|
celadon posted:Hope to see this energy defending the technical legality of mass-doxxing protesters when it comes to other authoritarian states. As we move into an increasingly chaotic century, we're gonna see more protests and we'll need to keep up the pressure on any involved protesters in order to maintain societal homeostasis. Additionally, increased economic instability will result in people moving more of , meaning these doxxing events will need to occur with a certain regularity to ensure the public will have up-to-date access to this critical information at all times. When you sign a petition in support of a referendum it's a public act. The entire loving point of a petition is to demonstrate that public support. Therefore is no expectation of privacy and if the government comes after you that's what the first amendment is for. Also weren't there something like 111 thousand signatures on it? The Fash are not coming after 111 thousand citizens, particularly given that a substantial subset of that hundred thousand are not going to be members of out groups that the authorities can get away with terrorizing with impunity. In fact a big part of the point of such a petition is to signal the opposition that they are loving with you at their peril. Because ultimately even dictators have to worry about popular opinion unless they want to end up like Gaddafi.
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 23:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 06:45 |
|
|
Morrow posted:It's not your job to go through lists of petitions. Advocacy groups should do that, and when they follow up to see if there is mass fraud they can call you to confirm. Exactly . The necessary bodies can request those records and we (the people) don't need to just make them all immediately public.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 23:36
|
|
|
Google Jeb Bush posted:So if I'm understanding correctly the two problems here are: No, the disclosures are themselves legally required.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 23:37
|
|
|
The not insane way to do it would be to 1. Have a list of signatures alongside other identifying information such as address or phone number or star sign 2. Lookup on a public database (voter registration? DMV?) to see whether a given name has an entry with matching address, phone, star sign 3. If there is discrepancies above a certain fraction, then you can discard petition, with possibility allowing organizing group to challenge. I cant really see a scenario where the potential petition signers would need to be involved, maybe if there was ambiguous levels of fraud you could call random subsamples of them? Or like if number matched and address didnt we assume person moved and call a certain fraction of those entries to double check? But yeah the whole process shouldn't rely on people having to go out of their way to check all petitions in their area, especially since that requires everyone to have a unique name to really function properly. Ultimately my point being its easier to fake a petition that can pass what ive described above when you have a huge set of names-phones-addresses to work with. So the release of this data is, beyond being morally abhorrent, undermining the very principles of petitioning. Now if its a much dumber system of checking, which I concede is possible in this dumb country, my point may be moot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 23:42
|
|
|
Fork of Unknown Origins posted:The interest is probably the ability to confirm that that many people actually did sign a petition. Whether or not that interest outweighs the risk associated with that being published (which I think is being massively overblown in this thread) is debatable. TheDeadlyShoe posted:it's because people would just fake signatures, and the clerk-who-is-in-on-it would look the other way. with these sorts of laws the public can check and see i.e. if someone's used their name in a petition. The government has an interest in verifying signatures, John Q Public has no reason to have that info.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 23:46
|
|
|
Excellent longform article in the Washington Post today regarding the book ban petitions loving up so many states: the Post previously established that they're coming from a very small number of weirdoes, and this is a profile of one of them. She challenges one school book a week. She says she’ll never stop. This particular weirdo is actually Bhuddist; she's just personally fixated on the idea that there should be nothing more explicit than, by her description, the “fade-to-black” moment in movies. She files challenges basically full time; it appears likely that a handful of these people are just keyed in with the private schooling and conservative fringe movement, and punching way, way above their weight as a result. The analysis, from earlier this year: Objection to sexual, LGBTQ content propels spike in book challenges An analysis of book challenges from across the nation shows the majority were filed by just 11 people In other news, the FTC and 17 states filed suit against Amazon earlier this week alleging broad anticompetitive and monopolistic practices, mostly involving prime and other interface preferencing as a cudgel to force use of amazon fulfillment platforms and price controls. Here Are the 2 Tactics Amazon Used to Undermine Competition, the F.T.C. Says Other coverage: U.S. Accuses Amazon of Illegally Protecting Monopoly in Online Retail The FTC press release, linking the lawsuit itself: FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Sep 29, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2023 23:47
|
|
|
Professor Beetus posted:The government has an interest in verifying signatures, John Q Public has no reason to have that info. Hardest of disagrees. I don’t trust the government implicitly to be the only check on that. As someone upthread said, signing a petition is a public acknowledgement of support.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:00
|
|
|
Fork of Unknown Origins posted:Hardest of disagrees. I don’t trust the government implicitly to be the only check on that. As someone upthread said, signing a petition is a public acknowledgement of support. A public acknowledgement of support with my full name does not need to include where I live and how to contact me so that any loving weirdo can stalk and harass me. Some of you seem to have real early 20th century attitudes about things that have not aged well into the 21st. e: like if you don't trust the government or whatever, then there can be additional verification through a trusted 3rd party, still no reason for every fuckface who cares to dig that info up. I'm sure I'm doxxable as hell online but I'd at least like someone to have to make an effort at getting my personal phone number and address Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Sep 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:05
|
|
|
Professor Beetus posted:A public acknowledgement of support with my full name does not need to include where I live and how to contact me so that any loving weirdo can stalk and harass me. Some of you seem to have real early 20th century attitudes about things that have not aged well into the 21st. There are over 100k names on that list. Are there any examples from previous petitions of people getting stalked? You can (much more easily than stalking someone) look up someone’s name and find their address and phone number. It would be harder to do this for, say, a thousand people to verify they actually signed something. Like, phone books are still around. If someone wants to find and harass you they can. This doesn’t really make that any easier or more likely in any way I can think of.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:16
|
|
|
Upon thinking on it further, I really like the idea of having signed a politically sensitive petition, and getting a call from the government asking you to confirm whether it was indeed your signature and that you fully support the aims of the petition. Absolutely no way that could go wrong or be perceived as anything other than simple bookkeeping.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:17
|
|
|
Fork of Unknown Origins posted:There are over 100k names on that list. Are there any examples from previous petitions of people getting stalked? You can (much more easily than stalking someone) look up someone’s name and find their address and phone number. It would be harder to do this for, say, a thousand people to verify they actually signed something. There's a pretty big difference between whipping out the YellowPages to ask someone if their fridge is running and looking up the contact info for someone who said "Maybe the cops don't need a billion dollar playground." in order to mail them death threats or suddenly find them getting pulled over by cops much more frequently.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:19
|
|
|
Fork of Unknown Origins posted:There are over 100k names on that list. Are there any examples from previous petitions of people getting stalked? You can (much more easily than stalking someone) look up someone’s name and find their address and phone number. It would be harder to do this for, say, a thousand people to verify they actually signed something. You don't have to scroll through names when every single one is a potential target. By publishing the names right next to the address and phone number, it makes it easier. It's a lot loving more effort to sit down with the list of names and try to find them all in the yellow pages. And you know, people can choose to have unlisted numbers. I dunno, it makes me think twice about signing anything more politically sensitive than a petition asking to help fund the local orphanage or whatever Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Sep 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:26
|
|
|
Professor Beetus posted:You don't have to scroll through names when every single one is a potential target. By publishing the names right next to the address and phone number, it makes it easier. It's a lot loving more effort to sit down with the list of names and try to find them all in the yellow pages. And you know, people can choose to have unlisted numbers. When I was skimming the law it actually does treat unlisted numbers differently in some cases.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:29
|
|
|
celadon posted:Upon thinking on it further, I really like the idea of having signed a politically sensitive petition, and getting a call from the government asking you to confirm whether it was indeed your signature and that you fully support the aims of the petition. Absolutely no way that could go wrong or be perceived as anything other than simple bookkeeping. Is there a particular case of a state government using petition information to intimidate people you’re thinking of here? This is not exactly a new policy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:30
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:When I was skimming the law it actually does treat unlisted numbers differently in some cases. That's good to know. I do think in a sane world all that stuff would be opt in rather than opt out, and the whole idea of just leaving your contact info out there for anybody is archaic and doesn't make sense in modern society.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:32
|
|
|
Jesus Christ the government is about to shut down and this is what you choose to argue about. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:34
|
|
|
I found my name in a right-wing database of leftists called KeyWiki, for having attended a DSA meeting at the public library. It doesn’t have to be the government that makes use of this information.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:34
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:Jesus Christ the government is about to shut down and this is what you choose to argue about. Well I would like the government NOT to shutdown but I don't know if anyone is going to challenge me on that one.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:36
|
|
|
Wheeljack posted:Is there a particular case of a state government using petition information to intimidate people you’re thinking of here? This is not exactly a new policy. The policy in question being that the government calls people and asks them whether they've signed a petition? Thats not a real thing, how would it even work? You're telling me the government is going to spend dozens and dozens of hours calling thousands of people until they get enough responses? Instead of comparing two databases to eachother?
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:44
|
|
|
I will be very surprised if a shutdown is avoided. The GOP House Caucus is so splintered on what to do before Sunday morning that I can't imagine they get their act together in 24 hours. There are some rumors that the less crazy Republicans are trying to get Dems to sign on to a bill that would be a temporary CR to fund things for another week or so, but I don't think McCarthy can allow that to get through him without losing the Speakership.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:44
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:I will be very surprised if a shutdown is avoided. The GOP House Caucus is so splintered on what to do before Sunday morning that I can't imagine they get their act together in 24 hours. There are some rumors that the less crazy Republicans are trying to get Dems to sign on to a bill that would be a temporary CR to fund things for another week or so, but I don't think McCarthy can allow that to get through him without losing the Speakership. That’s pretty much the field right now. I’m not sure how this gets resolved besides the GOP crazies getting bored with a shut down and passing something relatively sane or McCarthy teaming up with some Dems and costing him his position. Even if the crazies pull the moderate Republicans to their side that bill won’t make it through the Senate and White House.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:49
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:Jesus Christ the government is about to shut down and this is what you choose to argue about. don't blame me, blame Harold Fjord or God
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:53
|
|
|
Professor Beetus posted:That's good to know. I do think in a sane world all that stuff would be opt in rather than opt out, and the whole idea of just leaving your contact info out there for anybody is archaic and doesn't make sense in modern society. I think it is reasonable to expect that if you are petitioning the government that fact will be public. I don't trust the government to tell me that it got enough valid signatures or not enough, I want others to be able to verify it. I want political contributions to be visible for the same reason. https://www.fec.gov/introduction-campaign-finance/how-to-research-public-records/individual-contributions/
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 00:57
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:I think it is reasonable to expect that if you are petitioning the government that fact will be public. I don't trust the government to tell me that it got enough valid signatures or not enough, I want others to be able to verify it. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because I don't think signing a petition is anything like campaign donations and I also think my name is public enough without providing my contact info.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 01:03
|
|
|
Zeron posted:Who cares if it was legal or not legal or whatever. It being the law doesn't make it right, it just means that Georgia has really lovely laws that are being used to target activists and people who don't want cop mega-mart. Still makes the Clerk a lovely person to go "Well the law doesn't say I -have- to redact all this information, so there's no problem with me doxxing all these people." It's actually very important to understand whether something was done according to law or not, if you have any interest in changing laws for the better, or if you'd like to identify the actual culprits of what you perceive to be a bad act. I guess who cares if you just want to get angry in general. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 01:04
|
|
|
Skex posted:
Why on earth do you think this makes it OK? They don't have to go after all 100,000 of them. Like, you understand that targeted harassment is targeted at individuals, right? All it takes is one motivated and unhinged psycho going through the list and finding someone who lives near them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 01:05
|
|
|
Professor Beetus posted:Well I would like the government NOT to shutdown but I don't know if anyone is going to challenge me on that one. Let me try to divert the topic: as a faceless government bureaucrat who's been through a few other shutdowns, we received very little guidance until a flurry of emails at like 3pm today with instructions. Back under Obama in particular we were receiving guidance a month out. Some of this is undoubtedly that this surprised everyone since the Republicans can't even get a partisan proposal out of the gate, whereas in the past they were posturing well in advance about wanting to cut medicaid/explode yellowstone.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 01:07
|
|
|
Morrow posted:Let me try to divert the topic: as a faceless government bureaucrat who's been through a few other shutdowns, we received very little guidance until a flurry of emails at like 3pm today with instructions. Back under Obama in particular we were receiving guidance a month out. I am a newly minted government employee myself and I have no idea what's going on. Luckily it's state so I know I can go to work next week, but I don't know what I'll be doing if the federal government stops funding benefits programs.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 01:13
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:
My concern is that now that the list is digitized it's very easy for psychos to just page search for names of their targets. No time investment required m
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 01:25
|
|
|
My entire office is considered "excepted", so we have to work, regardless. This'll be the third shutdown I've had to work through. So, whatever at this point. Things only really start getting harry at the end of October, because that's the first paycheck we miss. The check we're getting the 13th is for work conducted these last two weeks. Also, I just realized October 13th is a Friday. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 01:50
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:Why on earth do you think this makes it OK? They don't have to go after all 100,000 of them. Like, you understand that targeted harassment is targeted at individuals, right? Ya don't beat fascists by hiding and there are so many other ways for crazies to identify lib and leftist targets that would be far more obvious and effective targets that digging through a petition list.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 02:42
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:Yeah. They could just as easily walk around a neighborhood and start stalking people with certain lawn signs. This is some serious pearl clutching.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 02:45
|
|
|
Stalkers and dangerous exes are also serious concerns, this isn't just about brownshirts. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Sep 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 02:50
|
|
|
Skex posted:Ya don't beat fascists by hiding and there are so many other ways for crazies to identify lib and leftist targets that would be far more obvious and effective targets that digging through a petition list. Ok, so what? That doesn't mean you need to make it easy for them. And there's a difference between hiding and not wanting to be identified.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 03:03
|
|
|
Fork of Unknown Origins posted:They could just as easily walk around a neighborhood and start stalking people with certain lawn signs. It is in fact not as easy as taking .2 seconds to pull up a list of names with modern broadband Internet, and all it takes is a small amount of effort to put most people off. It's a lower barrier to entry for anyone with malicious intent. It's not pearl clutching to point out that it's not 1990 anymore and that technology has changed the calculus for a lot of this stuff.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 03:05
|
|
|
Alex Jones fans found and stalked numerous Sandy Hooks victim's parents, forcing many of them to move several times. Anything that could make that harassment easier should not be taken lightly, it does make a difference and can enable actual violence.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 03:27
|
|
|
Google Jeb Bush posted:don't blame me, blame Harold Fjord or God I blame Harold Fjord for coming in angry and catastrophically wrong on the facts, again, and I blame you for facilitating the motivated septupling down on the anger that has followed. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 04:08
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:I blame Harold Fjord for coming in angry and catastrophically wrong on the facts, again, and I blame you for facilitating the motivated septupling down on the anger that has followed. Which part was "catastrophic". The only thing that was technically incorrect is that the law that was passed wasn't what the council president said it was. All the more reason for the people involved to be angry about it. I don't think anyone has shown anything that says the city council had to publish what they did, only make it available as a public record. And the source of the misconception is the lies of the city council president one week ago about what would be published. A completely reasonable basis of misconception. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Sep 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 04:30
|
|
|
AlternateNu posted:My entire office is considered "excepted", so we have to work, regardless. This'll be the third shutdown I've had to work through. So, whatever at this point. Maybe for your agency. I'll be getting paid for the last pay period, 11 to 22 September, on Saturday (I don't know why my direct comes through on Saturday, it just does). I heard something about us getting paid for 25 to 29 September on our normal payday of 14 October, but the back pay for hours not worked beginning 2 October is an open question. The Government Employee Fair Treatment Act of 2019 guarantees us to get back pay, but we're stuck waiting for the victor of the war between McCarthy and HFC in the mean time. Times like this make me wish I was still a postal clerk instead of a federal call center phone man.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 05:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 06:45 |
|
|
Skex posted:
When the recall petition against Scott Walker, fash former governor of WI failed, he used the public info on the recall petition to identify his enemies and screw with their employment if they had anything to do with the state govt. He especially liked to go after teachers with it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 05:37
|
|
