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Kyrosiris posted:I'd imagine they'd probably start off not wanting to piss said possible-demon-from-hell off? Which, dunno about you, but I would be by an obvious "we have room but not for you" attitude. Yeah I don't think even in this desperate framing of a literal know nothing potato turned rural innkeeper makes sense because if you think that tiefling you met is a literal honest to God devil, do you think they're gonna take impolite no as an answer? I mean I'd honestly be impressed by the person who's ignorance and racism overrides their fear of this thing eating their soul if they displeased it. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Oct 2, 2023 |
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Oct 2, 2023 23:31
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YggdrasilTM posted:If It's a general behaviour of the population, sure. If it's just some individuals, why? It IS within the range of possible reactions. If I go in an elven city and some innkeepers are racist against my human PC and refuse to let me sleep in their inn, for example, the GM should have made clear in session zero? Because people being racist/sexist/etc against you still feels lovely, even if objectively you know this is just a particularly bad outlier. Even if you don't do full lines/veils with it, you should still know your players well enough that you're confident that the way you're having that innkeeper be racist is going to be a character moment and not just something that made the rest of your game night really awkward.
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Oct 2, 2023 23:31
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It's funny because my GM that's doing Abom Vaults with aforementioned pixie and her crew said a similar thing about "people may be curious or hostile because y'all are Weird™" and the worst we've got has been the surly old sheriff being more hostile when we strolled in looking for work and asking if I was "the end of the freak circus" or not as I was leaving.  I guess Otari's close enough to Absalom that it's not a total hick backwater though. 
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Oct 2, 2023 23:36
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Again, there's no need to make up new hypotheticals on when it's cool to have racism in the game when we're talking about the specific example posted up thread where this is not the case at all. And like, nobody said that fiction or RPGs should never depict racism or have racism as a setting element, just that you shouldn't tell a player that their character "won't face unpleasant treatment" while turning around and cackling "oh so you want to be a special snowflake? That means I get to be racist.  Enjoy being special now."
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Oct 2, 2023 23:39
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Kyrosiris posted:I'd imagine they'd probably start off not wanting to piss said possible-demon-from-hell off? Which, dunno about you, but I would be by an obvious "we have room but not for you" attitude. I mean that's the sort of "we don't serve your kind" stuff I called out as being obviously crass. That's not a reaction from someone fearful, that's a reaction from someone hateful who wants to leverage a perceived power over someone else. It's also just really overt to the point of not actually being that realistic. Even racist dicks in the modern day would just lie and say that they're full up.
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Oct 3, 2023 00:03
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Impermanent posted:Baldur's gate 3 is making a killing right now precisely because it understands that "campy bisexual elf vampire with trauma" is the minimum of fantasy nonsense a player wants to have going on with their character. Though the writing does kind of have the same problem in reverse regarding playable versus non-playable "monstrous" races: the former (most notably tieflings) count as people and so killing them is bad, but the player is led to massacre communities of the latter unless they choose a textually evil alternate path.
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Oct 3, 2023 00:33
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Ok, well, the histrionics have started. See ya. You're the clown having a meltdown about a completely imagined issue and we're the histrionic ones? gently caress outta here, dude. gtrmp posted:Though the writing does kind of have the same problem in reverse regarding playable versus non-playable "monstrous" races: the former (most notably tieflings) count as people and so killing them is bad, but the player is led to massacre communities of the latter unless they choose a textually evil alternate path. To be fair, the goblins in the camp all revel in murder and just generally being total bastards to everyone else. You're not going and stomping a goblin settlement with women and children into the dirt--the goblins you fight are a roving warband. You can also kill their leaders and leave the rest alone. Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Oct 3, 2023 |
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Oct 3, 2023 00:47
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Dick Burglar posted:You're the clown having a meltdown about a completely imagined issue and we're the histrionic ones? gently caress outta here, dude. Yeah you can actually end things on relatively fine terms with some of the goblins and in fact, spare the lives of some of them later when you're given control over their fate from another group of lovely rear end in a top hat leaders they fall under.
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Oct 3, 2023 01:18
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mycot posted:But what everyone is leaving out is that in the original story the GM DID let the player play that character, he just made every NPC racist. That's why it feels like someone trying to mete a "clever" punishment for the crime of trying to be special. If you don't want someone to play something other than human or pointy-ear human, just veto the character. This is quite literally the reason the tags work like they do! Rare and uncommon things are literally rare and uncommon in golarion, but are generally also tagged that way for either access reasons, less balancing passes on the content, severe story implications, or tendency to short-circuit challenges. In golarion proper there’s speciesism and xenophobia and bigotry, and some people would absolutely be lovely, though usually only ever in worldbuilding because it’s kinda not great to stick in an AP It’s up to the GM to decide if they want to run that version of the world though, and whether individual NPCs will range from hateful to fearful to curious, and if they do, to tell their players that they’re doing so explicitly, not by springing being fantasy rosa parks on the dude who just wants to play a robot and didn’t realize he was gonna be reenacting the civil rights movement Jen X fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Oct 3, 2023 |
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Oct 3, 2023 02:33
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The bit in the Season of Ghosts player's guide where you're rewarded for being bickering siblings with another PC by getting a +1 save bonus whenever they fail a save is very good
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Oct 3, 2023 04:56
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Jen X posted:This is quite literally the reason the tags work like they do! Rare and uncommon things are literally rare and uncommon in golarion, but are generally also tagged that way for either access reasons, less balancing passes on the content, severe story implications, or tendency to short-circuit challenges. I know Golarion's been through a lot of revisions (ex, IIRC flat out removing slavery as a concept recently.) I wonder how much of that bigotry is from the grungier 1E days and how much is freshly produced for 2E.
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Oct 3, 2023 05:27
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If they didn't want me to commit mass murder they should have used milestone leveling. I feel like my reasoning is more than morally sound. But yeah. Man I might try running Season of ghosts it seems pretty cool.
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Oct 3, 2023 05:37
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YggdrasilTM posted:If It's a general behaviour of the population, sure. If it's just some individuals, why? It IS within the range of possible reactions. If I go in an elven city and some innkeepers are racist against my human PC and refuse to let me sleep in their inn, for example, the GM should have made clear in session zero? uhh I mean we had someone in this thread already express it was a hard line for them and it's... something people deal with in real life and maybe don't want intruding on their fantasy time. So yes, I think it's maybe worth talking about, even if you're not planning to use it often.
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Oct 3, 2023 06:32
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Kyrosiris posted:It's funny because my GM that's doing Abom Vaults with aforementioned pixie and her crew said a similar thing about "people may be curious or hostile because y'all are Weird™" and the worst we've got has been the surly old sheriff being more hostile when we strolled in looking for work and asking if I was "the end of the freak circus" or not as I was leaving. Otari is very specifically described as a town where Pathfinders go to retire in AV which would imply to me that a number of locals aren't going to be too phased seeing a merry band of misfits stroll into town, even if it's not an everyday occurrence for them. Chevy Slyme posted:The beginning of Sky King's Tomb has the characters doing level 1 dipshit odd jobs around town, and one of them is dealing with a Knight of Lastwall who happens to be a half orc, and the intended resolution is that you overcome dwarven racism and help this noble half orc recruit some strong warriors to go off and fight tar baphon. We just did this quest the other day and we didn't get the element of dwarven racism at all, our GM played the hostility off as people finding the Knights of Lastwall annoying and preachy... YggdrasilTM posted:If It's a general behaviour of the population, sure. If it's just some individuals, why? It IS within the range of possible reactions. If I go in an elven city and some innkeepers are racist against my human PC and refuse to let me sleep in their inn, for example, the GM should have made clear in session zero? I think it's something you should discuss with your players beforehand, yeah. Racism and discrimination are things people deal with on a daily basis and would sometimes rather catch a break from if they're just trying to play a fun game, but everyone's limits and comfort zones are different in that regard. Clerical Terrors fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Oct 3, 2023 |
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Oct 3, 2023 08:18
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sugar free jazz posted:the choice of picking an ancestry for non mechanical reasons disgusts me. I pick my ancestries/heritages primarily based on my need to have darkvision on all of my PCs. Are you proud of me, dungeon daddy.
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Oct 3, 2023 08:38
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I hate darkvision so much on PC's. Any ancestry that see's the sun ever shouldn't have anything above low-light vision. Going to the surface should just burn anyone's eyes with darkvision. I kind of want to remove it from my games but that's just a blatant weakening of a bunch of ancestries in the game and I wouldn't know how to compensate for it.
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Oct 3, 2023 13:38
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I have never seen such hate for darkvision before in my life.
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Oct 3, 2023 13:43
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It's the worst, it just completely destroys the fantasy of a dark and dangerous dungeon to me. Also, it usually ends up with the party being like 4/5 darkvision and one human without it so I just end up giving the human darkvision goggles because the rest of the party doesn't care about lighting. I did make darkvision black and white all the time, even in full light so I'm going to do a bunch of stuff with color illusions I think.
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Oct 3, 2023 13:50
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gurragadon posted:I hate darkvision so much on PC's. Any ancestry that see's the sun ever shouldn't have anything above low-light vision. Going to the surface should just burn anyone's eyes with darkvision. I kind of want to remove it from my games but that's just a blatant weakening of a bunch of ancestries in the game and I wouldn't know how to compensate for it. I doubt whatever you'd give them as compensation for losing darkvision would break your game.
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Oct 3, 2023 13:53
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gurragadon posted:It's the worst, it just completely destroys the fantasy of a dark and dangerous dungeon to me. Also, it usually ends up with the party being like 4/5 darkvision and one human without it so I just end up giving the human darkvision goggles because the rest of the party doesn't care about lighting. You know there's other 'dungeons' then a dark cave right?
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Oct 3, 2023 14:01
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gurragadon posted:I hate darkvision so much on PC's. Any ancestry that see's the sun ever shouldn't have anything above low-light vision. Going to the surface should just burn anyone's eyes with darkvision. I kind of want to remove it from my games but that's just a blatant weakening of a bunch of ancestries in the game and I wouldn't know how to compensate for it.  ok then
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Oct 3, 2023 14:12
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:You know there's other 'dungeons' then a dark cave right? Yes, but I'm not sure why it matters. I like to run mega dungeons that are dark and darkvision trivializes the darkness. Any surface ancestry, or ancestry that spends time on the surface would use torches and magical light underground for there buildings that weren't abandoned. SilverMike posted:I doubt whatever you'd give them as compensation for losing darkvision would break your game. I'm less worried about it being too strong than being too weak so people wouldn't want to pick that ancestry anymore. I was thinking giving natural ambition to every ancestry with darkvision but I'm not sure. It seems like that would just make everything to similar.
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Oct 3, 2023 14:15
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gurragadon posted:I hate darkvision so much on PC's. Any ancestry that see's the sun ever shouldn't have anything above low-light vision. Going to the surface should just burn anyone's eyes with darkvision. I kind of want to remove it from my games but that's just a blatant weakening of a bunch of ancestries in the game and I wouldn't know how to compensate for it.
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Oct 3, 2023 14:16
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I agree that darkvision can be a PITA if you have a party split between havers and not-havers. But yeah, not every dungeon needs to be dark. Darkness is a "sometimes food."
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Oct 3, 2023 14:18
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Froghammer posted:Run your party through a dungeon filled with luminescent crystals that radiate light not visible on humanity's spectrum. Mechanically, it's inverse darkness. Regular vision can see fine ("it's just glowing crystals, what's the problem"). Low-light vision treats everything as dim light, as the glint from the crystals makes everything beyond 30 feet blinding. Darkvision is completely overwhelmed; PCs will need portable shade or sunglasses to see anything at all, and even that will only let them see little beyond their own hands and feet. Hmmm. This would be a fun mechanic for like a dungeon or area made by a group of humans who loving hated elves or some other creature/ancestry with dark/low light vision. I am going to steal the poo poo out of this. Usually to gently caress with darkvision in the rare rare time when I want to have stuff be actually dark I just make the darkness generated by a macguffin of magical darkness. Once they find what is generating it in the area it can be turned off.
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Oct 3, 2023 14:39
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Doing away with darkvision so the npcs can't see the players and be racist to them.
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Oct 3, 2023 14:44
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Dexo posted:Hmmm. This would be a fun mechanic for like a dungeon or area made by a group of humans who loving hated elves or some other creature/ancestry with dark/low light vision. A weirdo inverse gravity dungeon where everyone can fly except for the flying PCs (who now have to walk) feels extremely bad for the person who built their character to be able to fly, because they wanted to be able to fly.
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Oct 3, 2023 14:47
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Froghammer posted:It's neat trick to pull Exactly Once in a campaign. Darkvision's an edge case because it's usually tacked on for free rather than something the PCs seek out, but in general players that take options that let them be good at something expect to be rewarded for being good at said things. Pulling a "SURPRISE everyone who's good at something is now bad at it and vice versa" gets old very, very quickly. oh obviously it's not an every time thing, I just actually like the mechanic, and think it could be the basis of some interesting narrative/world storytelling for a specific place. Like every dungeon I make doesn't have a magical darkness macguffin. Lamuella posted:Doing away with darkvision so the npcs can't see the players and be racist to them. But but I really really don't see color, everything is greyscale down here 
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Oct 3, 2023 14:55
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Froghammer posted:Run your party through a dungeon filled with luminescent crystals that radiate light not visible on humanity's spectrum. Mechanically, it's inverse darkness. Regular vision can see fine ("it's just glowing crystals, what's the problem"). Low-light vision treats everything as dim light, as the glint from the crystals makes everything beyond 30 feet blinding. Darkvision is completely overwhelmed; PCs will need portable shade or sunglasses to see anything at all, and even that will only let them see little beyond their own hands and feet. I'm gonna use this at some point, maybe something with the first world and a bunch of weird rooms with a gimmick involving light in them. It would be tough with something like a lurker in light. I need to get vision tricks for regular, low light and darkvision so nobody feels like they are being singled out. I was thinking about a chimerical color test for darkvision as well and hand out a greyscale handout to my darkvision characters and a full color one to the other players. Edit: I was thinking about asking which color was the "darker" color for regular vision people. It can be hard to tell if you see in color but converted to greyscale it's easy to see which is darker.
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Oct 3, 2023 15:09
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AV has a section or two that is actually significantly easier if the party has a light source. Those fights were close enough that if my party all had darkvision I'm pretty sure they'd be dead. I really like how it messes with the assumption that everyone needs darkvision during a dungeon crawl.
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Oct 3, 2023 15:43
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KPC_Mammon posted:AV has a section or two that is actually significantly easier if the party has a light source. Those fights were close enough that if my party all had darkvision I'm pretty sure they'd be dead. I really like how it messes with the assumption that everyone needs darkvision during a dungeon crawl.
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Oct 3, 2023 16:36
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KPC_Mammon posted:AV has a section or two that is actually significantly easier if the party has a light source. Those fights were close enough that if my party all had darkvision I'm pretty sure they'd be dead. I really like how it messes with the assumption that everyone needs darkvision during a dungeon crawl. The Sky King’s Tomb Player’s Guide specifically says that you should probably have a light source when adventuring in the Darklands, even if the whole party has darkvision.
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Oct 3, 2023 17:31
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I have a very special weapon that casts Final Fantasy style Darkness on targets. Literally bubbles of magical dark on their eyes. Alas, everything I've applied this to successfully to date has darkvision.
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Oct 3, 2023 17:40
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Clerical Terrors posted:I pick my ancestries/heritages primarily based on my need to have darkvision on all of my PCs. Are you proud of me, dungeon daddy. 
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Oct 3, 2023 17:52
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Froghammer posted:gently caress that Voidglutton. That guy's an rear end in a top hat. We just hit that guy last session, and had to end the night with the encounter unresolved. I'm not sure our group has any way to deal with at-will heightened darkness.
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Oct 3, 2023 19:28
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gurragadon posted:I hate darkvision so much on PC's. Any ancestry that see's the sun ever shouldn't have anything above low-light vision. Going to the surface should just burn anyone's eyes with darkvision. I kind of want to remove it from my games but that's just a blatant weakening of a bunch of ancestries in the game and I wouldn't know how to compensate for it. I sympathize with this position
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Oct 3, 2023 19:44
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Enos Cabell posted:We just hit that guy last session, and had to end the night with the encounter unresolved. I'm not sure our group has any way to deal with at-will heightened darkness. You absolutely do. It is called running the gently caress away and not coming back until you have a higher level light spell. Edit: Wrin can sell a scroll of level 5 light for 150 gold if you don't want to wait. Edit 2: I was actually thinking of enemies with light blindness originally. Getting one round of blind and the entire encounter dazzled is a huge boon. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Oct 3, 2023 |
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Oct 3, 2023 19:55
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KPC_Mammon posted:You absolutely do. It is called running the gently caress away and not coming back until you have a higher level light spell. That seems to be the group consensus at this point.
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Oct 3, 2023 20:04
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running away is a good way to deal with things, unironically
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Oct 3, 2023 20:31
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Yeah in my AV campaign we’ve run away multiple times in a night. Literally leave Otari at like 7am game-time back at 9am to rest up and I imagine it’s real embarrassing for the “heroes”. Haven’t ran into the spoiler thing yet though I don’t think but we got hella hosed by splitting blob monsters at the bottom of a trash chute or something since we had no bludgeoning damage except for punching and no aoe spells. And of course they’re immune to rogue anything. No wonder Otari died.
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Oct 3, 2023 20:39
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