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FlamingLiberal posted:Starship Mine is a great episode, come at me haters One of my faves as well. Action Picard may be annoying when you get to late stage TNG movies, but the balance is perfect in Starship Mine. It's a refreshing change from the usual TNG episode structure and tone.
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Oct 2, 2023 02:43
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Taear posted:It does make me appreciate that (other than the Federation) the Dominion is an "empire" of more than just one people though. I know it's come up before but show us some Klingon/Cardassian/Romulan subject peoples that aren't the Bajorans. Is the occupation uniquely horrendous? Feels like it is, but surely there's other species living in these empires? That's one of the more curious blind spots about the Trek setting. Given the amount of territory and power they control, those empires must each have a whole bunch of inhabited alien worlds under their boot, but we never hear anything about them. Maybe it's just that the writers don't want to deal with that complexity when writing an on-and-off ally like the Klingons, or even an "occasionally we see the good in them because this is Star Trek after all" like the Romulans and Cardassians.
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Oct 2, 2023 02:46
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Powered Descent posted:That's one of the more curious blind spots about the Trek setting. Given the amount of territory and power they control, those empires must each have a whole bunch of inhabited alien worlds under their boot, but we never hear anything about them. Maybe it's just that the writers don't want to deal with that complexity when writing an on-and-off ally like the Klingons, or even an "occasionally we see the good in them because this is Star Trek after all" like the Romulans and Cardassians. The Federation, obviously, is the exception, and seems to have the momentum of a runaway freight train from the perspective of other space-nations. Look at this intolerable aggression on the part of the Federation, letting Bajor consider membership when they're mere light-years from Cardassian space-clay!
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Oct 2, 2023 04:50
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I figure that as empires, the Klingons, Romulans and for that matter Cardassians aren't going to allowing their subjects much in the way of independent spaceflight. And raising questions about their occupied planets does indeed get pretty awkward.
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Oct 2, 2023 12:12
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The Federation's relationship with the Klingons in the TNG era does seem to entail an awful lot of politely ignoring the numerous atrocities they must be implicitly commiting
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Oct 2, 2023 12:18
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:I figure that as empires, the Klingons, Romulans and for that matter Cardassians aren't going to allowing their subjects much in the way of independent spaceflight. And raising questions about their occupied planets does indeed get pretty awkward. My "Our Occupied Species Are Doing Just Fine" t-shirt is raising a lot of questions answered by said t-shirt.
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Oct 2, 2023 12:20
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No Dignity posted:The Federation's relationship with the Klingons in the TNG era does seem to entail an awful lot of politely ignoring the numerous atrocities they must be implicitly commiting Heck, one TNG ep explicitly involves Starfleet being accused by the Klingons of arming a rebellious subject world of theirs and it's not a Prime Directive issue, the only business at hand is proving that the charges are false. Nobody even privately questions whether the rebels have the right to revolt or if Klingon imperialism is tolerable, it's just not their concern.
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Oct 2, 2023 12:42
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Powered Descent posted:That's one of the more curious blind spots about the Trek setting. Given the amount of territory and power they control, those empires must each have a whole bunch of inhabited alien worlds under their boot, but we never hear anything about them. Maybe it's just that the writers don't want to deal with that complexity when writing an on-and-off ally like the Klingons, or even an "occasionally we see the good in them because this is Star Trek after all" like the Romulans and Cardassians. I did like that in Discovery, when they visit the Klingon homeworld, there's an Orion quarter and lots of other aliens living there and doing business - made it feel for once like the cosmopolitan center of an empire.
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Oct 2, 2023 13:27
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Who are the species subjugated by the Klingon and Romulan empires
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Oct 2, 2023 18:31
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zoux posted:Who are the species subjugated by the Klingon and Romulan empires Remans, and "not named or really shown" in the canon. But since at least the Klingons are an empire that puts comical amount of over-emphasis on honor by combat, conquest, and battle, its not a stretch of imagination to say that federation has members, they have client states.
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Oct 2, 2023 19:15
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Der Kyhe posted:Remans, and "not named or really shown" in the canon. they show up as generic evil mooks in Nemesis
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Oct 2, 2023 19:21
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Der Kyhe posted:its not a stretch of imagination to say that federation has members, they have client states. Somebody's been reading Z'inn
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Oct 2, 2023 19:23
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Feldegast42 posted:they show up as generic evil mooks in Nemesis Yes, I meant that Remans are the only ones we know the name of. And don't they show also in ENT as bodyguards/enforcers in that one episode where Romulans are testing drone ship to stir up conflict? There are also random non-named aliens working in the Klingons ships from time to time.
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Oct 2, 2023 19:25
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Feldegast42 posted:they show up as generic evil mooks in Nemesis "Nemesis"? Can't really imagine something star trek bearing that name. Sounds made up.
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Oct 2, 2023 19:37
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Once again I'll point to John M. Ford's "The Final Reflection" for an alternate look at Klingon culture and the Empire that, while it was completely superseded by decisions in TNG, is very interesting. Ford's Empire is a conquest state and very much incorporates conquered/enslaved species at many levels, including deliberately breeding cross-species hybrids for various reasons - this is Ford's explanation for the human-looking TOS Klingons, who are specialists in dealing with and fighting the Federation. It's also a ripping good story.
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Oct 2, 2023 20:24
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It would actually make MORE sense if all the non-honor based professions were done by conquered auxiliaries and menials.
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Oct 2, 2023 20:28
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But then it would be ideologically impossible for Federation to ally with such an empire, at least outside something like Dominion war where all enemies of my enemy are my friends. So we get this maybe yes, maybe not-approach with "great houses manage their systems differently but the leaders are OKish. Usually."
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Oct 2, 2023 20:31
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zoux posted:It would actually make MORE sense if all the non-honor based professions were done by conquered auxiliaries and menials. You could also do a cool backstory about a peaceful space faring species making first contact with the Klingons and getting the tables turned on them to explain how they got the tech. Hell, weave it together with their slaying the gods myth and you're going somewhere.
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Oct 2, 2023 20:34
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BonHair posted:You could also do a cool backstory about a peaceful space faring species making first contact with the Klingons and getting the tables turned on them to explain how they got the tech. Hell, weave it together with their slaying the gods myth and you're going somewhere.  What I would do if I was Trek King is write the Klingons as having had a post-atomic horror like Earth did, but Earth got contacted by the Vulcans and got a little uplifting along the way. (This also seems like a good reason if you're like 'but there's no way that (insert modern earth problem) could have been resolved!' -- the Vulcans broke the logjam. How? Very well, thanks.) The Klingons didn't. They crawled out to space on their own. Perhaps they were lucky enough to have a few settlement candidates in the area, but their culture was strongly marked by a Mad Max period.
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Oct 2, 2023 20:43
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The general vibe I get with the Klingons is that the Empire is in the middle of a massive sea change as Klingons encounter new species and ideologies. At the earliest times we see them they are cruel and dominating, but by the latest representations they're essentially just cosplaying Bushido Klingons. Keep in mind 2121 (Broken Bow) was a long time before the latest appearance in 2375. Think about how much your life has in common with someone in 1769
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Oct 2, 2023 20:43
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Angry Salami posted:I did like that in Discovery, when they visit the Klingon homeworld, there's an Orion quarter and lots of other aliens living there and doing business - made it feel for once like the cosmopolitan center of an empire. I think that's in the MMO at least too that the Orions and some other aliens we've seen were subjects of the Klingon empire and I liked the idea that even the TOS Klingons were just another o e of those races whose world is close by but I think in Enterprise they had a way dumber explanation for Klingon redesigns. Season 2 of Discovery also made it more apparent with each of the head Klingon folks looking a bit different.
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Oct 2, 2023 21:11
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Neo Rasa posted:I think that's in the MMO at least too that the Orions and some other aliens we've seen were subjects of the Klingon empire and I liked the idea that even the TOS Klingons were just another o e of those races whose world is close by but I think in Enterprise they had a way dumber explanation for Klingon redesigns. Before SNW rebranded Gorn into not-Aliens I liked the STO interpretation that they were the almost-equal partner inside the Klingon empire who were the primary scientists of the bunch, with varying levels of loyalty towards the empire. And we don't see them that often because they really just like to be left alone to their experiments.
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Oct 2, 2023 21:14
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Look you can't just go around saying you're an empire unless you are subjugating something
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Oct 2, 2023 21:15
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zoux posted:Look you can't just go around saying you're an empire unless you are subjugating something The Klingon word "Empire" translates to "a bunch of cool guys cruising around in their cool spaceships shooting rocks"
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Oct 2, 2023 21:55
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Soul Dentist posted:Think about how much your life has in common with someone in 1769 we both think about the roman empire a lot
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Oct 2, 2023 22:18
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Boxturret posted:"Nemesis"? Can't really imagine something star trek bearing that name. Sounds made up.
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Oct 2, 2023 22:29
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Boxturret posted:The Klingon word "Empire" translates to "a bunch of cool guys cruising around in their cool spaceships shooting rocks" a bunch of cool guys, and their barrel(s) of bloodwine, in.. gently caress, now i want to see someone write J'Rom k'j'Rom's famous novel Three Warriors In A B'rel
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Oct 2, 2023 22:31
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Der Kyhe posted:But then it would be ideologically impossible for Federation to ally with such an empire, at least outside something like Dominion war where all enemies of my enemy are my friends. My Doylist response is that I don't think the really early TNG staff (preproduction through second season) really thought much about what the Klingon society was like in the 24th century, and how and why that would differ so much from the 23rd century that they would join the Federation. I further suspect that some of the writers who came later kind of resented the notion of the Klingons changing to that extent, first retconning Klingon membership in the Federation into a more distinct partnership/alliance between the two, then later having the Klingons be very much "raaaagh we're conquerers damnit!  "My Watsonian response is that perhaps most/all of those conquests happened prior to the alliance, and by the time the alliance was formalized, the Klingons were amenable to a deal along the lines of "you'll get a shitload of material assistance from us in addition to the whole defense pact thing, in exchange for no more wars of aggression against your neighbors."
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Oct 2, 2023 23:59
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The Chase: Well, we had Picard Fightin', Picard Fuckin' and now we've got Picard... Findin', I guess. With a side order of Father Figurin' and Fartin' About. Wasn't feeling it, honestly. The big revelation, at the end was silly. Hell, the manner in which the whole big puzzle was solved was incredibly silly. And how in the hell did the Cardassians, Romulans AND Klingons all catch wind of what Professor Old Man was up to, all at once? I might well have missed a line of dialogue there. But the most burning, important question I have is this; why did Cardassian lady choose to put makeup on those particular neck bumps? What differentiates them from the other neck bumps? I NEED TO KNOW, THIS IS IMPORTANT In Frame of Mind, Riker is a bit out of sorts. We know this because his hair is unkempt. I feel like I've already seen better versions of this already, not least Schisms from earlier in the season. Oddly unremarkable, given the amount of hysterical overacting Frakes is doing. And that's just in the play.
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Oct 3, 2023 00:25
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Y'all are kinda skipping overMcSpanky posted:Heck, one TNG ep explicitly involves Starfleet being accused by the Klingons of arming a rebellious subject world of theirs and it's not a Prime Directive issue, the only business at hand is proving that the charges are false. Nobody even privately questions whether the rebels have the right to revolt or if Klingon imperialism is tolerable, it's just not their concern. TNG directly mentioned one conquered people and implied many others.
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Oct 3, 2023 00:35
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In general, we see a whole lot of entirely affable Klingons around even during the times of the cold war with the Federation so I think you just have to assume there's more to the Empire than violent conquest and domination the same way you have to assume there enough of a culture beyond Honourable Warriors to make their society workable. From how the Klingon/Federation relationship thawed you would have to think there would be numerous ways to get into the Klingons good graces whether it be as protectorates or client states, etc. that aren't just getting conquered.
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Oct 3, 2023 03:34
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In the Dramatis Personae episode of DS9 you seem to have your general warrior Klingons doing a survey mission for weapons/enemies/viability for a colony, and they're "All we found were these balls of psychic energy, boring, we'll had them off to the science division" so it seems like there are different groups that handle different missions.
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Oct 3, 2023 04:30
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Nessus posted:What I would do if I was Trek King is write the Klingons as having had a post-atomic horror like Earth did, but Earth got contacted by the Vulcans and got a little uplifting along the way. (This also seems like a good reason if you're like 'but there's no way that (insert modern earth problem) could have been resolved!' -- the Vulcans broke the logjam. How? Very well, thanks.)
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Oct 3, 2023 06:14
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Took me two tries, but I finally got through The Paradise Syndrome. That episode sure makes choices, doesn't it. I did like the very nearly meta commentary of Spock pointing out that the tribe was an amalgam of Navajo, Mohican and Delaware.
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Oct 3, 2023 08:24
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Seemlar posted:In general, we see a whole lot of entirely affable Klingons around even during the times of the cold war with the Federation so I think you just have to assume there's more to the Empire than violent conquest and domination the same way you have to assume there enough of a culture beyond Honourable Warriors to make their society workable.
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Oct 3, 2023 14:02
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Payndz posted:It was that episode of Voyager where Chakotay gets brainwashed into thinking some aliens are monsters to be wiped out. Yeah, I had to look it up too. It's better remembered as the episode with painful thesaurus dialog.
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Oct 3, 2023 14:46
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That episode is so hard to watch thanks to the crazy dialog
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Oct 3, 2023 16:15
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Nessus posted:Another possibility is that the Klingon government name is actually something like 'The Military League United Under The Glorious Wisdom of Kahless' but Klingon diplomats were like "hmm, KLINGON EMPIRE. That's metal. Go with that. We are the KLINGON EMPIRE to you hew-mons." *gowron eyes* There's an emperor though
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Oct 3, 2023 16:40
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Soul Dentist posted:There's an emperor though
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Oct 3, 2023 16:45
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Ignorant p'tak! Saying 'An' emperor implies anyone could ever be comparable to Kahless!
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Oct 3, 2023 16:52
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