as either of the duopoly parties do, and still blame losses on third parties, that’s just loser talk, not actual analysis, and it’s pathetic. This is how the system works, you knew going in, and if you still whine about how the system works, you only have yourself to blame for not trying to either rig or change the system. Nevermind Nader’s lifetime project of trying to save Americans from insane capitalist slovenliness. That alone puts him miles ahead of any candidate I’ve seen in my lifetime insofar as the actual positive impact he’s had on all our lives. He fought constantly against lying corporate dickheads his entire life, to the point they had to pay him settlement money for being such dickheads. He’s a clear winner of the 20th century and no amount of kvetching over what could’ve been in 2000 had Al Gore been a competent candidate will change that.
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Sep 25, 2023 20:19
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I'm pretty sure that the Supreme Court declaring Bush the winner was the reason that Gore lost.
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Sep 25, 2023 20:23
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I once was present at a Corvair club meeting and they hated Ralph Nader, it was very funny. (For the record, the NTSB later found that the Corvair was just as safe as other contemporary cars)
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Sep 25, 2023 20:23
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I don't have much recollection of the 2000 election beyond who won because I was 13 and probably just didn't care that much but did the polling have it so close in the months leading up to it?
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Sep 25, 2023 20:24
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metachronos posted:I don't have much recollection of the 2000 election beyond who won because I was 13 and probably just didn't care that much but did the polling have it so close in the months leading up to it?  I can't recall what caused those big swings.
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Sep 25, 2023 20:26
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zoux posted:My first ever presidential vote was cast for Ralph Nader because I bought into that "The parties are the same maaaan" BS. Turns out there were some significant differences. I didn't bother voting since I was a young dumbass who thought Gore would probably do better than Bush but that either was going to be a boring one-termer, and that a vote for Nader would be the same as staying home anyway. Turns out I was real wrong about one of those three! My state went Gore so no harm done in retrospect, but it really seems that most people in my position either learned a powerful lesson that year or spent the next 20 years running from it. Like the people who will write reams and reams about the SCOTUS ruling and what lead to it while leaving out that the raw count being both super close and favoring Bush was the only reason that whole chain of events was possible. Nader did some great stuff as a private citizen in the 20th century though, no question there.
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Sep 25, 2023 20:32
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metachronos posted:I don't have much recollection of the 2000 election beyond who won because I was 13 and probably just didn't care that much but did the polling have it so close in the months leading up to it? Gore was actually behind in the polls for most of the race, but outperformed all of them on election day. It was a whole thing where everyone was diagnosing "Clinton fatigue" and whether it was hurting Gore. It was a really weird meta argument about whether Clinton (who had a 60% approval rating at the time) had made everyone too tired and wanting a change. But, Gore outperformed the polls and Clinton was popular, so it didn't really make any sense. It got so bad that Gore eventually asked Clinton to not campaign with him. So it was a strange argument based on the idea that Clinton was unpopular despite the polls saying he wasn't and then the problem of Gore underperforming in the polls turned out to be not true anyway. It also didn't help that there was a strong "the Republicans have become more compassionate and care about the poor and Democrats have course-corrected with Bill Clinton to be serious about fiscal issues, so politics are all going to the same from now on because everyone agrees" vibe. Nobody really believed that Bush would try to touch social security and the election was mostly about personality. 9/11 and Bush being serious about Medicare and Social Security changes pretty much changed the game, though.
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Sep 25, 2023 20:34
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I would love to rewrite Gore as a firebreathing leftist president in Alternate Earth, but I just don't buy it. You can leave a lot of left-right standardized platform behind as a fundraiser/philanthropist. Nader was basically the high water mark of the Green Party, which has since regressed back to cranks and grifters. "Both parties are the same!!!" Rage Against the Machine politics were very popular in the 90's. Nader saying lovely things in 2000 doesn't really wipe out writing Unsafe at Any Speed and ending the era of cars being coffins on wheels.
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Sep 25, 2023 20:36
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zoux posted:
I believe those are consolidations following the party conventions. The first bump are the Libertarian and Reform (Pat Buchanan v Donald Trump showdown) followed by the Green Party conventions, and the second bump is the Republican followed by the Democratic convention a couple weeks later.
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Sep 25, 2023 20:41
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Name Change posted:I would love to rewrite Gore as a firebreathing leftist president in Alternate Earth, but I just don't buy it. You can leave a lot of left-right standardized platform behind as a fundraiser/philanthropist. Gore didn't campaign as a fire-breathing leftist either. He did oppose the war in Iraq right out of the gate (although many people saw it as just sour grapes) and talk about big changes with environmental policy and global warming (which everyone thought was kind of a weird obsession at the time) and those likely would have been very different. People forget because of 9/11, but the big "issues" in the 2000 election were: - "Who would I like to get a beer with"/Al Gore said he invented the internet/George Bush is dumb candidate issues. - Al Gore wanting to give a tax cut to the middle class vs. Bush wanting to "give everyone a tax cut." - Both candidates wanting to draw down the global U.S. military as a "peace dividend." - Al Gore claiming Bush wanted to destroy social security with Bush denying it. - Al Gore having a kooky focus on global warming for no reason and Bush being a kooky religious person when his dad was not. - Both candidates having different major education reforms where the federal government would dictate education policy to the states. People not really believing that Bush was serious about his less moderate positions and trying to rebrand with "compassionate conservatism" and Bill Clinton branding the Democrats as "triangulating and not spendthrift tax raisers" sort of boosted the idea that everyone was the same because "everyone had moved to the middle" and there was no Soviet Union anymore, so there wasn't going to be any major differences in foreign policy anymore. The vibe that everything was cool from now on and there would just be minor differences in who was President wasn't even really just a criticism, it was a popular idea that it didn't matter (in a good way) because everything was on autopilot for success. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Sep 25, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 20:50
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Name Change posted:I would love to rewrite Gore as a firebreathing leftist president in Alternate Earth, but I just don't buy it. You can leave a lot of left-right standardized platform behind as a fundraiser/philanthropist. Yeah, I think there is also an argument to be made that his presidential run represented the denouement of his movement. At the height of Nader's raiders strength in terms of pressuring the federal government in the 1970s, Nader was very much opposed to running for political office at his movements height and his decision to run in 2000 was a reversal of that policy. At least that is the approximately the argument Paul Sabin makes in Public Citizens.
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Sep 25, 2023 21:00
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People should check out the 2000 debates because they are completely wild to look at through a 2023 lens. The issues were all really small bore or classic (tax and spending levels) issues. There were extensive debates about whether the V-Chip was extremely good or just very good, how they would handle PDA or their management style, and arguments about school uniforms. Basically everyone also agreed that we had cracked the code and the U.S. was destined for constant economic success and the world had pretty much figured itself out and foreign policy going forward was just going to be about everyone agreeing that North Korea shouldn't get nukes and maybe organizing a NATO mission to Africa every once in a while. Edit: Also, the major fear that we had too much of a surplus and needed to spend it all fast. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Sep 25, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 21:10
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That perspective is interesting because mine as a liberal high schooler was entirely focused on how we could leverage the Internet to trade votes with other left-wing folks in the Midwest so they’d vote for Gore, while we’d vote for Nader and get the Greens to the five percent they needed to unlock federal funding. Two of my teachers had a public argument over it. Gore was seen as a moderate candidate and the Dems needed to be pushed back to the left, but he was certainly preferable to Bush.
Kaal fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Sep 25, 2023 |
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Sep 25, 2023 21:17
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The only thing I strongly remember from the 2000 election is my college roommate begging me to vote for Bush, but I was from out of state and didn't feel arsed to sort that out so I didn't vote for anyone (had I done so, it would have been in either New York or Illinois, so it wouldn't have mattered anyway) Later, I learned about the 9/11 attacks from Slashdot
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Sep 25, 2023 21:20
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A second senator has hit Menendez https://twitter.com/ReporterCioffi/status/1706399168481083703
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Sep 25, 2023 21:24
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I was thirteen in 2000 and seventeen in 2004. My first election was in 2006 and the Republican incumbent for Wyoming's at-large House seat was within a tenth of a percent of losing to a Democrat. Anyway, I recall Saddam Hussein being the villain in the late nineties and in 2000.
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Sep 25, 2023 21:27
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 Hmmm receiving a firearm while under indictment is a federal offense. And lying on a federal firearms purchase form about it is also an offense. It is, in fact, what got Hunter Biden indicted. https://twitter.com/KristenhCNN/status/1706387648204480631 Ah it was simply a lie. Or the other thing was.
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Sep 25, 2023 21:27
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Kaal posted:That perspective is interesting because mine as a liberal high schooler was entirely focused on how we could leverage the Internet to trade votes with other left-wing folks in the Midwest so they’d vote for Gore, while we’d vote for Nader and get the Greens to the five percent they needed to unlock federal funding. Two of my teachers had a public argument over it. Gore was seen as a moderate candidate and the Dems needed to be pushed back to the left, but he was certainly preferable to Bush. A big issue with kids was also geeks being pro-Bush because of the Tipper Gore censorship stuff and how that might affect video games, which at the time were a favorite target of congressional grandstanding.
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Sep 25, 2023 21:27
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selec posted:Nevermind Nader’s lifetime project of trying to save Americans from insane capitalist slovenliness. That alone puts him miles ahead of any candidate I’ve seen in my lifetime insofar as the actual positive impact he’s had on all our lives. Well, better luck next time Ralph.
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Sep 25, 2023 21:28
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zoux posted:
May as well shoot a guy on Fifth Avenue and make it five indictments
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Sep 25, 2023 21:28
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Name Change posted:A big issue with kids was also geeks being pro-Bush because of the Tipper Gore censorship stuff and how that might affect video games, which at the time were a favorite target of congressional grandstanding. Didn't help that Joe Lieberman was absolutely the face of censorship grandstanding
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Sep 25, 2023 21:44
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The idea of Gore as some leftist is just revisionist. Yes he was ahead of his time on climate change, but politically speaking he was TOO FAR Ahead of his time, since no one else cared about that stuff at the time
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Sep 25, 2023 21:59
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The U.S. is recognizing extremist Kiwi separatist movements. I've been there (2019), didn't realize there was an independence movement. FWIW the reefs are bleached from climate change, the main sea creatures we saw were sea-slugs, and the people there preferred NZ and Aussie foods to the native stuff (which was excellent). It is a beautiful place.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:01
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The U.S. is recognizing extremist Kiwi separatist movements. For a minute I thought this graphic was a breakdown of trace contaminants in frozen fish. "Precious metal scraps, coins, and fruit juice. Sounds about right."
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Sep 25, 2023 22:12
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Dubar posted:The idea of Gore as some leftist is just revisionist. Yes he was ahead of his time on climate change, but politically speaking he was TOO FAR Ahead of his time, since no one else cared about that stuff at the time Gore would have -maybe- issued some tax credits for green technology, maybe a few grants for Ev development to get Elon Musk richer faster than what actually happened. Down here he's mostly infamous for ruining the SIVAM project for oversight of the Amazon basin by strong-arming Raytheon into the deal, so yeah, you'll excuse me for not believing any of his good intentions. Just another pol that suddenly discovers virtue the moment they no longer have any power to exert.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:23
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I'm kind of curious about this elite 1.42% subsection of fish fillets. What are those?
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Sep 25, 2023 22:25
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Dubar posted:The idea of Gore as some leftist is just revisionist. Yes he was ahead of his time on climate change, but politically speaking he was TOO FAR Ahead of his time, since no one else cared about that stuff at the time He wasn't particularly leftist, but all the same the "I don't like him but
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Sep 25, 2023 22:42
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Dubar posted:The idea of Gore as some leftist is just revisionist. Yes he was ahead of his time on climate change, but politically speaking he was TOO FAR Ahead of his time, since no one else cared about that stuff at the time To be fair, he did go on to ride the mighty moon worm
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Sep 25, 2023 22:49
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Al Gore was probably not aligned with a neoconservative group itching to reinvade Iraq given the slightest excuse. He would have also probably done a lot to raise awareness for climate change a decade ahead of schedule and probably saved hundreds of millions by proxy.
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Sep 25, 2023 22:58
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the_steve posted:He doesn't need to, it's already been pretty well established that unless someone is on video clearly and unambiguously saying "Here is the bribe that I am currently engaged in bribing you with in exchange for political favors. This bribe right here. Kuzco's bribe. The bribe for Kuzco.", then you can't really "know" it's a bribe. You didn't specify which political favours each bribe is for. Fails the test.
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