USCE 2023: Please let them shove a camera up your butt

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USCE 2023: Please let them shove a camera up your butt

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haveblue: Aug 15, 2005; Toilet Rascal

Bel Shazar posted:

So, not specifically the Fourth Reich, but republicans have the rest covered.

The 3.5th Reich. Still nazis but you can cast different spells at them

# ? Oct 3, 2023 02:05

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# ? May 28, 2024 11:48

Shooting Blanks: Jun 6, 2007; Real bullets mess up how cool this thing looks.

-Blade

Gyges posted:

It is important to keep in mind that McCarthy promised everyone everything in his humiliating 15 round Speaker win. Immediately he started responding to people trying to call in their favors by asking where it was written down, while other members got pissed at some of the promises that they didn't get.

At the same time, a large portion of the caucus are in districts where they personally will feel no heat for Republicans being in disarray. As long as they sling that raw, bloody, meat they get rewarded for any amount of arson to the party that they commit. They may not be incentivized to directly cause an embarrassing failure to the party/brand by setting up another humiliation gauntlet for Speaker, but they are absolutely not going to be penalized for it. Matt Gaetz isn't the only guy getting repeatedly re-elected despite being a horrendously greasy and disgusting poo poo stain.

The Republican House isn't getting anything passed by the Senate and White House. So the calculation isn't what best gets some policy done or raises a disingenuous issue. The questions that 5 Republicans have to ask is simply, do they like McCarthy and, if not, will they be in any way penalized for shiving him in the gut by voting him out as Speaker. We've only got like 1 more year of this Congress anyway, so giving oneself over to Chaos can be enticing. Especially when you believe that you should be throwing monkey wrenches into any available governmental gear, and thus inaction is the best possible outcome of your term.

Maybe there's enough non-insane and out of touch rich rear end in a top hat Republican donors calling up Reps to keep Gaetz from getting his 5, however if not we get another shot at most votes to install a Speaker. You can do it, Kevin!

I'd say there are plenty of non-insane, very rich Republican donors that desperately want to see the IRS reforms rolled back. A non-functional house can't do that, and an extra year for the IRS to keep digging can get expensive, fast.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 02:14

Skex: Feb 22, 2012; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

...can *you*? Defining fascist on terms other than 'I know it when I see it' is actually pretty difficult, lol.

Mussolini's cult of fragile masculinity is my definition, we know them by who they hate, which is anyone who threatens their idea of masculinity.

Fascism is social darwinism mixed with misogyny. That's why every fascist movement hates feminism or anything that undermines their ideal of masculinity. It's just dude’s pissed that they can't treat women as property and women who are okay with it :biotruths:

as political philosophy. .

They hate libs and leftists because we're the ones telling them "no you can't do that." and they hate all the people that they blame for feminizing men, feminists, LGBTQ+ people most black people (oh yeah racism is white men feeling feminized by black men) and other minorities that the Fash have decided shouldn't have exist.

The bosses just like it because it keeps the workers distracted and at each other's throats and part of the whole survival of the fittest social darwinism misunderstanding of that term fit thing is rich people are obviously superb examples of masculinity demonstrated by their success and rightfully entitled to their luxuries and wealth.

That's why all the talk on the alt-right and manosphere about the inherent nature of hierarchies and feminazies chemicals in the water turning you gay, gay people existing, trans people (especially trans women) existing.

People spend all this time and ink arguing about what a fascist is but ultimately it is really simple, we know fascists by the people they hate. No one can figure out what policies they have because policies are irrelevant. That's something that will be worked out through competition guided by the hand their avatar of masculinity. Because ultimately an hierarchical system has to have someone at the top.

Fascism is a reaction to the perceived loss in status of the dominant male group, their targets are always anyone whose existence undermines their vision is masculinity. Trans people were some of the first victims of the Nazis. Gay people, feminists, leftists , minorities and liberals. Their policies are irrelevant, whatever trappings of authority they drape their system in all that matters is that they enforce their purity of purpose.

It's why the manosphere is basically the alt-right radicalization pipeline. Incels, MRA, PUA, proud boys etc all ultimately end up in the fascist camp. It's why gamer culture is so toxic or the tech field. I always joke that men need women around to keep us grounded, most of my "listen to how much of a dumb rear end stories" of my youth are premised with a bunch of dudes were hanging out. Mix that with bitterness about not getting laid and that's a straight shot to Naziville.

Who they hate defines the fascists.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 03:08

Paracaidas: Sep 24, 2016; Consistently Tedious!

coelomate posted:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/10/02/kevin-mccarthy-matt-gaetz/

It's fast moving and obviously hard to find a true "whip" count, but that rings true to me.

Doubly hard as the actual whip is McCarthy's rumored replacement (which makes the failed votes and uncertainty of the past week... interesting)

Boris Galerkin posted:

I heard on one of the news podcasts today that the dems had a deal with McCarthy in that if they voted to fund the government McCarthy would do an Ukraine funding this/next week. The impression I got was that if it was a crazy person who took the speakership then there would be no Ukraine funding?

In theory, someone unseating McCarthy and avoiding the 15 round disaster would have to have won over the relatively small fringe of the GOP that wants to cut Ukraine funding (among their other demands).

This is where it's helpful to remember that the military aid the US has been providing is mostly (solely?) via the President's drawdown authority, which needs no action from the house... which, best as I can gather, means that the funding is mostly to replenish our own stocks. It's possible (though I still insist unlikely) that Gaetz can kill Ukraine funding despite the strong majorities favoring it in each party. That doesn't actually result in the outcome I sense you're concerned about though. That outcome would require Gaetz to pass a bill through both chambers with a vetoproof majority to say actually Biden can't drawdown to Ukraine any more, or for the GOP to actually cut the military's funding and stockpiles. I'd give Michelle Obama better odds of being the next speaker than either of those scenarios coming to pass.

**caveat: I'm fuzzy overall on Ukraine and the mechanics of our aid so grain of salt and if anyone knows better, please correct me!

# ? Oct 3, 2023 03:30

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Skex posted:

Mussolini's cult of fragile masculinity is my definition, we know them by who they hate, which is anyone who threatens their idea of masculinity.

Fascism is social darwinism mixed with misogyny. That's why every fascist movement hates feminism or anything that undermines their ideal of masculinity. It's just dude’s pissed that they can't treat women as property and women who are okay with it as political philosophy. .

They hate libs and leftists because we're the ones telling them "no you can't do that." and they hate all the people that they blame for feminizing men, feminists, LGBTQ+ people most black people (oh yeah racism is white men feeling feminized by black men) and other minorities that the Fash have decided shouldn't have exist.

The bosses just like it because it keeps the workers distracted and at each other's throats and part of the whole survival of the fittest social darwinism misunderstanding of that term fit thing is rich people are obviously superb examples of masculinity demonstrated by their success and rightfully entitled to their luxuries and wealth.

That's why all the talk on the alt-right and manosphere about the inherent nature of hierarchies and feminazies chemicals in the water turning you gay, gay people existing, trans people (especially trans women) existing.

People spend all this time and ink arguing about what a fascist is but ultimately it is really simple, we know fascists by the people they hate. No one can figure out what policies they have because policies are irrelevant. That's something that will be worked out through competition guided by the hand their avatar of masculinity. Because ultimately an hierarchical system has to have someone at the top.

Fascism is a reaction to the perceived loss in status of the dominant male group, their targets are always anyone whose existence undermines their vision is masculinity. Trans people were some of the first victims of the Nazis. Gay people, feminists, leftists , minorities and liberals. Their policies are irrelevant, whatever trappings of authority they drape their system in all that matters is that they enforce their purity of purpose.

It's why the manosphere is basically the alt-right radicalization pipeline. Incels, MRA, PUA, proud boys etc all ultimately end up in the fascist camp. It's why gamer culture is so toxic or the tech field. I always joke that men need women around to keep us grounded, most of my "listen to how much of a dumb rear end stories" of my youth are premised with a bunch of dudes were hanging out. Mix that with bitterness about not getting laid and that's a straight shot to Naziville.

Who they hate defines the fascists.

Sorry, but that doesn't make any real sense.

First of all, fascists were hardly the first people to hate gay people, feminists, leftists, minorities, and/or liberals. Hate for the marginalized is nowhere near being the exclusive domain of fascists.

Second of all, it leaves out a number of factors that are widely associated with fascism and its offshoots. For example, both the Mussolini and Hitler regimes featured extreme nationalism and irredentism, a fetish toward exaggerated traditionalism paired with a desire to modernize society, a push toward an corporatist economic system (which is not the same as capitalism), and a strong desire to minimize the power and influence of organized religion and supplant it with fascism as a religion, and of course we can't forget the authoritarianism.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 03:33

Scags McDouglas: Sep 9, 2012

I usually find news on SA way before the mainstream outlets but I'm surprised this hasn't been broached yet:

John Kelly goes on the record to confirm several disturbing stories about Trump
'
He's mainly corroborating a lot of the private anti-military gaffes, but it's interesting to see one of the final horses cross the finish line and flip. It's incredible about the sheer volume of people that (A) Ruined their lives to enslave themselves to Trump or (B) In this case, attempt to rehab their image after the fact by insisting they were disgusted the whole time and secretly, if anything, an insurgent looking to control his destruction. Which of course always conveniently whistles past the consistent question of "What stopped you from speaking out DURING it?"

# ? Oct 3, 2023 03:50

Bel Shazar: Sep 14, 2012

Main Paineframe posted:

Sorry, but that doesn't make any real sense.

First of all, fascists were hardly the first people to hate gay people, feminists, leftists, minorities, and/or liberals. Hate for the marginalized is nowhere near being the exclusive domain of fascists.

Second of all, it leaves out a number of factors that are widely associated with fascism and its offshoots. For example, both the Mussolini and Hitler regimes featured extreme nationalism and irredentism, a fetish toward exaggerated traditionalism paired with a desire to modernize society, a push toward an corporatist economic system (which is not the same as capitalism), and a strong desire to minimize the power and influence of organized religion and supplant it with fascism as a religion, and of course we can't forget the authoritarianism.

With Domionionism taking the place of wanting to minimize organized religion, again, this is the modern republican party.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 03:51

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

Scags McDouglas posted:

I usually find news on SA way before the mainstream outlets but I'm surprised this hasn't been broached yet:

John Kelly goes on the record to confirm several disturbing stories about Trump
'
He's mainly corroborating a lot of the private anti-military gaffes, but it's interesting to see one of the final horses cross the finish line and flip. It's incredible about the sheer volume of people that (A) Ruined their lives to enslave themselves to Trump or (B) In this case, attempt to rehab their image after the fact by insisting they were disgusted the whole time and secretly, if anything, an insurgent looking to control his destruction. Which of course always conveniently whistles past the consistent question of "What stopped you from speaking out DURING it?"

It's neat that he confirmed it, but as you say, he still worked for him during it.

Everyone who doesn't vote for Trump already believed that stuff, and all the MAGA folks will memory hole it.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 03:55

archduke.iago: Mar 1, 2011; Nostalgia used to be so much better.

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1709038985308184576

# ? Oct 3, 2023 03:56

Byzantine: Sep 1, 2007

Fascism's core is ultranationalism and therefore takes on different aspects depending on the nation it is fermenting in. Italian Fascism was not compatible with German Nazism and the Italians knew it, Mussolini just gambled on being able to gain enough by siding with Germany that he could win the inevitable war when they got around to exterminating the Southern Europeans.

American Fascism looks like the Confederacy - a democracy with a constitution, elections, a Bill of Rights, separation of powers, and abject unending horrors for anybody not rich and white and male.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 03:58

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Byzantine posted:

Fascism's core is ultranationalism and therefore takes on different aspects depending on the nation it is fermenting in. Italian Fascism was not compatible with German Nazism and the Italians knew it, Mussolini just gambled on being able to gain enough by siding with Germany that he could win the inevitable war when they got around to exterminating the Southern Europeans.

American Fascism looks like the Confederacy - a democracy with a constitution, elections, a Bill of Rights, separation of powers, and abject unending horrors for anybody not rich and white and male.

If you are trying to define fascism and don't even talk about the distribution of power (central vs distributed, i.e. fascism leans much more towards central), you don't understand what fascism is.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Oct 3, 2023

# ? Oct 3, 2023 04:06

I AM GRANDO: Aug 20, 2006

Kalit posted:

If you are trying to define fascism and don't even talk about the distribution of power (central vs distributed, i.e. fascism leans much more towards central), you don't understand what fascism is.

Bob Paxton has articulated a theory of para-fascism that exists on a continuum with true fascism, and arguably the US is and has often been a para-fascist state, or had elements of one. The original nazis took a number of key concepts from the US when working out their own systems.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 05:04

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Some I wrote a couple years ago on the GOP conservative vs GOP fascists topics while going through the Socialist Decision:

Chapter 2: The forms of Political Romanticism

Conservative and Revolutionary Forms
This chapter deal with basically what we see now within the Republican Party. The old guard gently caress you got mine tax cutting, regulation busting, poor hating, racist fuckers and the paranoid fringe, John Birch society, Alex Jone, Tumpist, racist fascist motherfuckers. Basically this chapter provides working definition and descriptions of the two groups on the right often now called �conservatives� and �Trumpists�.

quote:
Political Romanticism can assume either of two forms: it can be conservative or revolutionary(Brandor�s note revolutionary here is the fascists if it�s not clear). The two forms can be combined in many ways, but they also stand in opposition to one another. The conservative form is based on the attempt to defend the spiritual and social residues of the bond of origin against the autonomous system, and wherever possible restore past forms. It appears in groups that have not yet been completely integrated into bourgeois society, primarily landowners, peasants, nobles, priests, and artisans.

So what is conservativism here. It�s the residual feudal elements of society reacting to liberalism and the bourgeois society attempting to restore �past form� eg. Feudalism. This is the first category of reaction to the broken myth of origin. It�s the attempt to restore the old broken myth back to it�s status quo. It wants the old back or restored.
The second type is revolutionary romanticism

quote:
The revolutionary form tries to gain a basis for new ties to the origin by a devastating attack on the rational system. It is carried out by those groups that have entered into the inner structure of the rational system without having lost continuity with the groups of origin from which they are descended. But now they feel threatened by complete absorption into the system, on the one hand, and by the mechanization and loss of status which this system effects, on the other hand. Here we find primarily office employees, certain groups of bureaucrats, and those intellectuals who have no chance of being incorporated into the rational system; but there are also some farmers and artisans who are being hit specially hard by the crisis, to the point of hopelessness

You�re probably already picturing specific groups and specific people

# ? Oct 3, 2023 05:31

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Rather than derailing this thread it might be better to reactivate the fascism definition thread, possibly with some involvement with history goons who are more familiar with the underlying literature and theory.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 06:23

Bel Shazar: Sep 14, 2012

Discendo Vox posted:

Rather than derailing this thread it might be better to reactivate the fascism definition thread, possibly with some involvement with history goons who are more familiar with the underlying literature and theory.

I'm ok with it being stipulated in the thread that Republicans are fascist AF. Otherwise, Republican neo-nazism remains a very US current event.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 08:08

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Bel Shazar posted:

I know it's just wikipedia, but here's the first paragraph on neo-nazism:

Which is a highly apt definition of the modern Republican party.

Second paragraph;

So, not specifically the Fourth Reich, but republicans have the rest covered.

It might be America's own particular brand of it, but on the whole the Republican party is a neo-nazi party.

So you just take a definition that doesn't fit even closely to what you are looking at, and just decide that it's a perfect fit? I love to watch this :freep:

logic in action :allears:

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Oct 3, 2023 09:19

brugroffil: Nov 30, 2015

# ? Oct 3, 2023 11:41

BiggerBoat: Sep 26, 2007; Don't you tell me my business again.

I posted this in another thread but, whoo boy

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/02/politics/john-kelly-donald-trump-us-service-members-veterans/index.html

Exclusive: John Kelly goes on the record to confirm several disturbing stories about Trump

I'd quote some excerpts but the whole thing is worth a read and pretty short.

Get ready for calls of what lying liar John Kelly is and add him to the list of people picking on poor Donald.

Or it's fake news.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 12:00

The Top G: Jul 19, 2023; by Fluffdaddy

BiggerBoat posted:

I posted this in another thread but, whoo boy

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/02/politics/john-kelly-donald-trump-us-service-members-veterans/index.html

Exclusive: John Kelly goes on the record to confirm several disturbing stories about Trump

I'd quote some excerpts but the whole thing is worth a read and pretty short.

Get ready for calls of what lying liar John Kelly is and add him to the list of people picking on poor Donald.

Or it's fake news.

quote:

In the statement, Kelly is confirming, on the record, a number of details in a 2020 story in The Atlantic by editor-in-chief Jeffrey Goldberg, including Trump turning to Kelly on Memorial Day 2017, as they stood among those killed in Afghanistan and Iraq in Section 60 at Arlington National Cemetery, and saying, �I don�t get it. What was in it for them?�

When he�s right, he�s right.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 12:12

Bel Shazar: Sep 14, 2012

Nenonen posted:

So you just take a definition that doesn't fit even closely to what you are looking at, and just decide that it's a perfect fit? I love to watch this logic in action

I count like 12 distinct points in the article and 11 match up with republicans.

92% same... you're right, not related at all.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 12:38

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Bel Shazar posted:

I count like 12 distinct points in the article and 11 match up with republicans.

92% same... you're right, not related at all.

What are you talking about? Where has the party started pushing to reinstate nazi ideology?

Kalit fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Oct 3, 2023

# ? Oct 3, 2023 13:41

bird food bathtub: Aug 9, 2003; College Slice

Kalit posted:

What are you talking about? Where has the party started pushing to reinstate nazi ideology?

Even Republicans are smart enough to figure out if you actually straight up say the words "I'm a fan of Nazis and their ideology is good, actually" it costs you a lot of support. Not as much as it should cost them in a just and healthy society, but enough to make things challenging on the political stage for right now.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 14:02

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

BiggerBoat posted:

I posted this in another thread but, whoo boy

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/02/politics/john-kelly-donald-trump-us-service-members-veterans/index.html

Exclusive: John Kelly goes on the record to confirm several disturbing stories about Trump

I'd quote some excerpts but the whole thing is worth a read and pretty short.

This was the most eyebrow-raising bit for me:

quote:

Kelly�s statement also refers to a remark Trump made in response to that same article, which describes Milley, in the closing days of the Trump presidency in 2020, receiving intelligence that the Chinese military feared Trump was about to order a military strike on it. Milley, in a call authorized by Trump administration officials, reassured his Chinese counterparts that such a strike was not going to happen.

That call was first reported in 2021 in the book �Peril� by Bob Woodward and Robert Costa, but Trump said this past week on his social media site that the call was �an act so egregious that, in times gone by, the punishment would have been DEATH.�

Asked for reaction to the suggestion that he deserves execution, Milley told Norah O�Donnell of �60 Minutes� that he wouldn�t �comment directly on those, those things. But I can tell you that this military, this soldier, me, will never turn our back on that Constitution.�

So this is the oath every enlisted that joins the US Military takes:

quote:

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

This is the oath that officers take upon being appointed to rank:

quote:

I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.

So Milleys response can be taken two ways:
1) I took an oath to obey the orders of the president of the United States and officers above me, and that�s what I did; there was no insubordination.

2) I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and that includes this fuckstick trying for a coup and I assure you I am not alone in the military in that.

I increasingly get the feeling we were a hell of a lot closer to a military takeover than has been publicly made known, and while it would not have been in support of Trump (the leadership seems to hate his guts almost to a man, and the CIA doesn�t seem far behind) it would have been a serious blow to democracy nonetheless.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 14:03

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

I thought it was generally agreed that Pelosi, McConnell and Milley were running the show between 1/6 and 1/21.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 14:17

Zotix: Aug 14, 2011

Oracle posted:

This was the most eyebrow-raising bit for me:

So this is the oath every enlisted that joins the US Military takes:

This is the oath that officers take upon being appointed to rank:

So Milleys response can be taken two ways:
1) I took an oath to obey the orders of the president of the United States and officers above me, and that’s what I did; there was no insubordination.

2) I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and that includes this fuckstick trying for a coup and I assure you I am not alone in the military in that.

I increasingly get the feeling we were a hell of a lot closer to a military takeover than has been publicly made known, and while it would not have been in support of Trump (the leadership seems to hate his guts almost to a man, and the CIA doesn’t seem far behind) it would have been a serious blow to democracy nonetheless.

Go look at r/conservative or patriots.win over the past week for anything Milley. The right absolutely believes Milley was a traitor by going behind Trump's back and communicating with China.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 14:24

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

I often go back to that time Trump told Defense Secretary Mattis to kill Bashir Al-Assad, and Mattis said "OK, I'll get right on it" and then told everyone else listening on the call "Yeah, we're not going to do to that."

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-reportedly-told-mattis-he-wanted-to-assassinate-bashar-al-assad-2018-9

quote:

Mattis reportedly told Trump he'd get "right on it" in an apparent attempt to pacify the president. He simultaneously told a senior aide they would not be going down that road.

"We�re not going to do any of that. We�re going to be much more measured," Mattis told the aide at the time, Woodward wrote.

Technically treason? Coup-like behavior? The same strategy everyone uses with their narcissistic old-man boss is technically illegal when he's the president, but it's not like Mattis was marching troops into Capitol Hill.

I don't think anything Milley says indicates the military would overthrow the government if Trump gets re-elected. It just indicates there are orders they'll ignore, which is not removing Trump from power, just removing him from some powers.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 14:33

Angry_Ed: Mar 30, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Zotix posted:

Go look at r/conservative or patriots.win over the past week for anything Milley. The right absolutely believes Milley was a traitor by going behind Trump's back and communicating with China.

While probably at the same time believing Trump was in the right for trying to set up a secret backchannel to the Kremlin with the help of Erik Prince.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 14:35

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

bird food bathtub posted:

Even Republicans are smart enough to figure out if you actually straight up say the words "I'm a fan of Nazis and their ideology is good, actually" it costs you a lot of support. Not as much as it should cost them in a just and healthy society, but enough to make things challenging on the political stage for right now.

Well, that just circles down to the original question: "what was the Nazis' ideology?".

Honestly, I'd go so far as to say that that Wikipedia summary is a pretty dubious definition. I personally doubt that very many American neo-Nazis understand, care about, or want to restore Nazi ideology. They're just publicly worshipping and cosplaying history's most famous genocidal racist. White supremacists don't really have a wide array of heroes to choose from, after all. They're not into him because of his theories on state organization or economic strategy, they're into him because he's probably the most famous and successful white nationalist in history.

American Neo-Nazis don't want to bring about a corporatist economic system or invade Mexico and Canada in the name of Lebensraum. They just want to murder their political opponents, downgrade everyone who isn't a white Protestant to official second-class citizens, and and enslave, deport, or kill substantial portions of that population. Which is basically the same set of political objectives American white supremacists have held since before Mussolini was even born. They might be borrowing symbols and rhetoric from the Nazis, but they're not borrowing ideological concepts from the Nazis - the Nazis are the ones who borrowed from them.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 14:41

zoux: Apr 28, 2006

https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1709209301611409498

There is going to be A LOT of this kind of stuff over the next however-long-it-takes-to-resolve-the-speaker-poo poo but Sherman reporting McCarthy saying this is significant, imo

https://twitter.com/Olivia_Beavers/status/1709212746611298590

Yeah see, that's a little different. I know that the Lunatic Wing has been saying they'd vote to remove, but have any congressional republicans said they'd consider joining Dems for a moderate speaker?

# ? Oct 3, 2023 15:27

coelomate: Oct 21, 2020

McCarth Speaker Vote #16 will be this afternoon :munch:

# ? Oct 3, 2023 15:27

haveblue: Aug 15, 2005; Toilet Rascal

zoux posted:

https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1709209301611409498

There is going to be A LOT of this kind of stuff over the next however-long-it-takes-to-resolve-the-speaker-poo poo but Sherman reporting McCarthy saying this is significant, imo

https://twitter.com/Olivia_Beavers/status/1709212746611298590

Yeah see, that's a little different. I know that the Lunatic Wing has been saying they'd vote to remove, but have any congressional republicans said they'd consider joining Dems for a moderate speaker?

Is he saying he'll see the writing on the wall and resign or is he just talking about the basic math to vote him out?

# ? Oct 3, 2023 15:29

Shooting Blanks: Jun 6, 2007; Real bullets mess up how cool this thing looks.

-Blade

haveblue posted:

Is he saying he'll see the writing on the wall and resign or is he just talking about the basic math to vote him out?

He won't resign, he'll make them vote him out.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 15:30

Morrow: Oct 31, 2010

If he intended to go out with dignity, he would've brought a full budget to the floor, passed it with democratic votes, and resigned while flipping the bird to Gaetz.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 15:42

RoboChrist 9000: Dec 14, 2006; Mater Dolorosa

Main Paineframe posted:

Well, that just circles down to the original question: "what was the Nazis' ideology?".

Honestly, I'd go so far as to say that that Wikipedia summary is a pretty dubious definition. I personally doubt that very many American neo-Nazis understand, care about, or want to restore Nazi ideology. They're just publicly worshipping and cosplaying history's most famous genocidal racist. White supremacists don't really have a wide array of heroes to choose from, after all. They're not into him because of his theories on state organization or economic strategy, they're into him because he's probably the most famous and successful white nationalist in history.

American Neo-Nazis don't want to bring about a corporatist economic system or invade Mexico and Canada in the name of Lebensraum. They just want to murder their political opponents, downgrade everyone who isn't a white Protestant to official second-class citizens, and and enslave, deport, or kill substantial portions of that population. Which is basically the same set of political objectives American white supremacists have held since before Mussolini was even born. They might be borrowing symbols and rhetoric from the Nazis, but they're not borrowing ideological concepts from the Nazis - the Nazis are the ones who borrowed from them.

I think that fascism is easy to define but also by definition not political. Fascism, to me, is something that outside of modern America and ancient Sparta is vanishingly rare - by my rigorous definition most Nazis were not fascists but rather extremist conservatives.
To put it simply, I think fascism is what happens when the map becomes the territory. It's a psycho-social aberration that forms when extremist conservativism is allowed to fester and reach a sort of critical mass. To the conservative, violence is one of the foremost virtues of manhood and the first and generally best way of solving problems, but it is still ultimately a means to an end. To the fascist violence is the ends, not the means. Consider how Rush Limbaugh never articulated any positive policies or ideals and only complained and celebrated death. Or Doing X to Own the Libs. The reason fascism can seem difficult to pin down or define is because it is not a coherent ideology or belief system; it is psychopathic sadism masquerading as one.

You see these ideas in some of Himmler and Mussolini's writings. Fascism is what happens violence becomes an ends and not a means. You make your enemies suffer not because you believe it is an effective way of accomplishing some kind of coherent goal, but simply because their suffering brings you pleasure. The cruelty, in the most true and final sense, is the point.

People like to quote the 'boot stamping on a human face forever' bit from 1984, but really the preceding part of that quote is more important in a lot of ways; "There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always � do not forget this, Winston � always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless." That's fascism. Sadism that has learned to wear politics as a mask.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 15:49

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

A court has refused to issue an injunction requested by major drug companies to prevent the new prescription drug negotiation program implemented as part of the IRA from going into effect. There are other lawsuits by different pharma companies and trade associations challenging the law under different arguments, so it is not 100% in the legal clear right now.

But, after the court ruling all the companies who own the 10 major pharmaceuticals that were chosen for the first round of negotiations now say they will agree to participate in the price negotiation program. The companies note that this doesn't mean they are not opposed to the program anymore, but the program imposes harsh penalties on those that don't agree to participate (an excise tax of up to 95% of the sales in the country and no longer being covered under Medicaid or Medicare) and they have opted to negotiate prices rather than take those losses.

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1709221337707803079

quote:

Drugmakers agree to negotiate prices in Medicare even as they sue to stop the program

The manufacturers of the 10 initial drugs chosen for Medicare�s price negotiation program have agreed to participate in the historic initiative, the Biden administration said Tuesday.

However, they are not giving up their efforts to overturn the program in court, even after the industry lost its first legal battle on Friday.

The drugmakers � which include Bristol Myers Squibb, Merck, Johnson & Johnson�s Janssen division, Novo Nordisk and AstraZeneca, among others � will now spend months in talks with the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services to determine maximum fair prices for their products.

The agency will publish the agreed-upon prices by September 1, 2024, and those prices will take effect in 2026.

The White House heralded the manufacturers� participation in the program, which was authorized by the Inflation Reduction Act, which Democrats pushed through Congress last year.

�For decades, Big Pharma fought to block Medicare from directly negotiating lower drug prices for seniors and other Medicare beneficiaries, while nearly three in ten Americans struggle to afford their medications because of cost,� the White House said in a fact sheet. �President Biden and Congressional Democrats finally beat Big Pharma and allowed Medicare to directly negotiate lower drug prices by passing the Inflation Reduction Act � despite zero Republicans voting in favor of the bill.�

Drugmakers fight in court

But the drug industry is continuing to try to halt the negotiation process. Manufacturers and industry groups have filed multiple lawsuits in federal courts across the US. They each contend that the program is unconstitutional in various ways.

Several said in emailed statements to CNN that they were essentially forced to participate.

�We have no choice other than to sign the �agreement,�� a Bristol Myers Squibb spokesperson said. �If we did not sign, we�d be required to pay impossibly high penalties unless we withdraw all of our medicines from Medicare and Medicaid. That is not a real choice.�

Merck said it was signing the agreement �under protest.�

�While we disagree on both legal and policy grounds with the IRA�s new program, withdrawing all of the company�s products from Medicare and Medicaid would have devastating consequences for the millions of Americans who rely on our innovative medicines, and it is not tenable for any manufacturer to abandon nearly half of the U.S. prescription drug market,� the company said.

�The choice between doing so and weathering the IRA�s massive fines and taxes is no choice at all. As we enter this next phase with the government, we remain focused on challenging the constitutionality of the statute in our ongoing litigation,� Merck continued.

It will take time for the lawsuits to wind their way through the courts. An effort to stop the process before the October 1 deadline for the manufacturers to sign the agreements failed Friday when a federal court judge in Ohio denied a request by the US Chamber of Commerce to issue a preliminary injunction.

First 10 drugs
The Biden administration unveiled in late August the names of the first 10 drugs subject to price negotiations. They are: Eliquis, Jardiance, Xarelto, Januvia, Farxiga, Entresto, Enbrel, Imbruvica and Stelara, as well as Fiasp and certain other insulins made by Novo Nordisk, including NovoLog.

The medications treat heart disease, certain cancers, diabetes and autoimmune diseases, among other conditions.

After this initial round, the Department of Health and Human Services secretary can negotiate another 15 drugs for 2027 and again for 2028. The number rises to 20 drugs a year for 2029 and beyond.

Drugmakers that don�t comply with the process will have to pay an excise tax of up to 95% of the medications� US sales or pull all their products from the Medicare and Medicaid markets. The pharmaceutical industry contends that the true penalty can be as high as 1,900% of sales.

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Oct 3, 2023

# ? Oct 3, 2023 16:18

Shooting Blanks: Jun 6, 2007; Real bullets mess up how cool this thing looks.

-Blade

https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1709225353107906586

quote:

🚨 BREAKING NEWS --
@RepJeffries
"definitively" called for a vote against any procedural motion to delay the motion to vacate

AND he said Democrats should vote to oust McCarthy.

(in case it doesn't show up since embeds don't always work) - apparently Jeffries decided how he wants the Dems to play this.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 16:19

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

zoux posted:

Yeah see, that's a little different. I know that the Lunatic Wing has been saying they'd vote to remove, but have any congressional republicans said they'd consider joining Dems for a moderate speaker?

Even if they were considering it privately, there is absolutely no way in hell they would say so this early. That's the kind of thing you don't want to say until you're absolutely 100% sure that you're going to need to do so. I wouldn't expect any hints at something like that until McCarthy is ousted and there's been a few failed votes for new GOP Speaker candidates.

We can't forget that even for moderates in purple districts, the political risk in cooperating with Democrats at all, in any way, is rather high. If the House successfully votes in a Democratic speaker while the House has a Republican majority, every Republican that backed the effort will almost certainly be facing a well-funded primary challenger with the full backing of right-wing media. And while some purple-district Republicans might be able to successfully weather such an attack, it's still something they'd rather avoid as long as any other acceptable option exists.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 16:23

Zotix: Aug 14, 2011

Do we know when the vote might be today?

# ? Oct 3, 2023 16:32

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; YOU CAN TRUST ME!*

_{*Israeli Government-affiliated poster}

Shooting Blanks posted:

https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1709225353107906586

(in case it doesn't show up since embeds don't always work) - apparently Jeffries decided how he wants the Dems to play this.

Jeffries confirms it publicly. Everyone is being asked to sink McCarthy and not help the Republicans in any way unless they agree to a power sharing agreement.

https://twitter.com/heatherscope/status/1709225824430281214
https://twitter.com/LACaldwellDC/status/1709227128565195159

That means the potential scenarios are (in order of likelihood):

- Some members of the Freedom Caucus get spooked and don't vote against McCarthy.
- Chaos for a day or so until people get tired and McCarthy ends up back in the spot.
- Several days of chaos with no speaker until maybe somebody like Steve Scalise or some compromise candidate among Republicans can be reached.
- Some kind of power sharing agreement where Dems can bring bills to floor votes or in committee even if the speaker disagrees.
- Everyone decides to go home and just try again after the 2024 election.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 16:33

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 28, 2024 11:48

Paracaidas: Sep 24, 2016; Consistently Tedious!

https://twitter.com/maxpcohen/status/1709213863244099887

Spanberger, who sucks, is responding similarly. Generally one should never trust her or her crew ("frontliners" :jerkbag:

thanks DCCC), especially as they start to understand voters in their (mostly Trump-won) districts may feel a bigger GOP majority is more effective at neutralizing Gaetz et. al than a narrow Dem majority that empowers AOC and Omar.

With those caveats, this makes public alignment between the centrist wing and the CPC.

# ? Oct 3, 2023 16:35

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > USCE 2023: Please let them shove a camera up your butt

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