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There are a few places around me that have ground floor apartments, even some that look like brownstones. They look neat in my opinion. Almost every woman I know has said "100% will not ever live there", except one who said "maybe if there internal doors/shutters/bars that make the doors and windows impenetrable while still looking nice." The ground floor doesn't have to be all shops. You don't see that walking around places that are walkable, as noted up thread. It is fine if there is some parking.
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Sep 21, 2023 06:08
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Nah, ground floor parking is mostly bad except for spots for deliveries and similar. Just put that poo poo underground.
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Sep 21, 2023 09:12
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The ground floor apartments in my building have little backyards which seem to be more than most people really need, based on how they're actually used. But could be a good option to convert people too used to mowing their suburban backyards
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Sep 21, 2023 09:13
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Cicero posted:Nah, ground floor parking is mostly bad except for spots for deliveries and similar. Just put that poo poo underground. My city has recently stopped mandating underground parking because it's by far the most expensive way to facilitate parking. In addition, if we're serious about reducing car dependence, a parking garage can be later torn down easily, an underground parking facility not do much. PT6A posted:I will say that zoning rules mandating retail on the first floor of an apartment building are probably unnecessary, though. No one wants to live on the ground floor of an apartment building; just remove the restriction on mixed-use and it will naturally happen. Retail beyond the convenience store also typically prefers deeper and more open floor plates than residential construction. Especially in seismically active areas this increases construction costs and risks.  A fairly obvious solution is to stack a parking garage on top of a store, but this can get snagged on minimum parking requirements, if those stack as well.
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Sep 21, 2023 10:46
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PT6A posted:I will say that zoning rules mandating retail on the first floor of an apartment building are probably unnecessary, though. No one wants to live on the ground floor of an apartment building; just remove the restriction on mixed-use and it will naturally happen. I've talked to a few town planners who've said that basically it's not cost effective to do strip malls anymore and so you're going to have to build on top anyways to make a project cost effective.
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Sep 21, 2023 12:14
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PT6A posted:I mean we literally have whole-rear end strip malls with just retail and stuff, and no one complains that it's too much retail space. Let's just forbid that without building residential on top! I don't think that's a great comparison without diving into what retail is filling those strip malls. How much of that space is being occupied by outlet stores, big box retail, or other specialty retail that relies on being easily accessible to the entire town? Or by shops that rely on the low rent offered in dying strip malls? Like, I don't think a niche hobby store cares that there is walkable access for a few thousand people if it makes it significantly harder for the other quarter million residents of the town to stop in.
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Sep 21, 2023 13:40
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mobby_6kl posted:The ground floor apartments in my building have little backyards which seem to be more than most people really need, based on how they're actually used. But could be a good option to convert people too used to mowing their suburban backyards The biggest thing about ground floor apartments is the lack of privacy and the sense of insecurity. Having lived on what was effectively a ground floor (due to a hill our balcony was about five feet from a common pathway), it was always a bit weird to have people constantly walking past our windows and looking into our living space. We had to lock up our bikes when we stored them on the balcony, and when there was a fight outside one time, we felt particularly vulnerable. Adding tall fenced yards to the ground units can help with both issues, and create a real amenity for residents, but it has to be done correctly.
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Sep 21, 2023 13:45
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mobby_6kl posted:The ground floor apartments in my building have little backyards which seem to be more than most people really need, based on how they're actually used. But could be a good option to convert people too used to mowing their suburban backyards I desperately want more of these in my city. The lack of a private yard is what forces us back into single family housing, as much as I dislike that development pattern. We have a dog, so being able to let it outside without having to put on a leash and follow it around, especially in winter, is very important.
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Sep 21, 2023 13:50
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Jasper Tin Neck posted:My city has recently stopped mandating underground parking because it's by far the most expensive way to facilitate parking. In addition, if we're serious about reducing car dependence, a parking garage can be later torn down easily, an underground parking facility not do much. Isn’t the answer to do reinforced parking structures under stores, with access ramps for loading and unloading, so that you can put PV/Wind on the large roof print and shade cars etc underneath for cooling?     At that point you’ve used as much steel as any parking structure on top of a store would take, but increased efficiency and power draw?
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Sep 21, 2023 14:10
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Kaal posted:The biggest thing about ground floor apartments is the lack of privacy and the sense of insecurity. Having lived on what was effectively a ground floor (due to a hill our balcony was about five feet from a common pathway), it was always a bit weird to have people constantly walking past our windows and looking into our living space. We had to lock up our bikes when we stored them on the balcony, and when there was a fight outside one time, we felt particularly vulnerable. Adding tall fenced yards to the ground units can help with both issues, and create a real amenity for residents, but it has to be done correctly. I think this is just because of the familiarity with living in single family homes with big setbacks. I've lived in several apartments which have no access restrictions (either ground floor access or you can just park and walk up to a second floor one even if you don't live there. I currently live in a rowhouse so someone could obviously peer into my windows if they wanted. It's not an issue. And if you want some privacy, just close the blinds. Total Meatlove posted:Isn’t the answer to do reinforced parking structures under stores, with access ramps for loading and unloading, so that you can put PV/Wind on the large roof print and shade cars etc underneath for cooling? Requiring underground parking will just massively drive up construction costs. I mean sure, let people build underground parking lots if they need it, but honestly, requiring it just reinforces car dependency and drives up rents for retail or homes.
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Sep 21, 2023 15:30
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You can just split the difference and say parking is not required but if you do build it it has to be underground. A lot of cities don’t count above ground parking against FAR which is how you end up with those hideous 30 story buildings where 15 stories are just a parking garage
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Sep 21, 2023 15:43
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Nitrousoxide posted:I think this is just because of the familiarity with living in single family homes with big setbacks. I've lived in several apartments which have no access restrictions (either ground floor access or you can just park and walk up to a second floor one even if you don't live there. I currently live in a rowhouse so someone could obviously peer into my windows if they wanted. It's not an issue. And if you want some privacy, just close the blinds. Well this is precisely why ground floor residents typically do close the blinds and lock up anything they leave in their yard, and it's also why everyone - particularly women who unsurprisingly have greater concern about privacy and security than men typically do - wants to move to upper floors. The solution is to fix the problem with fencing, not insist that it doesn't exist. Kaal fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Sep 21, 2023 |
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Sep 21, 2023 15:57
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mobby_6kl posted:Maybe not every single building but some of them for sure. Lack of this mix-use is something that I dislike about the area I live in, I have to walk for at least 10 minutes before I get to anything that's not residential. That's porbably not bad by NA subub standards but it makes the area completely dead and not even worth going outside unless you're actually going somewhere else. I happen to know that place, I in fact went to one of those schools, and I really don't agree it's lifeless and isolated? There's businesses literally pixels off the side (on all sides) including restaurants and stuff at the metro station / town hall area that's within like three minutes of walking from any point in that image; there's a giant foot accessible park also within minutes; and from all sides there are access points to mass transit that will take you to the busiest part of the city within less than 15 minutes, including walking to the station. The main strength of these residential blocks is precisely that they are designed to be quiet and calm, yet not isolated -they are for children to walk to the school and play and for people to walk the dog. That means there are no areas intended for business traffic within the strictest possible limits of the residential blocks themselves, but each block, or a grouping of blocks is built to efficiently funnel its population to a joint business / services / transportation zone, usually represented by a combination bus / metro station, supermarket and a small shopping center with an assortment of smaller shops and bars / restaurants. For anything more specific and / or fancier you'll have to go to the city, but that's inevitable, there can't be literally every permission of every kind of service at each smallish focal point.
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Sep 21, 2023 16:14
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sim posted:I desperately want more of these in my city. The lack of a private yard is what forces us back into single family housing, as much as I dislike that development pattern. We have a dog, so being able to let it outside without having to put on a leash and follow it around, especially in winter, is very important. These are really common in English rowhouses, but every one in the US has a parking lot instead. I don't think anyone here understands what separates an apartment from a townhouse. These don't exist anywhere here to my knowledge: 
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Sep 21, 2023 16:21
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Fitzy Fitz posted:These are really common in English rowhouses, but every one in the US has a parking lot instead. I don't think anyone here understands what separates an apartment from a townhouse. These don't exist anywhere here to my knowledge: Rowhomes like that make up a majority or plurality of the housing stock in in Philly and Baltimore and (to a lesser extent) have a major presense in DC, NYC, and Boston. Outside of that, there are certainly "townhomes" which fit the bill, but they are not very common, and they usually have to have large setbacks and a parking garage that they are built over due to local regulations.
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Sep 21, 2023 16:40
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That is interesting. I assume it's mostly confined to that corner of the country? Maybe some around Chicago? And mostly pre-war?
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Sep 21, 2023 16:58
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Nitrousoxide posted:I think this is just because of the familiarity with living in single family homes with big setbacks. I've lived in several apartments which have no access restrictions (either ground floor access or you can just park and walk up to a second floor one even if you don't live there. I currently live in a rowhouse so someone could obviously peer into my windows if they wanted. If people feel unsafe or uncomfortable in their homes, then it is an issue. It's enough of an issue that first floor apartments are considered less desirable for exactly this reason. Honestly, it's pretty understandable too. I used to walk along the riverwalk in Milwaukee, and there would be first floor apartments with massive windows or patio doors. Either they were fully shuttered, which I would hate as a tenant since it cuts out natural light and makes a room feel way smaller, or they were open and only a couple feet away from a pretty busy walking path with people constantly looking into the homes.
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Sep 21, 2023 17:05
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Fitzy Fitz posted:That is interesting. I assume it's mostly confined to that corner of the country? Maybe some around Chicago? And mostly pre-war? Chicago has some too yeah. Philly and Baltimore are still building new ones, though not really in the pre-war style of course. Lots of remodels of the existing stock though. I can't really speak to DC/NYC/Boston. Sometimes they are split up multiple units too depending on the size of the original building. This is a pretty typical pre-war row home which was recently remodeled in Philly. https://www.redfin.com/PA/Philadelphia/2129-Reed-St-19146/home/39006071 And more similar to the English row homes you were talking about. https://www.redfin.com/PA/Philadelphia/226-W-Rittenhouse-St-19144/home/39395571 New construction will often look like this and be split into one or two units per floor depending on how they want to break up the floor space. https://www.redfin.com/PA/Philadelphia/819-N-Uber-St-19130/unit-5/home/146488357 Though you can get it all to yourself if you really want (and can afford that) https://www.redfin.com/PA/Philadelphia/194-W-Oxford-St-19122/home/184802529
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Sep 21, 2023 18:08
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The Urbanist Agenda (i.e., the Not Just Bikes podcast) recently did an episode on rowhouses featuring Justin Roczniak from Well There's Your Problem. It was pretty interesting and very relevant to this discussion. I was pretty skeptical at first, but by the end I was regretting not being able to move into a rowhouse in my area (Los Angeles County).
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Sep 21, 2023 18:28
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Kaal posted:Well this is precisely why ground floor residents typically do close the blinds and lock up anything they leave in their yard, and it's also why everyone - particularly women who unsurprisingly have greater concern about privacy and security than men typically do - wants to move to upper floors. The solution is to fix the problem with fencing, not insist that it doesn't exist. Yeah I've seen women told explicitly by family members to never rent a 1st floor apartment.
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Sep 21, 2023 18:30
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Relevant article with a link to a map of places where rowhouses exist in large amounts in North America: https://ggwash.org/view/68771/map-where-to-find-rowhouses-in-the-us-canada A lot of townhouses end up replacing the backyard with a garage. I'd be happy with a front yard, but they don't tend to combine those with townhomes in the US very often.
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Sep 21, 2023 18:39
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Those kind of ground apartments with garden are mostly popular with families with small kids, here. The only single woman living in a ground apartment that I knew was my grandmother. And she lived in one with all the windows facing the inner yard of the doughnut shaped apartment. When I lived in a ground apartment as a kid there was an underground parking garage across the street, and every-time a car left I got hit with the highlights shining into my window bright enough to read. Which is an underestimated problem. A more serious problem with classic 2 floor row-houses is that they tend to have quite bad wheelchair accessibility. There are also stacked rowhouses which are even worse for those purposes, despite being amazing to live in in all other situations. Here is one, the stairway leads to the upper outside walking space. Each of these entrances is a 2.5 floor rowhouse equivalent. With gardens in the back or a roof lounge for the upper entrances:  https://www.google.com/maps/@48.085...i8192?entry=ttu Also trying to look for pictures reminded me, that that is part of the largest Plattenbau aka "commie block" arrangements in Germany. It is not in the east. VictualSquid fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Sep 21, 2023 |
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Sep 21, 2023 18:54
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VictualSquid posted:Those kind of ground apartments with garden are mostly popular with families with small kids, here. The inner courtyard solution is a really good one, though it has struggled to penetrate the American market which often maximizes square footage. This is also the sort of issue where it becomes more of a problem as the structure gets larger. In a small rowhouse you might have a few neighbors walking by occasionally, but you probably know them and it's not a big deal. In a big apartment building you'll get dozens or even hundreds of strangers going by all the time, and the privacy and security issues are significant and unrelenting. Much like your experience with the apartment facing the parking garage, a relatively minor irritation takes on a much greater significance when it is repeated constantly.
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Sep 21, 2023 19:14
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Nitrousoxide posted:
Neither of those are underground though?
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Sep 21, 2023 21:51
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Nitrousoxide posted:Requiring underground parking will just massively drive up construction costs. I mean sure, let people build underground parking lots if they need it, but honestly, requiring it just reinforces car dependency and drives up rents for retail or homes. But in any case, I don't think you should require car parking at all, just require that if you do have parking, it be underground.
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Sep 21, 2023 21:58
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Cicero posted:Living in Munich, underground parking seemed standard even for small complexes. We lived in like a 10 unit and 8 unit complex and both had underground parking. These areas also felt very nice, totally different from typical apartment complexes I see in the states where you have island buildings in a sea of asphalt. Walking and biking felt way better there, which is great for society for a number of reasons. Now, parking is only one of the factors for why those areas felt nicer, of course, but it's a really major one. Yeah I'm constantly amazed at how many buildings in Germany have underground parking. It seems more or less standard for a new construction apartment building, and is pretty common even in older structures. It makes things much more pleasant even in areas that are dominated by residential construction, because all of that buried parking tends to translate into more green space, protected walking/cycling paths, and so on.
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Sep 21, 2023 22:55
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Yes, exactly. I get that people don't like apartments in currently SFH areas in the US and I think part of it is that they're ugly as gently caress. They do mess up the neighborhood vibe not because dreaded poors might live there but just because their design is poo poo. Meanwhile plenty of areas look quite nice in Munich with a wide variety of density levels, and almost non-existent surface parking outside of some street parking is a big part of that.
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Sep 22, 2023 01:23
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Jasper Tin Neck posted:
This is a solved issue anywhere with adequate seismic code.
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Sep 22, 2023 01:45
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Retailers don’t like massive shear walls or moment frames dividing up their space.
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Sep 22, 2023 02:01
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VictualSquid posted:Those kind of ground apartments with garden are mostly popular with families with small kids, here. My great grandmother and I were pushed into an apartment when she was 80. We looked for a ground floor apartment because she couldn't do stairs very well by then. A non-ground floor apartment would effectively be a prison. What we ended up with did face a courtyard, so the "blinding lights from cars" weren't an issue. And windows could be opened without a huge amount of strangers walking by. Yeah, I suppose a higher floor apartment with an elevator might have been feasible. Unless a fire broke out or the elevators went out, effectively imprisoning her. Ground floor living can be useful for some people.
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Sep 22, 2023 04:34
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Natty Ninefingers posted:This is a solved issue anywhere with adequate seismic code. No it's not. LA has spent over a billion on this and there still thousands of buildings that need a retrofit.
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Sep 22, 2023 04:47
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Jaxyon posted:No it's not. LA has spent over a billion on this and there still thousands of buildings that need a retrofit. why would new buildings be built to the old building code why would you need to retrofit new buildings built to the new building code ---------------- before the death of retail, it took 37sf of residential space to support 1sf of retail/service god knows what it is now that all shopping is online and people eat at restaurants more if any business or social sciences school has done a paper on it since the 90s, please post it here.
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Sep 22, 2023 15:18
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XKCD very on-topic today: https://xkcd.com/2832/
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Sep 23, 2023 16:31
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It pisses me off every time I see the streets just cluttered with parked loving cars, taking up space for free. Drives me absolutely nuts that I'm paying for that bit of pavement to be unproductively occupied by some dipshit car. I have never lived in a place where I didn't have to pay for a place to park my car on some sort of private property; I don't know why we give this poo poo away for free.
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Sep 24, 2023 03:11
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I don't live there anymore (thankfully) but up to last year at least, in Israeli cities there was a major issue with cars parking on sidewalks. If you have a disabled pass in Israel you are allowed to park pretty much where ever, and if there isn't handicap parking nearby so you are technically allowed to just park on the sidewalk. Some people figured out that if you just send a letter from a lawyer to whatever department they don't have the energy to contest it and you get a pass. The result is that 12% of drivers have (two) disabled passes, and that efforts by the Tel Aviv city council to expand sidewalks etc have just created more parking spaces. The fact that so many cars have the pass makes it so many people just park on the sidewalk without it as well since the city don't have the manpower to actually go and check all the cars.
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Sep 25, 2023 10:38
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That's a poo poo excuse because if you can make architecture hostile to homeless people, and god knows cities around the world do that, you can make sidewalks hostile to cars. Our friend the bollard might be a good idea, for one.
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Sep 27, 2023 17:16
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Plus it's so easy to install bollards in the name of Safety. Especially in Israel.
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Sep 27, 2023 17:36
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They are doing that, and you can even request a bollard in your street, but you can't bollardify every drat street in the city. Also, people will get on the sidewalk in places that can't be bollarded (e.g. zebra crossing, loading areas..) and then just drive a bit while on the sidewalk and park just before the bollard.
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Sep 28, 2023 00:14
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If I intentionally left $80k in cash in the middle of the sidewalk, I'd be laughed out of town if I tried to convince everyone that it was "stolen". Same should be true of personal vehicles being parked where they obviously shouldn't be.
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Sep 28, 2023 03:01
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kiminewt posted:but you can't bollardify every drat street in the city. Not with this kind of attitude you can't.
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Sep 28, 2023 03:20
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