Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

quote:

Nixon was invited to Ghanaian independence celebrations and there, he turned to a man to ask “how does it feel to be free at last?” And the man replied “I wouldn’t know sir, I only came for the celebration. I am from Alabama.”

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

These weren't the "double, double toil and trouble" kind of witches Shakespeare wrote about in "Macbeth." They were Wiccans, led by Gerald Gardner, the man whose writings would revive the pagan belief system to the modern era. In 1940s Britain, his beliefs were far from the mainstream, but like the rest of the country, he knew he might soon find himself under Nazi domination.

Gardner may have been 55 years old and leading a coven of witches, but he was still a patriotic Briton with a stiff upper lip. So the man who would be remembered as "The Father of Witchcraft" and his followers were going to do their part to defend the island, casting a spell that would target Adolf Hitler personally and end the threat of a Nazi invasion.

Gardner grew up in a wealthy English family that ran a timber company for the British Empire. He was a sickly boy who spent more time with his nursemaid than his parents. He spent much of his young life traveling and educating himself, eventually gaining a keen interest in spirituality, religious rituals and the occult. He would return to Britain as an older man, still sickly, but took up a career as a civil servant and amateur archeologist. Meanwhile, his interest in the occult only grew.

After Britain declared war on Germany in 1939, Garder settled in Highcliffe-on-Sea and joined the New Forest Coven, a group of pagan witches in southern England that he believed were continuing a pre-Christian religious order that had been kept secret for centuries. As 1939 turned to 1940, Gardner's affection for his coven grew, as did the coven itself. They practiced folk magic in tune with their beliefs and he began writing books that would later form the foundation for the brand of Wicca that still bears Gardner's name.

Meanwhile, in Europe, things weren't going quite as well for the British Expeditionary Force. Nazi Germany had captured its objectives in Poland, and had already conquered Denmark, Norway, Belgium, The Netherlands and Luxembourg. As the German Army pushed farther into France in May 1940, hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers had to be evacuated from the beaches of Dunkirk. Paris was captured in June 1940, and France was forced to capitulate.

The Battle of Britain was about to begin. And when Prime Minister Winston Churchill ordered Britons to "therefore brace ourselves to our duties," the aged Gardner and his band of witches dutifully complied. Gardner himself became an air raid warden and his home a headquarters for Air Raid Precautions, a civil defense organization. He also joined the local Home Guard as an armorer, providing locals with weapons from his own collection of firearms and preparing molotov cocktails for use in combat.

But Gardner wanted to do more, and believed he had the magical ability to take the fight to the Nazis. The lore of the New Forest Coven included a ritual that had been used twice to defend the British Isles from the threat of an invasion. By creating a "Cone of Power," he and his coven could affect real-world events from the security of the New Forest. British witches had purportedly used the Cone of Power in 1588 to help fight off the Spanish Armada and in 1805 to end Napoleon's threat to England. They were going to use it once more in 1940.

The Cone of Power would be directed toward Hitler's brain to cloud his judgment, weaken his resolve and hasten his downfall. It was Aug. 1, 1940, and Lammas Eve, an important harvest festival in the Wicca religion, when Gardner and his coven met in New Forest. Just north of Highcliffe, they met around an ancient hangman's tree called The Naked Man. From there, the coven walked to Ferny Knapp Inclosure, a wooded area where the ritual would take place.

Instead of the traditional bonfire, the witches used a shuttered lantern (Gardner was still an air raid warden, after all) and danced in a spiral around it while naked (or "skyclad," in the Wiccan vernacular) to generate the magical energy needed to form the cone. As the coven chanted and danced, Gardner invoked the words of the spell and the assault on Hitler's brain began.

We only know the Cone of Power ritual actually happened because Gardner would write about it himself in one of the three books he wrote on witchcraft in the 1950s. J.L. Bracelin, a high priest of Gardnerian Wicca and a contemporary of Gardner's, also wrote about it in his book, "Gerald Gardner, Witch." But did the Cone of Power affect Hitler's brain?

Before August 1940, the Nazi war machine was virtually unstoppable, making few mistakes along the way. Hitler controlled or otherwise dominated most of Western Europe, and those not under Berlin's direct control (aside from Britain) were either too weak or too fearful to make any meaningful resistance. Roughly six weeks after the Cone of Power, Hitler abruptly canceled Operation Sea Lion, the proposed invasion of Britain, in favor of Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union.

Less than a year later, Hitler would invade the USSR and declare war on the United States, neither of which he was bound to do. These were two critical miscalculations on the German leader's part that would have disastrous consequences for his regime. To Gerald Gardner and the New Forest Coven, it was proof positive that the Cone of Power had once again saved Britain.

Slavvy
Dec 11, 2012

The cone of power has the incredible power to prevent things that weren't gonna happen anyway

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

hard to believe our grandparents were so naive that they put more faith in imaginary rituals than grounded real world scientific analysis

anyway i need to go request my early ballot for the next election since its the only way to keep fascists from power smdh at how we didnt just stop hitler with voting before he became a problem

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
https://twitter.com/AgeofNapoleon/status/1707926947949633678?t=FiQevtM91PHyvRTB_zLkOw&s=19

i say swears online
Mar 4, 2005

wasn't his record somewhat mediocre and he died at the beginning of the biggest battle

Slavvy
Dec 11, 2012

He knew he was gonna die tho

Anyway my Trafalgar book implies everyone there was convinced he was the real deal

Endman
May 18, 2010

That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die


Nelson won a pretty important victory at the Battle of the Nile where Napoleon’s flagship l’Orient was obliterated by a powder magazine explosion. That battle basically ensured that Napoleon’s designs on Egypt, the Middle East and his plan to march to India were dead in the water (pun intended).

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:
Nelson was a war-criminal who carried out the first terror-bombing in modern European history.

Suplex Liberace
Jan 18, 2012



his square is pretty cool

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Nelson was a war-criminal who carried out the first terror-bombing in modern European history.

no wonder the british love him so much

War and Pieces
Apr 24, 2022

DID NOT VOTE FOR FETTERMAN

Endman posted:

Nelson won a pretty important victory at the Battle of the Nile where Napoleon’s flagship l’Orient was obliterated by a powder magazine explosion. That battle basically ensured that Napoleon’s designs on Egypt, the Middle East and his plan to march to India were dead in the water (pun intended).

Ah you're talking about the AU where Napoleon rebuilds the Temple

Lpzie
Nov 20, 2006

history isfor dummies. make ur own story

Dameius
Apr 3, 2006

Lpzie posted:

history isfor dummies. make ur own story

That's what Napoleon was doing.

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Lpzie posted:

history isfor dummies. make ur own story

But we do not make it as we please

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

so im watching a video from the great war on youtube about the spanish american war and apparently the main guy in the battle of las guisamas wheeler used to be a confederate general? the gently caress??? we have anticonfederate constitutional amendments that disqualify drumpf from holding office because of his insurrectioning but giving these same guys guns and command of other guys with guns was a ok?????

Some Guy TT has issued a correction as of 01:29 on Oct 2, 2023

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
blame Andrew Johnson, he blanket pardoned the confederates

Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

The South lost the first stage of the Civil War but won in the end.

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

Raskolnikov38 posted:

blame Andrew Johnson, he blanket pardoned the confederates

so what youre saying is theres ample precedent for trump to pardon everyone who was involved with january sixth

Tungsten
Aug 10, 2004

Your Working Boy

StashAugustine posted:

But we do not make it as we please

got poo poo running through my brain
so intense that i can't explain
all alone in my white boy pain
caused by the weight of the traditions of all preceding generations

HootTheOwl
May 13, 2012

Hootin and shootin

Some Guy TT posted:

so what youre saying is theres ample precedent for trump to pardon everyone who was involved with january sixth

Yes. They say they're sorry and it's time to bring the country together again

Lpzie
Nov 20, 2006

Azathoth posted:

The South lost the first stage of the Civil War but won in the end.

Yup !

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Some Guy TT posted:

so im watching a video from the great war on youtube about the spanish american war and apparently the main guy in the battle of las guisamas wheeler used to be a confederate general? the gently caress??? we have anticonfederate constitutional amendments that disqualify drumpf from holding office because of his insurrectioning but giving these same guys guns and command of other guys with guns was a ok?????

In the history of Dungeons & Dragons, Gary Gygax infamously posited a situation where a Lawful Good Paladin was entirely justified in slaughtering infant orcs without falling afoul of their divine ideals, under the principle that orcs were A. born evil, and B. "nits make lice", a phrase coined by John Chivington when perpetrating the Sand Creek massacre.

Later on, as I was reading about the New Mexico campaign in the early stages of the American Civil War and finding that the Union forces were lead by one Colonel Chivington, the name twigged and I looked into it a little further.

It was the same guy.

Charlatan Eschaton
Feb 23, 2018

cool post about making historical maps for a movie

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1708494280334135405.html

https://twitter.com/rajbhagatt/status/1708494308880658714

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

so im reading this old newspaper tv column thats discussing man of marble and man of iron by andrzej wajda the columnist has made reference to how every year at a certain date russian newspapers tell the story of how dubcek was a cia agent and speculates that in time the russian newspapers will say that wajda was also a cia agent and that in the countries where such lies are told the truth only tastes all the sweeter my questions are as follows

was alexander dubcek or andrzej wajda a cia agent

did russians newspapers ever say that dubcek or andrzej wajda were cia agents

why does andrzej wajda appear to have far more numerous and far more well received films under communism when he was censored compared to after communism ended when he presumably wasnt

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
https://twitter.com/Tank_Archives/status/1709943245613269107

Cookie Cutter
Nov 29, 2020

Is there something else that's bothering you Mr. President?

Some Guy TT posted:

so im watching a video from the great war on youtube about the spanish american war and apparently the main guy in the battle of las guisamas wheeler used to be a confederate general? the gently caress??? we have anticonfederate constitutional amendments that disqualify drumpf from holding office because of his insurrectioning but giving these same guys guns and command of other guys with guns was a ok?????

The levels of leniency and benefit of the doubt granted to the Confederates before and after the US civil war* very strongly mirrors modern day Liberals' love affair with Nazis

*and in the case of McClellan, during

Slavvy
Dec 11, 2012


Recently watched this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeWV-9s7az8

Where the incredibly old men restoring it say the panther's final drive wasn't inherently frail but rather a victim of poor materials, in essence the designer coming up with something German resources couldn't actually produce

There's also a bit where they show some factory sabotage, someone welded a tube onto a filler bung so the thing would seem like it was full while actually not being even close

Highly recommend that channel's workshop Wednesday series, it's totally apolitical and entirely just sweaty Australian lads chopping and welding old tanks

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011

A silly little mouse!

Slavvy posted:

There's also a bit where they show some factory sabotage, someone welded a tube onto a filler bung so the thing would seem like it was full while actually not being even close

I’ve never found any good data (and to be fair I don’t see how you could get it or even quantify it at this point) on just how much of the Nazi reputation for unreliable lovely equipment came from intentional sabotage by their slaves. We know it was endemic, but it’s not like Joe McFactoryslave was keeping an official ledger of how many suspension springs he sabotaged this fiscal quarter.

Slavvy
Dec 11, 2012

I suspect that between material shortages, substandard materials, and sabotage, they probably come across as a lot worse than they should be on paper.

Another thing that comes up in the panther video is them putting in little planks of wood to line the wheel hub tubes. The reasoning being that the wood would take up a lot of volume which would otherwise have to be filled with wheel bearing grease, thus saving on grease. Clearly there is a disconnect there because if the designer was aware of this issue he would simply have designed wheel hubs with less wasted volume.

But at the same time, the Nazi vehicles were exquisitely complex and built to a philosophy of occasional total refurbishment vs partial field repair like everyone smart was doing.

Like everything else about the third reich there were multiple compounding causes of failure.

Slavvy has issued a correction as of 23:23 on Oct 5, 2023

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011

A silly little mouse!

Slavvy posted:

I suspect that between material shortages, substandard materials, and sabotage, they probably come across as a lot worse than they should be on paper.

Another thing that comes up in the panther video is them putting in little planks of wood to line the wheel hub tubes. The reasoning being that the wood would take up a lot of volume which would otherwise have to be filled with wheel bearing grease, thus saving on grease. Clearly there is a disconnect there because if the designer was aware of this issue he would simply have designed wheel hubs with less wasted volume.

But at the same time, the Nazi vehicles were exquisitely complex and built to a philosophy of occasional total refurbishment vs partial field repair like everyone smart was doing.

Like everything else about the third reich there were multiple compounding causes of failure.

Oh yeah that’s part of what I meant by “How could you even quantify it?” because even if every worker had kept meticulous records of all their sabotage it was such a smorgasbord of failure from every direction of the whole system that it becomes practically impossible to ascribe blame to which particular defect or deficiency on a particular piece of equipment as the straw that broke the camels back on this or that individual tank.

Endman
May 18, 2010

That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die


Being great on paper but disappointing in practice is basically the motto of the Panzerwaffe

War and Pieces
Apr 24, 2022

DID NOT VOTE FOR FETTERMAN
In Gundam there are a lot of parallels drawn between Zeon and the Third Reich. This conversation has got me wanting a manga about the Mobile Suit factories.

Slavvy
Dec 11, 2012

Putting this in here cause it's a slow moving thread:

Frosted Flake posted:

It's very funny because they've inverted that in a recent book, The Soviet-Israeli War, 1967-1973: The USSR's Military Intervention in the Egyptian-Israeli Conflict

Russia's forceful re-entry into the Middle Eastern arena, and the accentuated continuity of Soviet policy and methods of the 1960s and '70s, highlight the topicality of this groundbreaking study, which confirms the USSR's role in shaping Middle Eastern and global history. This book covers the peak of the USSR's direct military involvement in the Egyptian-Israeli conflict. The head-on clash between US-armed Israeli forces and up to 20,000 Soviet servicemen (at a time) with state-of-the-art weaponry turned the Middle East into the hottest front of the Cold War. The Soviets' success in this war of attrition paved the way for their planning and support of Egypt's cross-canal offensive in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Ginor and Remez challenge a series of long-accepted notions as to the scope, timeline and character of the Soviet intervention and overturn the conventional view that détente led to a curtailment of Egyptian ambitions to recapture the land it lost to Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967. Between this analytical rethink and the introduction of an entirely new genre of sources--memoirs and other publications by Soviet veterans themselves---The Soviet-Israeli War paves the way for scholars to revisit this pivotal moment in world history.

(Famously the Soviets stood by and let the US rebuild the IDF in 1973 while backing away from replenishing the Syrians and Egyptians.)

And I having a stroke or is this saying that the Soviets fielded 2-3 divisions in the middle east and used them to directly fight the IDF? Is this some newly discovered thing or have I just never heard of it out of sheer ignorance? I thought the Arab Israeli wars were Egypt et al fighting the IDF with Soviet equipment + the occasional wink wink nudge nudge Soviet fighter pilot shenanigans and that was it.

HootTheOwl
May 13, 2012

Hootin and shootin
They're challenging your assertion

sullat
Jan 9, 2012

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Nelson was a war-criminal who carried out the first terror-bombing in modern European history.

quote:

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Slavvy
Dec 11, 2012

HootTheOwl posted:

They're challenging your assertion

?? No poo poo, I'm trying to work out if this is cold war fanfic nonsense or if Soviet ground troops actually fought the IDF

HootTheOwl
May 13, 2012

Hootin and shootin

Slavvy posted:

?? No poo poo, I'm trying to work out if this is cold war fanfic nonsense or if Soviet ground troops actually fought the IDF

I think I misunderstood you

HerraS
Apr 15, 2012

Looking professional when committing genocide is essential. This is mostly achieved by using a beret.

Olive drab colour ensures the genocider will remain hidden from his prey until it's too late for them to do anything.



Slavvy posted:

Putting this in here cause it's a slow moving thread:

And I having a stroke or is this saying that the Soviets fielded 2-3 divisions in the middle east and used them to directly fight the IDF? Is this some newly discovered thing or have I just never heard of it out of sheer ignorance? I thought the Arab Israeli wars were Egypt et al fighting the IDF with Soviet equipment + the occasional wink wink nudge nudge Soviet fighter pilot shenanigans and that was it.

The Soviets sent a bunch of anti-aircraft batallions and the dudes manning them, not frontline troops

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

Slavvy posted:

Putting this in here cause it's a slow moving thread:

And I having a stroke or is this saying that the Soviets fielded 2-3 divisions in the middle east and used them to directly fight the IDF? Is this some newly discovered thing or have I just never heard of it out of sheer ignorance? I thought the Arab Israeli wars were Egypt et al fighting the IDF with Soviet equipment + the occasional wink wink nudge nudge Soviet fighter pilot shenanigans and that was it.

I checked reviews for that book and it sounds like the case they're making is that Soviet anti-air forces and aircraft were much more closely integrated into the Egyptian military and the era of interwar conflict from 67-73 than was previously realized. They claim Soviet pilots were flying recon flights over Israel and intercept missions over Egypt, and Soviet troops were directly involved in Egypt's air defence against Israeli air missions. They also argue that the supposed breakdown in relations between Sadat and Moscow that led to Egypt demanding Soviet advisers leave was actually a planned withdrawal because the advisers' mission was completed - they had handed over all their equipment and finished training the Egyptian military how to use it. Apparently they then go on to claim that maybe the advisers didn't even leave afterwards, making it a successful deception to convince the Israelis that a breakdown in Soviet-Egyptian relations meant no attack was imminent, when in fact Egypt was gearing up for the Yom Kippur War.

The reviews make it sound like the authors are known for revisionist histories of Soviet involvement in the Middle East and that this fits that trend, but also that it's well researched with the sources available (lots of memoirs, interviews, etc., without necessarily presenting a smoking gun archival record that proves the case one way or the other) and that the authors are aware of their source limitations and admit that the story is likely to get refined more as others do further research into it.

I'm a little skeptical of the grand claims because they fit a little too perfectly into narratives of the duplicitous Soviets meddling around the world with perfect smokescreens so nobody ever realized they were doing it, which are often quite sensationalized and build on Cold War assumptions that the Soviets were behind every bad thing that ever happened around the world. But on the other hand if more research eventually whittles down the grand claims to "the Soviets were giving more active support to the Egyptians during the interwar period of 67-73 than we previous realized", that doesn't seem so far fetched.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply