|
Aramoro posted:Not offensive. Just deeply ignorant of how people actually work in reality. It’s the biggest problem we have. I stopped organising because I realised that a lot of the people I organised loving hated the type of people I grew up around and loved despite their crappy political opinions (formed like you say from irrationality and just not really paying attention, rather than malice), and I couldn’t abide it. If you hate most of the people who live in your society then I genuinely don’t see why you’d take any interest in politics. Most people are alright.
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 09:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 14:43 |
|
|
Just for a day, turn on the telly and watch some broadcast news. Ignore everything you know about any party then tell me what the parties offer and which ones are good or bad by only what you've seen on telly that day. This is how most people get their information.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 09:52
|
|
|
I guarantee that the casual Tory voters who know nothing about them have also had it ground into them that they have to vote, and they have no right to complain about the state of things if they don't. Engagement-free politics is encouraged in this country, people are taught to be that way from a young age.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 09:55
|
|
|
Mega Comrade posted:Like his idea to just teach feminism. There is a clip which I will post if I can find it of a journalist asking some women if the believe in equality for women, they all say yes. They are then asked if they are feminists, they all say no.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 09:56
|
|
|
Classic Albert
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 09:59
|
|
|
TACD posted:I may have posted this before but I was once at a party where three women were having a conversation; one of them said “I’m not a feminist because I don’t hate men” and the others nodded in agreement. I blurted out “that’s not what feminism is!”, and when they turned to listen to what I was going to say I suddenly realised I was about to mansplain feminism to three women. I awkwardly changed the subject instead. Mansplaining is when you tell women what they already know, though. Sounds like they knew gently caress all about the subject
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:00
|
|
|
Aramoro posted:People are strange. My dad was a shop steward for the union working on the rigs and refineries, my mum worked for the NHS her entire career on principle. But at some stage in the late 80s my Dad voted Tory. Now my sister and myself turned that ship around and despite his complaints about immigrants he stopped doing that. But being a Tory worms its way into people's brain. Unfortunately for every decent union rep there are 5 more interested in how it benefits them than the members they represent, even in militant unions. You'd be surprised how many anti company union all the way ASLEF members consistently vote Tory.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:02
|
|
|
Rishi is going to make it illegal to not love the car.quote:The government said its plan would: Banning councils from making their area more convenient to live in 
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:03
|
|
|
Lol how is anyone gonna enforce "Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk" When a council establishes a new essential amenity, what, they have to make sure it's more than a 15 minute walk away from where anyone lives? 
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:09
|
|
|
The cities are just housing estates. All shops are located at retail parks at least 30 miles away and have 20,000 parking spaces. There is one bus per day.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:14
|
|
|
Miftan posted:drat forkboy, I didn't know you were secretly jerembly corbnylyn?? I didn't realise my posting in a thread with probably 50 users was so influential in sinking socialism. If only I'd used my powers for good... Needless to say, I will continue to not even begin to understand how the gently caress people can vote against things they say they support. I certainly haven't seen anyone else explain it other than shrugging their shoulders and mewl about how we're not rational actors, as if I came to my politics through ration rather than my moral compass and emotions. I struggle with the sheer incuriosity. If you don't find it infuriating, man, good for you I guess. I'm aware of my failings at least.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:15
|
|
|
Bacon Terrorist posted:Unfortunately for every decent union rep there are 5 more interested in how it benefits them than the members they represent, even in militant unions. You'd be surprised how many anti company union all the way ASLEF members consistently vote Tory. I don't have data on this but I feel it was when he stopped working that it turned his opinion. Talking about 10 years from working on the sites, giving up work to raise kids, wife is effectively self employed, right to buy let us own our own home. He's become isolated from things, directly benifits from Tory policies, the message of hard work should be rewarded because he worked hard etc. He went from volunteering to help Ugandan refugees in our town to complaining about small boats. Just a strange journey overall.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:16
|
|
|
Mega Comrade posted:Just for a day, turn on the telly and watch some broadcast news. Ignore everything you know about any party then tell me what the parties offer and which ones are good or bad by only what you've seen on telly that day. It's worse than that, they don't watch or read the news at all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:18
|
|
|
Microplastics posted:Lol how is anyone gonna enforce "Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk" reverse 15 minute cities which means you have to drive to a ring road regardless
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:26
|
|
|
sinky posted:The cities are just housing estates. All shops are located at retail parks at least 30 miles away and have 20,000 parking spaces. There is one bus per day. This is the America model. Make it so rich people can live far away from poorer people and there are no public transport links between the two.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:26
|
|
|
sinky posted:Rishi is going to make it illegal to not love the car. The one by-election where they scraped a win by being whiny little bitches about the ULEZ has completely gone to his head, this is just not the vote winner he thinks it is
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:27
|
|
|
serious gaylord posted:That's a fairly classic thing though isn't it? People don't understand the actual beliefs of eg feminism, but broadly support is principles so they are feminists without actually understanding what feminists are. Yeah, true, but I think there's also something specific in how feminism has been caricatured by its opponents over the decades and centuries (shrill, dogmatic, a humourless and joyless imposition, the ideological equivalent of being forced to eat your vegetables) and how that directly clashes with the ways that boys and men have been traditionally raised to socialise with each other: emotionally avoidant, with social inclusion founded on your ability to demonstrate that you can take a joke and don't take anything too seriously; bonding over shared activities and interests rather than direct expressions of feeling. It's a culture where caring too much about a given topic, in a way that stands out from the rest of the group, is a vulnerability which opens you up to pisstaking and effectively isolates you. Maybe that's reductive or no longer relevant in 2023, but it still feels pretty frequently, if not universally, my experience when it comes to my generation and my dad's generation. And so I think you have to see a real measure of success these days in men who've internalised basic social lessons from feminism about respectful and supportive behaviour, fairness, or - as a good example from this year, genuine non-jeering enthusiasm towards women's football... ...but would still quickly shrug those beliefs off as expressions of universal common sense, and part of what it means to be a good bloke / a good lad, rather than declaring them as deeply-held ideological principles. For the same reason, I agree that a crucial part of the overall solution to someone like Tate will come from something as simple as men down the pub and boys in the playground offhandedly mocking him and writing him off as a nasty little tosser who looks like a thumb when the subject comes up. Pisstaking is always going to be more impactful in a social environment that's (to its own detriment) been built to single out earnestness and mock it as weakness. That's certainly not a good or healthy thing, but it's also not a failure of feminism's branding - it's just men finding their way to camouflaged expressions of feminism that can somehow fit into the awkward, avoidant, maladjusted culture of male friendships and friendship groups. Anyway, Jakabite had some great posts and their Manchester clubs sound like really interesting recs that I wish hadn't got buried in the thread. EDIT: poo poo, i waited too long to post and the conversation moved on. Sorry.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:30
|
|
|
Microplastics posted:Mansplaining is when you tell women what they already know, though. Sounds like they knew gently caress all about the subject TBH I’m aware I also actually know very little and I’d end up burbling vaguely about equal pay or something. Also I was drunk.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:32
|
|
|
Microplastics posted:Lol how is anyone gonna enforce "Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk" They don't need to. The people up in arms about 15 minute cities think it's some kind of region system where people will be locked in their regions unable to leave. When this obviously never actually happens, the Tories can say "look see we stopped the thing from happening"
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:37
|
|
|
I live in the countryside and folk are all riled up about the 20mph zones through the villages we got. The blame for speeding is always put on the outsiders as well, it's people passing through and tourists! No Dave it's you, my neighbour, doing 50 past the primary school everyday we can see you.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:39
|
|
|
I started making fun of ULEZ crazies to my parents the other weekend, forgetting until halfway through that they believe in 15 min cities lockdown control nonsense also. Luckily they got distracted by seeing a squirrel
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:47
|
|
|
Mega Comrade posted:They don't need to. The people up in arms about 15 minute cities think it's some kind of region system where people will be locked in their regions unable to leave. Its especially stupid because a great deal of population centres in the UK already are 15 minute cities.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:49
|
|
|
Skulker posted:My mum is unionising her workplace because she's sick of "management that does gently caress all but bully the people who actually work", volunteers in a homeless hostel and every week gives £100 of food to a food bank and yet will argue to her last breath that she's a true blue Tory. I've mentioned before my (now late) father in law who was the opposite - basically a clone of Lee Anderson (right down to being chairman of the local Conservative Club) but would swear up and down that he was 'true old-school Labour' and The Party Left Me I Didn't Leave The Party...when he only ever voted Labour under Blair, and then only in 97 and 01. He was of the view that he was a true salt-of-the-Earth working class bloke (which in many ways he was) and that he was therefore 'Labour' and the Labour Party should therefore embody his views, regardless of the ideology or policy basis. I've also just finished reading an autobiography by a pilot who flew for an Australian airline from the 1950s to the 1980s. In that time he took part in several actions, campaigns and strikes with the pilot's union and ended up doing stints as company and regional rep. He eloquently talks about using the economic and skill power of pilots (and the withdrawal of that) to improve and protect working conditions, safety standards and renumeration, and writes proudly about a time when he took to the tarmac to harangue a crew from a different airline from the same parent company that were being brought in as strike breakers. But whenever any other group went on strike - air traffic controllers, engineers, ground crew etc. he had absolutely no time for them. When ATC went on strike he writes proudly about the logistical efforts his airline (pilots included) went to to set up a temporary hub at a regional airport without ATC. He was especially dismissive of a strike by the cabin crew - a strike where the demand was that they get the same relative seniority and long-service benefits as the pilots. I know - the Australian jet pilot born in the 1930s might have a massive ego and wasn't a feminist. Shock!
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:50
|
|
|
forkboy84 posted:I didn't realise my posting in a thread with probably 50 users was so influential in sinking socialism. If only I'd used my powers for good... You can’t really explain it in a general sense because people are complex creature who vary hugely from each other. I don’t think your disdain for almost everyone else around you is a very good quality, particularly for a socialist, to be honest. Many people have far more immediate things to worry about and don’t spend next to any time reading the news actively; only picking things up through cultural osmosis. Take the immigration thing for instance. It’s easy to say that anyone concerned is a horrible racist, and some are, but the vast majority wish no ill will towards the people on the small boats - they see a country falling apart and unable to look after the people already here and because they just pick things up through osmosis genuinely believe that a big part of that is because so many more people are coming. If you didn’t know better, that would seem reasonable, wouldn’t it? Especially if they’ve travelled through other ‘safe’ countries. Now you could say ‘so they want us to blow them out of the water or put them in concentration camps’ but that just isn’t true - most people don’t even think that far ahead of what should actually be done other than ‘stop them coming’. These things aren’t issues they spend any time thinking about until they’re challenged on them, and often that challenge comes from someone like yourself who’s all too quick to call them risible scumbags, which as I think we established earlier doesn’t actually work for bringing people round and educating them. There’s a space for aggressively combating people - out and out organised fascists, or the people who spread this stuff for personal gain, for example. But that is a failing tactic on 95% of people who think small boats are a big reason the country’s in the shitter.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:55
|
|
|
Mega Comrade posted:Just for a day, turn on the telly and watch some broadcast news. Ignore everything you know about any party then tell me what the parties offer and which ones are good or bad by only what you've seen on telly that day. Most people over 35-40 or so, aye Under that, mainstream/establishment/whatever news has very little sway- increasingly for the younger brackets in that- mainly just second or third hand stuff from parents or other accidental exposures every time I suffer a bit myself it comes over as more and more transparently propagandised bullshit that makes the "only britain soldiers on" broadcasts in children of men/v for vendetta look tame I think it's a factor in the kids/yoof being alright generally tbh, that and the lack of leaded petrol fumes during key developmental years
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 10:59
|
|
|
He’s taking this really badly lol https://twitter.com/lozzafox/status/1708051355204493472?s=46&t=m_nNbkNoHG4lLitcpyHReg
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:02
|
|
|
smellmycheese posted:He’s taking this really badly lol An extremely amusing downfall to experience live. What a loving loser.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:04
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:You can’t really explain it in a general sense because people are complex creature who vary hugely from each other. I don’t think your disdain for almost everyone else around you is a very good quality, particularly for a socialist, to be honest. Many people have far more immediate things to worry about and don’t spend next to any time reading the news actively; only picking things up through cultural osmosis. Does it need to be said that I don't talk to people I'm trying to win over with quite so much sarcasm as I do here? This is an outlet valve, in real life I'm not permanently raging, hard as that may be to believe. But this thread is, broadly speaking, shared view points. I'd probably not post here if when I first read it there hadn't been Spangly A's posts dealing with the DWP and pro-rail stuff. Because real life has enough of dealing with liberals. Who'd want to willingly engage with them in their free time? I'm sick but not that sick.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:17
|
|
|
DesperateDan posted:Most people over 35-40 or so, aye Sadly it's the over 35s who vote the most. I'm also not convinced the kids are actually alright or will stay alright. A lot of them seem to only care about causes in a performative way and historically people skew conservative as they age.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:21
|
|
|
What debate and discussion do you expect to find when you go looking for people that already share your viewpoints?
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:29
|
|
|
Mega Comrade posted:Sadly it's the over 35s who vote the most. That's one of those truisms that's taken as fact but I'm not sure it's actually true outwith boomers. The actual studies into the matter tend towards most people form their views early on & then they stick to them. To quote one abstract (I wish I had JSTOR access, sigh) "Although the evidence suggests that attitudes probably become somewhat less susceptible to change as people grow older, there is scant evidence for any other contribution of aging to conservatism." Rugz posted:What debate and discussion do you expect to find when you go looking for people that already share your viewpoints? Riveting discussions of Monster Munch flavours.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:32
|
|
|
The talk of branding problems for feminism, socialism, whatever is wild to me. Ok if people approach subjects they don't know anything about from personal experience or going straight to the literature that's one thing but deciding you hate a thing because the person you choose to take your definitions from is one of the most dishonest and disgusting critics of it like Tate is a whole other thing. It's not even lack of intellectual curiosity at that point it's wilfully diving into the arms of a garbage human being because what they are peddling serves you (or they have convinced you that it does at least).
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:34
|
|
|
I’ve always thought part of it might be that the older you get the more poo poo you’ve generally accrued, and so it may be more likely that you’ll start voting like a oval office when the media feeds you a steady diet of vague and nebulous threats about people trying to take your poo poo away and give it to other people
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:34
|
|
|
Isomermaid posted:The talk of branding problems for feminism, socialism, whatever is wild to me. Ok if people approach subjects they don't know anything about from personal experience or going straight to the literature that's one thing but deciding you hate a thing because the person you choose to take your definitions from is one of the most dishonest and disgusting critics of it like Tate is a whole other thing. In a poll only a few years ago only 34% of women think of themselves as feminists, they didn't decide that after watching Tate videos. Tate simply tapped into existing prenotions of what feminism is that kids have picked up from the media and their parents.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:42
|
|
|
Mega Comrade posted:Sadly it's the over 35s who vote the most. As forkboy says, the evidence doesn't back it up. What evidence we do have is that even 30-somethings who start developing enough money and capital they should be voting Tory aren't, because they've developed reflexively anti-Tory views in their early life. Instead they'll moan about taxes but keep voting Labour or Lib Dem instead.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:48
|
|
|
If people arnt voting Tory but causing the other parties to swing to the right to satisfy them. Is there much of a difference?
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:51
|
|
|
Skulker posted:My mum is unionising her workplace because she's sick of "management that does gently caress all but bully the people who actually work", volunteers in a homeless hostel and every week gives £100 of food to a food bank and yet will argue to her last breath that she's a true blue Tory. 100 years ago that was true blue Tory.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:54
|
|
|
Isomermaid posted:The talk of branding problems for feminism, socialism, whatever is wild to me. Ok if people approach subjects they don't know anything about from personal experience or going straight to the literature that's one thing but deciding you hate a thing because the person you choose to take your definitions from is one of the most dishonest and disgusting critics of it like Tate is a whole other thing. But this isn't what happens. Tate doesn't tell people not to be feminists so people decide not to be feminists. People decide not to be feminists and then find Tate while looking for solutions that aren't feminism.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:56
|
|
|
Mega Comrade posted:In a poll only a few years ago only 34% of women think of themselves as feminists, they didn't decide that after watching Tate videos. Right but those "prenotions" didn't just develop out of thin air did they. They were established by critics of feminism. Tate doesn't want an audience of regular women who want equality but don't consider themselves feminists because they don't hate men. He wants angry disaffected boys and women he can lure into sex work. If people are learning about feminism by taking the definition of it from the critics of it, whoever they are, if it's Tate, if it's some benign seeming elder Tory "traditionalist" woman with a telegraph column, I still think it stands it's willful ignorance
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 11:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 14:43 |
|
|
You can moan that 66% of women are willfully ignorant until you are blue in the face. It's not going to fix things. You can moan that young men are ignorant of what feminism actually is, it's not going to stop them falling for these self help scams which are just a facade for facism.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2023 12:09
|
|