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dadrips posted:What we need is a viewpoint that rejects these outmoded Victorian notions, while also elevating the status of women who have been trodden on by patriarchal society. This is something feminism can, and does, achieve Yes and just saying ‘actually feminism does this and is good for you’ is poo poo politics and ignores how humans actually interact with each other and ideas, and I’m aggrieved that I’m once again stuck with Rugz on this. Can someone reply to my post on the matter which is in my opinion very cool and good instead please
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Sep 29, 2023 17:24
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OwlFancier posted:Were you not a child? Of course children desire to be transgressive, and yes they are very frequently cruel because understanding that other people's experience is real and just as important as your own is something that takes time to learn, and it is something that many adults do not even learn how to do very well. And do you have any inclination to try and help them grow out of it beyond 'Lets keep doing what we are doing and hope they come around'? Do you just hope that other people step in to help young people understand kindness and consideration or do you just assume that it is an inherent learned skill and anyone that doesn't learn it just gets left behind? Jakabite posted:Yes and just saying ‘actually feminism does this and is good for you’ is poo poo politics and ignores how humans actually interact with each other and ideas, and I’m aggrieved that I’m once again stuck with Rugz on this. Can someone reply to my post on the matter which is in my opinion very cool and good instead please It is very cool and good, sorry that it's me replying.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:28
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What if we did feminism but on the blockchain
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Sep 29, 2023 17:31
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Rugz posted:And do you have any inclination to try and help them grow out of it beyond 'Lets keep doing what we are doing and hope they come around'? Do you just hope that other people step in to help young people understand kindness and consideration or do you just assume that it is an inherent learned skill and anyone that doesn't learn it just gets left behind? Sorry, some of your posts have been pretty poo poo, but hey no one’s perfect eh!
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Sep 29, 2023 17:31
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Rugz posted:And do you have any inclination to try and help them grow out of it beyond 'Lets keep doing what we are doing and hope they come around'? Do you just hope that other people step in to help young people understand kindness and consideration or do you just assume that it is an inherent learned skill and anyone that doesn't learn it just gets left behind? If someone ever asked me for advice I would tell them what I believe, which is rooted in feminist and marxist analysis. I would tell them that what tate offers can't work, that it's been done historically and it creates its own opposition so it can never last. That it demeans and degrades both women and men, and that they're just trying to scam out out of money to enrich themselves and I think you deserve better than to be sold this lie. Because that is the truth and the truth is powerful. And other people deserve the power that truth brings. Not for me to lie to them as well.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:31
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I love your earnestness Owly, honestly I do, but you must realise that ‘just tell people your political beliefs’ isn’t how you win hearts and minds right? It takes all sorts and we need our earnest people in the world but I’d wager this very very rarely works for you in bringing anybody round to feminism right?
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Sep 29, 2023 17:33
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OwlFancier posted:If someone ever asked me for advice I would tell them what I believe, which is rooted in feminist and marxist analysis. I would tell them that what tate offers can't work, that it's been done historically and it creates its own opposition so it can never last. That it demeans and degrades both women and men, and that they're just trying to scam out out of money to enrich themselves and I think you deserve better than to be sold this lie. A staggering example of how feminist marketing is completely incapable of competing in the Tik-Tok age with the likes of Tate.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:34
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Jakabite posted:I love your earnestness Owly, honestly I do, but you must realise that ‘just tell people your political beliefs’ isn’t how you win hearts and minds right? It takes all sorts and we need our earnest people in the world but I’d wager this very very rarely works for you in bringing anybody round to feminism right? What exactly do you propose? If I think somebody is being taken advantage of I'm not going to pretend to support the person doing it, I'm going to tell them that I think they'r being taken advantage of and deserve better than that. Anything else would be showing them profound disrespect. Especially with children, children already get bullshitted constantly from all sides. When I was a child I wanted nothing more than for people to be straight with me about things, not make up lies they felt more comfortable telling me. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 17:38
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Rugz posted:A staggering example of how feminist marketing is completely incapable of competing in the Tik-Tok age with the likes of Tate. I’d be wary of putting it down to ‘feminist marketing’. I think that’s reductive. Ultimately the thing to realise is that it’s on men who are feminists to package it in a way that brings in men and boys who aren’t (or would be turned off by the label). For example, calling Tate and the like lame little bed wetters and demonstrating how ‘real men’ should act. Not the perfect phrasing but it is famously the enemy of good
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Sep 29, 2023 17:40
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OwlFancier posted:What exactly do you propose? If I think somebody is being taken advantage of I'm not going to pretend to support the person doing it, I'm going to tell them that I think they'r being taken advantage of and deserve better than that. Anything else would be showing them profound disrespect. Your opening gambit carries the implication that they have been duped. You are trying to deprogram someone by convincing them they have been outsmarted. Jakabite posted:I’d be wary of putting it down to ‘feminist marketing’. I think that’s reductive. Ultimately the thing to realise is that it’s on men who are feminists to package it in a way that brings in men and boys who aren’t (or would be turned off by the label). I think the job of the men in this case would be easier if they had some way to shed the feminist label altogether, even if the actual aims they are working towards are broadly within the feminist remit. It is reductive in the sense that is places all of the issues on the label, but the failure of the label is what is causing people to look elsewhere. Rugz fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 17:40
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Jakabite posted:I’d be wary of putting it down to ‘feminist marketing’. I think that’s reductive. Ultimately the thing to realise is that it’s on men who are feminists to package it in a way that brings in men and boys who aren’t (or would be turned off by the label). If I were to attempt to construct "real masculinity" then I would put honesty and straightforwardness central to it.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:42
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OwlFancier posted:If I were to attempt to construct "real masculinity" then I would put honesty and straightforwardness central to it. So men like Tate 'telling it like it is'? Because that's what you're going to get if you're trying to construct an ideal like that.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:43
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Rugz posted:So men like Tate 'telling it like it is'? Because that's what you're going to get if you're trying to construct an ideal like that. I have absolutely no objection to andrew tate saying what he thinks plainly and bluntly and I think it is both natural and good to be attracted to straightforwardness in a person, I object to the fact that what he thinks is bullshit. Would you listen to somebody who told you that we should not be plain about what we think? That we should hide our thoughts and feelings from each other and not engage one another with the honesty that befits our equals? I would not trust a person who told me that. We live in a world that is full of obvious lies told by politicians and advertisers and journalists, craven and contemptible people who sit in positions afforded them by nepotism and unearned wealth, insulated from the consequences of their bullshit by institutional power and who dictate to us through cameras and screens. To be honest with someone is the least you can offer them if you want to show you think they're worth a drat. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 17:46
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104 posts, what we ganshing about now? 
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Sep 29, 2023 17:46
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Rugz posted:Your opening gambit carries the implication that they have been duped. You are trying to deprogram someone by convincing them they have been outsmarted. Which despite being true, is the wrong way to help someone. People are going to push back at the person telling them they are stupid rather than the person they are actually being manipulated by. I don't agree with a lot of what Rugz is saying here and I don't necessarily believe feminism needs to be "rebranded" (b/c imo no amount of rebranding would stop anti-feminists from attacking). There is however a serious problem with young boys (and heck, a lot of older men and women) being drawn in by people with ideologies like Tate's. I don't think having a dedicated Minister for Men's health would in any way help with this unless they were very social media savvy and had a lot of financial backing. As someone else earlier mentioned there are a lot of grassroots projects and CICs being set up dedicated to helping Men and I do believe this may be the best direction to go in.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:49
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Just Another Lurker posted:104 posts, what we ganshing about now? the state can no longer marry someone of the same sex
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Sep 29, 2023 17:51
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Jakabite posted:‘Men should just listen to feminism’ is true but also reeks of ‘we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!’ But going back to the start of all this, I'm not sure how you'd have a minister for stateless organizing. DreddyMatt posted:Someone post a funny picture or tweet please 
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Sep 29, 2023 17:52
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Anecdotal but whenever a student of mine brings up Tate/MRA poo poo I just take the piss (out of Tate). It's deeply childish thought (obviously) and wilts under examination (but I'm teaching degree, so by the time it gets to me...) Mind you it is getting worrying how much it's popping up - far more than pre-pandemic Blordan Fleeperson shite (postmodern marxism?!?!?) Had someone ask, in an inquiring manner, 'is it true jews run the banking system?'... where did they get that idea from? Boyfriend's Youtube, who is also a big ol Tate fan. haakman fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 17:52
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haakman posted:Anecdotal but whenever a student of mine brings up Tate/MRA poo poo I just take the piss (out of Tate). It's deeply childish thought (obviously) and wilts under examination (but I'm teaching degree, so by the time it gets to me...) Yeah, while doing my Teaching Assistant course there was a huge section dedicated to Tate and incels in the Safeguarding and Prevent section. A lot of the women on the course who had young sons had no idea about incel culture or who Andrew Tate was (well, they knew their kids watched him, just not what he was preaching). It worried me a bit but it's not unsurprising that a lot of parents don't have any idea what content their children are consuming and as a result can't even try to tackle that at home. Schools are doing what they can but it's certainly an uphill battle.
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Sep 29, 2023 17:57
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haakman posted:'is it true jews run the banking system?' There's always going to be someone telling people that lizards rule the world or Jews run the banks or 300 people are behind everything that happens or the Pope sends all Catholics a little book telling them how they must vote or how you can become a god by activating your glans or any amount of risible poo poo to explain why they feel alienated and oppressed that doesn't involve material conditions. Probably the best cure for that is meeting people from those communities (other than the lizard people, who hide inside the hollow earth) and learning how things actually work, which takes time.
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Sep 29, 2023 18:02
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Guavanaut posted:That one's from at least 1903 in that specific form though, so while I'm sure Tate et al enthusiastically spread poo poo like that, its popularity is based on factors far outside them. It's that gosh darned algorithm! Venn diagram, circle etc etc haakman fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 18:06
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It got plenty popular in the other '20s without that.
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Sep 29, 2023 18:13
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Solefald posted:Yeah, while doing my Teaching Assistant course there was a huge section dedicated to Tate and incels in the Safeguarding and Prevent section. A lot of the women on the course who had young sons had no idea about incel culture or who Andrew Tate was (well, they knew their kids watched him, just not what he was preaching). It worried me a bit but it's not unsurprising that a lot of parents don't have any idea what content their children are consuming and as a result can't even try to tackle that at home. Schools are doing what they can but it's certainly an uphill battle. Yeah, there is genuinely a lot of work going on in schools - mostly in secondary, but in primary as well to a lesser extent - focused on trying to help young people understand healthy relationships, particularly in the context of scum like Tate and incels. It's just that it only ever gets commented on more widely in the context of the psychotic platonic fringe screeching about the dangers of relationship education of any sort, or when a man assaults a partner to within an inch of her life and everyone shrugs and says "porn, eh?" But nothing's likely to progress much in the near future, because between Sunak and Starmer, our Prime Minister for the next 5.5 years is going to be terminally-liberal pint of dregs who'll do nothing to upset the status quo kingturnip fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 18:22
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So, because this discussion hasn't been messy enough already, lets broaden it out a bit Why are "young men" drawn to "incel culture"? To simplify a complex question to a single answer, it's that men still believe that having romantic/sexual relationships with women is important to their self-worth and identity, and are unable to achieve them as they used to. That last point is backed up by statistics and data, so there's a material source of this disenfranchisement (even as it does not apply to those preaching it). OwlFancier says the answer to this is feminism - in the broad ideological sense, that teaching women and men that their self-worth is not and should not be dependant on having a partner. This is both true and pointless, as Rugz points out. Saying to an angry young man the answer is feminism is like saying to the oppressed worker their answer is communism and being surprised they don't immediately start planning for revolution. Feminism has being trying to convince women they don't need no man for decades, and while they have been partially successful, it has taken alot of effort to get there. Effort and grassroots support "men" as a group don't have in promoting "male feminism" if we want to call spreading feminist messages to men that. Would a minister for Men help than? Probably not, but there's certainly reasons for one to exist. Nothingtoseehere fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 18:23
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Just Another Lurker posted:104 posts, what we ganshing about now?
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Sep 29, 2023 18:28
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Just Another Lurker posted:104 posts, what we ganshing about now? We’re on how to build class consciousness.
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Sep 29, 2023 18:28
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EXAMERN YUOR OWN PROSTERT 
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Sep 29, 2023 18:31
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crispix posted:EXAMERN YUOR OWN PROSTERT Calm down Jose.
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Sep 29, 2023 18:32
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I would still strongly suggest that you cannot sustainably maintain a state where you explain what are fundamentally feminist concepts to people as a means to help them understand the world, while also running in terror from the word and any association with it. I would not lead with just saying "feminism" to people because if someone is asking for an answer to a question I'm going to actually explain the answer, but if they identify or ask if what I'm telling them is feminism then I'm going to say yes, because either you try to hide it and fail, or you hide it and succeed in which case you are now breaking their trust and they will find out eventually. You should lead with concepts purely because that is just conversations work but I don't agree with the idea that you can or should conceal the origin of where you're getting those ideas from.
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Sep 29, 2023 18:34
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i think there should be a minister for crisps
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Sep 29, 2023 18:37
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Nuclear Spoon posted:i think there should be a minister for crisps Gary Lineker fantasy cabinet
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Sep 29, 2023 18:45
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OwlFancier posted:I would still strongly suggest that you cannot sustainably maintain a state where you explain what are fundamentally feminist concepts to people as a means to help them understand the world, while also running in terror from the word and any association with it. But why? Why does an idea have to be under the sole purview of feminism? There are plenty of ideologies that have overlap so why does it have to be feminism? They ask 'is this feminism?' and the true answer is 'No'.
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Sep 29, 2023 18:49
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No it isn't.
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Sep 29, 2023 18:59
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Because feminists would use that word to describe it, feminists would think and write about those ideas as examples of feminism. You could try and construct some alternative worldview which incorporates those ideas but that doesn't make those ideas less feminist. If the same idea exists in multiple worldviews then it can be described as belonging to any of them. If you're just cringing away from being associated with the word feminism I don't see how that is going to appeal to any man who is concerned about being traditionally masculine because even I think that behaviour is contemptably weak. Your opponents will brand you with every label under the sun to discredit you, if the best you can do is tremulously try to claim that you're actually different from that thing you just happen to share some ideas, then you're going to go the way of every other effort that has tried to do that. You have the option of accepting the allegiance of feminists and learning from and working with them and contributing your own thoughts in kind, or you can try to position yourself desperately as being really clever and original and not aligned with anybody, while the people actually in charge of branding, who are your opponents, simply dismiss you as being just the same as the feminists, who you will not associate with. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Sep 29, 2023 |
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Sep 29, 2023 19:01
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If there was a minister for men it would be Lee anderson or that other twonk so what's the point.
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Sep 29, 2023 19:08
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Rugz posted:But why? Why does an idea have to be under the sole purview of feminism? There are plenty of ideologies that have overlap so why does it have to be feminism? They ask 'is this feminism?' and the true answer is 'No'. What ideologies would that be
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Sep 29, 2023 19:15
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NotJustANumber99 posted:If there was a minister for men it would be Lee anderson or that other twonk so what's the point. It'd be that idiot with the tarantula
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Sep 29, 2023 19:18
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Minister for spider-men.
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Sep 29, 2023 19:18
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he could have saved uncle ben if it weren't for 15 minute cities
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Sep 29, 2023 19:22
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He can swing across Manhattan in 8 minutes though, so is a 15 minute city the same for him as for us?
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Sep 29, 2023 19:28
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