|
Gort posted:Are massively-inflated-to-the-point-where-a-judge-can-call-it-obvious-and-throw-it-out property values a common problem in the USA? We also like to massively deflate property values when it comes to lowering property tax bills.
|
#
?
Sep 27, 2023 21:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 11:31 |
|
|
OgNar posted:Eric made multiple posts along the lines of 'Other peoples homes are worth more than that!'. It bothers me that they are so sure that we are all so stupid. “No, the 18 million dollar valuation isn’t what we worked with the city and county to determine as our tax liability for the last decade and filed with our signatures on it, it’s a number made up by a judge in New York.” Saying that mar-a-lago is worth a billion dollars to one group and then to a different group that it’s only worth 18 million is exactly what this case was about and yet they will still just gaslight and bluster and double down.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 02:56
|
|
|
as an aside, people tend to be surprised just how little big old buildings like that are actually worth, particularly once they're the better part of a century old. basically you've got an issue with them not being the building that someone necessarily wants for the specific piece of property/purpose and second, if they keep the building, they're now on the hook for the maintenance and upkeep and that can absolutely end up in 7 figures a year, particularly if they are registered as historic and have preservation requirements
Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Sep 28, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 03:05
|
|
|
Gort posted:Are massively-inflated-to-the-point-where-a-judge-can-call-it-obvious-and-throw-it-out property values a common problem in the USA? Yes (maybe not massively, but definitely inflated), because no one really looks into it unless it is specifically egregious. The whole point is to inflate value to use as collateral on a loan. As long as you make payments and don't try to overthrow the American Democracy, no one really cares. This is a very broad statement and I am not an authority on the subject frfr. ummel fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Sep 28, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 03:08
|
|
|
Don’t sleep on the Trump Org Fraud summary judgement ruling: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23991872/ny-ruling-on-trump-business-fraud.pdf He’s got footnotes quoting Marx brothers movies as he’s just hammering Trumps arguments.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 03:15
|
|
|
Failed Imagineer posted:He's right - all these homes should be burned to the ground The good news is— if you're not choosy in how they get destroyed— they'll all be gone in my lifetime.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 03:20
|
|
|
I guess I don't understand how Trump gets to claim a value at all for the purposes of getting a loan? If I go get a loan using my house as collateral the bank isn't going to just value it at whatever I say it is, they'll assign a value based on comps etc. I realize billionaires and the banks that serve them aren't playing by the same rules but is that all it is? I would assume when banks are giving out huge loans to corporations and individuals they do due diligence on the value of the underlying assets so was this special treatment only for Trump? I mean it is one thing if they are all overinflating values by a few percentage points but I find it hard to believe that anybody playing at that level can just claim whatever valuations they want without getting called on it?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 04:03
|
|
|
D-Pad posted:I guess I don't understand how Trump gets to claim a value at all for the purposes of getting a loan? If I go get a loan using my house as collateral the bank isn't going to just value it at whatever I say it is, they'll assign a value based on comps etc. I realize billionaires and the banks that serve them aren't playing by the same rules but is that all it is? I would assume when banks are giving out huge loans to corporations and individuals they do due diligence on the value of the underlying assets so was this special treatment only for Trump? I mean it is one thing if they are all overinflating values by a few percentage points but I find it hard to believe that anybody playing at that level can just claim whatever valuations they want without getting called on it? the trump defense isn't exactly wrong when they say the bankers aren't innocent victims in all of this. they knew the numbers were bullshit, but at that level it's really more permissive, mostly with the goal of retaining high value clients who will take out frequent cash flow loans against their net worth, like trump. they'll take the hit on due diligence because the default risk seen as worth the repeat business for another example look at elon musk almost brow beating banks into underwriting his purchase of twitter. the whole scheme was iffy on its face given musk's ...erratic personality. the banks ended up taking a significant haircut on it, but are willing to do so to have a shot at financing his regular billion dollar personal loans against his tesla shares this is why the judge had to emphasize in his order that the banks having knowledge that the numbers were baseless, or that they turned a profit on the loans is not pertinent to the law. the law in question as written makes it clear that act of lying is what matters, not the outcome
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 04:38
|
|
|
It also mentions that even if the banks made money, if they had the real picture of how much Trump's stuff was worth, the banks would have increased the interest rates on his loans (since he's more risky) and made even more money.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 07:15
|
|
|
Ardlen posted:It also mentions that even if the banks made money, if they had the real picture of how much Trump's stuff was worth, the banks would have increased the interest rates on his loans (since he's more risky) and made even more money. Yeah this is what is kind of confusing me. I have zero experience at all but I bet if I was given one of his properties to value I could come up with a number closer to reality than Trump apparently listed which leads me to believe the banks didn't even try at all. Like some of the stuff given as examples is so outrageously overpriced that somebody in that position could probably tell at a glance. It's just greed all the way down.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 07:29
|
|
|
D-Pad posted:Yeah this is what is kind of confusing me. I have zero experience at all but I bet if I was given one of his properties to value I could come up with a number closer to reality than Trump apparently listed which leads me to believe the banks didn't even try at all. Like some of the stuff given as examples is so outrageously overpriced that somebody in that position could probably tell at a glance. Are you telling me that duechebank engaged in fraud? I... I never thought this day would come.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 08:47
|
|
|
Caros posted:Are you telling me that duechebank engaged in fraud? Hand over my heart, I'm shocked I say, shocked.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 10:14
|
|
|
Gort posted:Are massively-inflated-to-the-point-where-a-judge-can-call-it-obvious-and-throw-it-out property values a common problem in the USA? No, most houses are within a very narrow band price-wise and banks are happy to make you pay for an appraisal to confirm the value. It only becomes a problem once you reach a certain threshold in value (multi-million dollar homes) or with unique properties, like ocean-front, commercial, etc. Even for those, you would expect them to still get an independent appraisal. The idea that someone can just tell the bank how much their property is worth, and the bank is willing to loan money based on that? That is a farce. It does not happen unless the bank is also willing to look the other way.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 13:49
|
|
|
Slowpoke! posted:No, most houses are within a very narrow band price-wise and banks are happy to make you pay for an appraisal to confirm the value. It only becomes a problem once you reach a certain threshold in value (multi-million dollar homes) or with unique properties, like ocean-front, commercial, etc. Even for those, you would expect them to still get an independent appraisal. I recall a Propublica article years ago that was basically about this and some whistleblower found out and made some big deal about it. I don't know if it ever went anywhere
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 14:21
|
|
|
Caros posted:Are you telling me that duechebank engaged in fraud? The following day, NBC News finally breaks the story we all knew was there, but nobody had put their name on it. Now they have a whistleblower who is publicly stating it. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...ushner-n1007501
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 15:39
|
|
|
mdemone posted:The following day, NBC News finally breaks the story we all knew was there, but nobody had put their name on it. Now they have a whistleblower who is publicly stating it. Article is from 2019.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2023 15:41
|
|
|
Slowpoke! posted:The idea that someone can just tell the bank how much their property is worth, and the bank is willing to loan money based on that? That is a farce. It does not happen unless the bank is also willing to look the other way. The Statements of Financial Condition have legal requirements and carry more weight than just you filling in the blank of what you think your asset is worth. That’s why there is this trial and it’s why Trump is in the process of having his businesses dissolved. It’s why Engoron can say the argument that Trumps disclaimer that his reports aren’t to be relied on have no merit. Trumps entire argument for this first count was, “Yes I made up these numbers and yes I used different numbers based on who I was talking to and how I felt that day but that’s okay because the banks didn’t care” and just kept repeating that even though the judge and the appeals court both said, “that’s not the law” enough times that his whole legal team has been sanctioned. So, it doesn’t even matter, at least in NY, if the bank looks the other way. Murgos fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Sep 29, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 14:54
|
|
|
Murgos posted:So, it doesn’t even matter, at least in NY, if the bank looks the other way. The bank looking the other way is just a conspiracy charge on top of the fraud charge.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 15:27
|
|
|
D-Pad posted:I guess I don't understand how Trump gets to claim a value at all for the purposes of getting a loan? If I go get a loan using my house as collateral the bank isn't going to just value it at whatever I say it is, they'll assign a value based on comps etc. I realize billionaires and the banks that serve them aren't playing by the same rules but is that all it is? I would assume when banks are giving out huge loans to corporations and individuals they do due diligence on the value of the underlying assets so was this special treatment only for Trump? I mean it is one thing if they are all overinflating values by a few percentage points but I find it hard to believe that anybody playing at that level can just claim whatever valuations they want without getting called on it? i think people assume that when hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake, there is a fuckton of analysis and legions of smart people verifying everything that is...not really the case
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 15:48
|
|
|
Normally, it is. However Donald Trump is such a profligate fraudster that the assumption banks have when dealing with him is that he is committing fraud, so no need to confirm that. Instead it is a question of whether they can make money off his continued business.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 16:00
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:as an aside, people tend to be surprised just how little big old buildings like that are actually worth, particularly once they're the better part of a century old. basically you've got an issue with them not being the building that someone necessarily wants for the specific piece of property/purpose and second, if they keep the building, they're now on the hook for the maintenance and upkeep and that can absolutely end up in 7 figures a year, particularly if they are registered as historic and have preservation requirements Look at every valuation and the land is usually worth more than the improvements.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 16:43
|
|
|
Lets not forget that most large banks were/are in the position of already being dumb enough to loan Trump millions of dollars, and thus are in the odd position where big boy business accounting indicates that giving him even more money is the best way to get some money back. If you can find a way to owe the money guys enough, they'll jump through nearly as many hoops to keep your business as if you were actually worth hundreds of millions.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 16:50
|
|
|
I thought the deal with Trump is that the large banks weren't willing to do business with him, and he was having to rely on the banks who had permissive stances on fraud and money laundering, such as Deutsche Bank.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 17:17
|
|
|
Morrow posted:Normally, it is. However Donald Trump is such a profligate fraudster that the assumption banks have when dealing with him is that he is committing fraud, so no need to confirm that. Instead it is a question of whether they can make money off his continued business.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 17:19
|
|
|
Gyges posted:Lets not forget that most large banks were/are in the position of already being dumb enough to loan Trump millions of dollars, and thus are in the odd position where big boy business accounting indicates that giving him even more money is the best way to get some money back. If you can find a way to owe the money guys enough, they'll jump through nearly as many hoops to keep your business as if you were actually worth hundreds of millions. "If you owe the bank a hundred dollars, you have a problem. If you owe the bank a hundred million dollars, the bank has a problem"
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 18:29
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/KatiePhang/status/1707842480358518922?t=-ojfdNbtvgiIDnU8PX5r7w&s=19 So apparently one of Trump's Rico buddies just pled guilty. That... Probably isn't good for him. https://twitter.com/KatiePhang/status/1707845032860926044?t=vDqjH2mEYsjG3ypOEZ4OXA&s=19 Five years probation, $5000 fine. Requirement to 'testify truthfully in this case and all other proceedings' That feels like a flip to me. Caros fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Sep 29, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 20:54
|
|
|
Caros posted:So apparently one of Trump's Rico buddies just pled guilty. That... Probably isn't good for him. Caros posted:Five years probation, $5000 fine. Requirement to 'testify truthfully in this case and all other proceedings'
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 21:18
|
|
|
O no not the bail bondsman.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 21:22
|
|
|
Paracaidas posted:Hall is one of the folks getting rung up on the Coffee County data/machine fuckery. It's extremely unlikely he has anything directly on Trump Until we find the message "do this for me and I'll sign a hat for you"
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 21:23
|
|
|
Paracaidas posted:Buddy is strong. Scott Hall strikes me as much more of an outsider. He does have a direct connection to Jeffery Clarke in the form of an hour long phone call. The line there is pretty much Hall-Clarke-Trump.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 21:29
|
|
|
Speaking of Clark, Judge Jones just denied his request for removal to federal court: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23999838/ruling-on-jeffrey-clark-removal-request.pdf It's what we expected. 1) It wasn't his job and 2) although 'maybe' the president could have given him that job there was no evidence he did and 3) also the letter was probably entirely outside the scope of DOJs authority but that's not relevant because see 1 and 2.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 22:03
|
|
|
So for anyone who is a huge nerd, Judge McAfee has a YouTube channel which includes the Plea deal. What an age we live in.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 22:29
|
|
|
If I could get out of this mess with just misdemeanors I would jump at that. Also that YouTube is just my kind of nerdery.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 22:32
|
|
|
Caros posted:https://twitter.com/KatiePhang/status/1707842480358518922?t=-ojfdNbtvgiIDnU8PX5r7w&s=19 This dude to the prosecutors getting off easy for flipping on Donny. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 22:47
|
|
|
Judges should start twitch accounts and livestream proceedings.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 22:50
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:Judges should start twitch accounts and livestream proceedings. I for one look forward to the appointment of America's first vtuber judge.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 23:26
|
|
|
Even if it’s just one guy that will increase the squeeze on some of the peripheral actors, does it start to ratchet up pressure and create FOMO for others to flip before they suddenly have zero leverage?
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 23:26
|
|
|
Paracaidas posted:Scott Hall strikes me as much more of an outsider. Heard he was a new world order type
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 23:58
|
|
|
smackfu posted:If I could get out of this mess with just misdemeanors I would jump at that. 5 years probation, 5k fine, some miscellany, must cooperate with the feds this is what you get for flipping first (and, presumably, being pretty low on the totem pole, but if Sidney Powell said "I will single-handedly give you Donald Trump on a silver platter" I bet she'd get a similar deal)
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 11:31 |
|
|
I think we’re all gonna find he was just the coffee bail bondsman.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:37
|
|