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Unit Spotlight: Thor Overview:
A nice, beefy tank to help keep the more fragile Goliaths and Science Vessels safe, the Thor actually has a good number of changes from the Odin instead of just being a weaker version of it. It has a slightly higher base damage on its ground attack, albeit with a much longer cooldown and no anti-Structure bonus, and the air attack trades out the anti-Armored for anti-Light and splash damage. That might not seem like much, but the 10 range (that's more than an upgraded Goliath!) it has means it can take a sizable bite out of a swarm of Mutalisks before they can get into range. Abilities  250mm Strike Cannons
Being a direct target attack means this falls into the same pitfalls of the Spectre and the Firebat, where whatever you target is probably going to die before the attack actually manages to land. 330mm Barrage Cannons
This is a good deal better. The 2 second delay still makes it a bit awkward to use, but you can pre-cast it directly in front of your army at the start of a fight and watch the enemy charge in and get vaporized. Outside of campaign exclusive enemies like the Hybrids, no ground enemy has more than 500 health. Armory Upgrades  330mm Barrage Cannon
 Immortality Protocol
A fun way to deal with attrition. It's not that much cheaper than just making a new Thor, minerals are rarely your resource bottleneck after all, but rebuilding takes just 1/5 the time and saves your new Thor the lengthy walk from your Factory all the way to where your army is. The Wreckage being destroyable isn't a big factor in practice, as whatever enemies are still left will aggro on all your surviving (and attacking) units instead. They only time they'll be at risk is if there's a lot of splash damage going around or you're forced to retreat. Field Manual Artwork  
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Oct 3, 2023 14:21
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How's the build time comparison between Thors and Goliaths? I could definitely see that being a large argument to throwing some Thors into a mechball if it's around 1.3x the Goliath build time, so that in a resource-rich section of the game, you'd be outputting 3 Thors instead of 4 Goliaths. They also definitely seem designed to handle late-game zerg (powerful cannons for ultralisks, splash for muta swarms), which at least tracks with the stated purpose of construction. "I win." makes me wonder if the margin notes are being written by a Ghost. Maybe even Nova?
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Oct 3, 2023 16:02
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Felinoid posted:How's the build time comparison between Thors and Goliaths? I could definitely see that being a large argument to throwing some Thors into a mechball if it's around 1.3x the Goliath build time, so that in a resource-rich section of the game, you'd be outputting 3 Thors instead of 4 Goliaths. They also definitely seem designed to handle late-game zerg (powerful cannons for ultralisks, splash for muta swarms), which at least tracks with the stated purpose of construction. Goliaths are 40 seconds, Thors are 60. Felinoid posted:"I win." makes me wonder if the margin notes are being written by a Ghost. Maybe even Nova?     Nah, a lot of the other notes imply that Margin Guy is a Marine. Who knows, maybe a writer at Blizz hosed up.
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Oct 3, 2023 16:11
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Hmm. Maybe they're just declaring that they win the imaginary argument. Wouldn't put it past marines to have self-esteem issues that would need that.
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Oct 3, 2023 16:18
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I'm pleasantly surprised by the Co-op mode. It actually lets you have some of the fun campaign units in a more general format, and makes Firebats not as bad. Not really relevant to the LP, but at someone who never tried it before it's nice to see. Jim just needs to keep his opinions about acceptable losses to himself. So what if I'm treating marines like zerglings and sending them to their deaths in scores? "We lost a lot of good people there." Mind your business Jimmy.
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Oct 6, 2023 16:58
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Warmachine posted:Jim just needs to keep his opinions about acceptable losses to himself. So what if I'm treating marines like zerglings and sending them to their deaths in scores? "We lost a lot of good people there." Mind your business Jimmy. Starcraft makes a point of arguing that the typical Marine is not, in fact, a good person! So sending them carelessly to their deaths in droves is 👍 as far as we're supposed to be concerned.
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Oct 6, 2023 22:25
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Add me to the list of people going back and playing SC2 due to the LP. I started with Heart of the Swarm since I beat WoL and HotS way back. I can remember the big plot points coming up for WoL, but not HotS 1) I was never good at RTS's and time has not made this better 2) Oh my god, Kerrigan's writing, oh God I forgot it was this bad holy poo poo
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Oct 6, 2023 22:28
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Dr_Gee posted:Add me to the list of people going back and playing SC2 due to the LP. I started with Heart of the Swarm since I beat WoL and HotS way back. I can remember the big plot points coming up for WoL, but not HotS Don’t worry, it gets worse.
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Oct 6, 2023 22:30
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I played Wings but haven't touched the other two; if there are follow-up LP threads for the other parts of SC2 I dread to see what happens to the writing.
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Oct 6, 2023 23:24
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aniviron posted:I played Wings but haven't touched the other two; if there are follow-up LP threads for the other parts of SC2 I dread to see what happens to the writing. 
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Oct 6, 2023 23:29
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aniviron posted:I played Wings but haven't touched the other two; if there are follow-up LP threads for the other parts of SC2 I dread to see what happens to the writing. I've got good news and bad news. The good news is that eventually the game ends.
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Oct 7, 2023 01:12
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aniviron posted:I played Wings but haven't touched the other two; if there are follow-up LP threads for the other parts of SC2 I dread to see what happens to the writing. Oh trust me, I wouldn't be subjecting all of you to Prophecy Time if I wasn't planning on covering everything.
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Oct 7, 2023 03:05
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The majority of Legacy is better than Heart, though that’s not saying much. But then lol there’s the epilogue
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Oct 7, 2023 03:11
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aniviron posted:I played Wings but haven't touched the other two; if there are follow-up LP threads for the other parts of SC2 I dread to see what happens to the writing. But yes, the writing is a loving disaster area.
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Oct 7, 2023 03:32
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Like I love to say: SC2 is somehow the trilogy that flubbed the ending four times
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Oct 7, 2023 03:37
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Rebellion 5: Piercing the Shroud Video: Piercing the Shroud      Let's hope so. We'd look pretty silly comin' all this way for a few tons of Beryllium.  Sounds fun.         Jim's taking to the field for the first time since The Outlaws, and he's gotten a decent boost in both health (250 to 350) and damage (12 to 16).  He's also packing a new ability.  It's just a bomb used to open doors.     There's an open door right there.  Which swiftly closes, forcing me to use the computer.  7 Marines, 3 Firebats, and 6 turrets. Ain't no way I'm cracking that with what few forces I have.  Thankfully, I don't have to.   This mission has a few of these types of choices, letting you choose what threats to take out early while you handle what's left. Here, I can pick between dealing with Firebats or Marines. In theory, this asks the player if they want to deal with tanky anti-Light units with my small force of Light units or a larger number of weaker Marines that I can chip down.  In practice, Firebats are dogshit and pose no threat.  And since all the enemies are already aggroed on the turrets, I can just waltz in and clean up with no issues.    A cutscene starts up just as a Marine starts shooting this thing.   I don't know. But I'm real curious as to what they're doing inside a Dominion lab.And this mission is... a second introduction to the Hybrid? I guess this is to show we're really close to the Prophecy Doomsday, since the Hybrid are already being mass produced?   And then Raynor actually gets trapped.   An endless stream of zerg start to pour out of this enclosure, forcing you to swap between shooting it and shooting the Zerglings. However, you can also use a Breaching Charge to instantly take it out, and I ordered Raynor to do that just before the cutscene started.  So I deal with all of four Zerglings before the bomb explodes.  Also there's this trapped Ultralisk that's flagged as hostile.  Even stranger is that the Ultralisk bursts into a few Broodlings on death.   Then one more Breaching Charge to open the way.  Hey look, a glowy thing!   The second twist to this mission is that there are weapon pickups scattered across the map for Jim to use. They have limited uses, so I'll have to make them count.  Just ahead is a perfect demonstration.    There's a scripting mistake here. Dspite being a Marauder, he's using a Firebat portrait.  With 350 health backed by 2 armor and Medic support, Raynor is a very good tank.  And now for some more camera fun.  Here's a tougher one. Unlike the turrets, whoever I unleash is hostile to everyone. Can 5 Ultralisks shred this group? Yes, obviously. Then I have to deal with all the Ultralisks that survived, which would honestly be harder than fighting these guys normally.  So I pick the Zealots instead.   See? Just four Zealots left.  Although I am starting to run low on Marines.     This cage won't spawn any more enemies.  But it will give up the first bonus once it's destroyed.  And that makes 25!   Just ahead is a Restoration Charge. Grabbing it will give a full health and energy boost to all nearby friendlies. I don't need it, considering my Medics are chugging along just fine, but I guess this is here as a failsafe in case you lost them both and Raynor's starting to get a bit dinged up.  There's also another door.  With a new toy!   150 damage a shot is spicy, and the weapons have no cooldown so if I don't mind burning multiple charges I can just spam these to kill a high threat target.  The way forward is down south.  Down the ramp is a landed Viking.  Or rather, their Merc version, the Hel's Angel.  Despite the tooltip saying 150 damage, it instantly killed the Angel.  There are also some Siege Tanks here, but they aren't cruel enough to actually siege up.  Two Plasma shots and another console.  The idea behind this one is to turn on this warbot, letting you choose between anti-Light, anti-Armored, or all-rounder loadouts to push through the next section.  However, it has a timed life and I have a better use for it up ahead.  So time to fight through a huge gauntlet with only four guys!  Three guys!  Two guys!   One guy!  In all seriousness this isn't that bad. Jim has enough natural bulk to take a lot of punishment, so as long as I wait between fights and heal up I'm still fine. Seriously, the dude is only 50 HP below a Thor and has one more base armor. The man's a beast.  Two more grenades.  And speak of the devil, a Thor.  Okay the Plasma Gun must have some kind of unlisted bonus vs Mechanical, because it two shot that Thor.  And then one last Hammer Security.    You got it, sir. I only have one dropship available. What do you need?And how's that for timing, some reinforcements! Of the four choices available, 8 Marines is best if you're down to just Jim and the Medics (like me!), 3 Marauders gives you some Armored bulk to help deal with all the Ghosts in the next room if you've taken minimal losses, 4 Firebats are useless (doubly so considering there's a Brutalisk in the room), and 3 Marine/3 Medic is if you've lost everything and Jim barely managed to make it this far on his own.  I go for the Marines.  I take one of them and move up here a bit.  Because just like Diablo back in The Devil's Playground, there's another cross-IP cameo this way.  A tiny lil Murloc Marine.  Okay, back to business.  It's very important to keep Jim in front here. Ghosts can three tap Marines thanks to their anti-Light bonus.  But beyond that I'm just clearing out the room before I crack open that Brutalisk.  Plus there's 2 shots of Plasma.  And a relic.  Room secured and two grenades obtained, I send someone back for that unused console.   This would normally play a few lines about how the area is packed with enemies, but... yeah.  I go for the Anti-Armor missiles.  The A.R.E.S. has a sizable 1500 life, but only lasts for a measly 75 seconds before dying.  There's no way I'd be able to fight through all those enemies and clear this room in that amount of time, but pre-clearing everything lets me zoom it right up to the Brutalisk.    In a straight fight, your micro has to be on point to kill it with minimal losses. It'll kill a Marine in one hit, and a Marauder will barely survive thanks to their innate 1 armor.  But the anti-Armored A.R.E.S. can solo it, and once they start fighting the Marines can speed up the process without pulling aggro.  There was another locked door here, but I blew it while getting the A.R.E.S. so I can use it as a tank for a few seconds.   But it's not that important. All that's in here are a few Marines and Hammer Securities.  Also a Hybrid just chilling in a bubble.  I'm sure blowing up the one thing keeping the place running will go just fine. This is a plan without a flaw nor any possibility of error!     Oh look.   A flaw.      Now I have to escape the facility, while also finding two more relics. There's also a fun little detail in that Raynor actually turns his suit lights on, which will light up a small area in front of him.  Also another 2 Plasma rounds have materialized.  Now that the place is falling apart, all the specimens are running loose.  That includes the protoss. Don't ask why Jim, known ally of the protoss, doesn't make any remarks on them. They're probably all Tal'darim or some poo poo.  There's one last toy for the escape sequence.   The Chrono Rift is pretty much an 'in case of Hybrid, haul rear end' button.   And just a bit further...  The Hybrid shows up.  Matt isn't kidding. Even though it's listed as having 1600 health, the Hybrid is flagged to take no damage from all sources. If it wasn't for that, it'd be really easy to kill. Between all the grenades and plasma shots the mission gives you it wouldn't be too hard to just spam it to death. What's really weird is that this particular Hybrid is a Detector, despite it being impossible to bring cloaked units on this mission. Meanwhile the hordes of Hybrid from In Utter Darkness couldn't do jack to a handful of Dark Templar.  Ah hell, that debris won't hold it for long. Keep moving! Go! GO!Once the Hybrid breaks through that rubble it will beeline right to me, so I'm now on the clock.  There's another A.R.E.S. sitting around.  Thankfully you don't have to hit a button for this one. It activates the moment someone walks over it.  Plasma instantly destroys rubble, making it quick to grab that Chrono Rift ammo.  The bot lasts for a decent while.    There's the third relic.   You can see the Hybrid start to get close. This mission gives a much stronger introduction to the Hybrids compared to the Prophecy missions, honestly. An unstoppable, unkillable horror that can only be slightly inconvenienced at best. A hell of a lot better than "Come, my SLAVES. The time has come to give me your STRENGTH" on loop for 20 minutes.  More Rift ammo.    The Chrono Rift slows the Hybrid down to a crawl the moment it steps inside, giving me a bit of breathing room.   ...ah hell I overshot the relic.   You're supposed to go through that rubble and fight through those Zealots to reach the ramp.  Later, nerd!   And now I have some breathing room.  Up ahead are a lot of these Pygalisk Cocoons. What's a Pygalisk?  A tiny Ultralisk made by the Dominion.  Also there's an actual Ultra just to spook you.  I do something really funny here.  The Hybrid bursts out of nowhere for one last panicked sprint to the exit, unleashing an AoE slow to make it worse. There's just one problem.  The Hybrid attacks so slowly that my Medics can heal off every hit. By putting both Medics here on Hold Position I've effectively stopped the Hybrid cold until they run out of energy.    The loss of healing doesn't matter, as this is the last fight. Also, this Marine here? This is the last Terran enemy we'll be seeing in Wings. Everything from here on out is purely TvZ and TvP.  And here's my way out.  A moment of silence for these brave Medics that gave their lives so we could escape.   And then the Hybrid loses interest and walks away, leaving them stranded on a destroyed research base crawling with unleashed test subjects. I'm the good guy!     Count to Three, No More, No Less - Kill 40 enemy units with weapon pickups in the "Piercing the Shroud" mission on Normal difficulty. BisbyWorl fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Feb 5, 2024 |
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Oct 7, 2023 03:45
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I've never seen this mission, but it feels narratively...weird. Did they expect you to not have pondered the And those are likely many players only exposure to the hybrids! But I guess that's what makes Wings of Liberty (and SC2 just in general) so frustrating: it's often easy to see how they could have done so much better. And then you watch them choose, ad nauseam, to do worse.
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Oct 7, 2023 05:35
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It's very weird, yes. Introducing the hybrids in WoL is a good idea -- they only were mentioned in the secret mission of SC1, and SC2 is supposed to be the payoff of that plot hook (among others), so you need a way to introduce them before they become major plot elements and show up frequently. But even if this wasn't a secret mission that you have to go out of your way to find, this mission will be late in the campaign even if you beeline for it. Horner's chain doesn't even start to show up until you've completed six or seven missions, and is itself four missions long. So at soonest, you'll find this ten or eleven missions in, which is WELL after the "timer" that unlocks The Dig, which unlocks Pondering, which has absolutely no restrictions on how fast you can bullrush through it. And even then, Maar shows up at Pondering 2, so even restricting the pace of Pondering wouldn't help much at all. Honestly? It feels like the Protoss missions were supposed to come AFTER Piercing the Shroud. The Dig isn't a very dramatic or striking mission at all, the only real connection it has to Zeratul's whole deal is the existence of the Xel'naga, which, whatever, they're not the focus of it, the focus of it is Siege Tanks and Laser Drill. But Piercing the Shroud is built 100% around the Hybrid, and is a very striking set piece mission, ideal for making a memorable introduction -- and the Hybrid is a direct connection, plotwise, to what Zeratul is doing (regardless of whether that was a good idea). Having Zeratul show up when Raynor is getting blasted drunk trying to figure out what the deal was with the Hybrid and providing him with an answer that comes with Consequences is much more narratively interesting than him showing up basically out of nowhere to throw the plot at our heads. Hell, even if you didn't change anything else about him, Maar as represented would be FAR more intimidating post-Piercing the Shroud because you've seen what a Hybrid can do (and because you could justify making him tougher but less frequent). Why is he talking but didn't talk to Raynor? Easy, Raynor's not a protoss, he's not psionic. And so on. It would make much more sense. But instead it's entirely plausible a player could never play Piercing the Shroud at all. It's very weird.
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Oct 7, 2023 06:14
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Fun Fact: Piercing the Shroud was originally not WoL's secret mission - all of the Pondering was. I have no idea why they were swapped, or why the narrative was completely unaltered after the swap, but if you put one in place of the other, suddenly the pacing of the story makes way more sense!
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Oct 7, 2023 07:48
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Kith posted:I have no idea why they were swapped My guess is because otherwise Zeratul, a fan favorite character, goes completely MIA for the entirety of Wings.
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Oct 7, 2023 08:06
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That, and there’s also the matter of putting Raynor’s primary reason for sparing Kerrigan behind a hidden mini campaign
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Oct 7, 2023 08:12
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the weapon/ability pick ups remind me of Dawn of War 2
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Oct 7, 2023 09:06
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My first time around, I didn't play this mission because I didn't find it. By the time I was playing Media Blitz I was kinda over the story and was just blitzing through.
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Oct 7, 2023 09:07
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I also don't quite get it. Is the idea that the Dominion stole some hybrids and were poking them with sticks to see what they were? Or that the Dominion were helping Duran make them? Or that there were two simultaneous war crime experiments going on?
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Oct 7, 2023 09:20
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I'm pretty sure the hybrids are being created here, with
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Oct 7, 2023 09:28
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Maybe they're creating hybrids while pretending it's research to fight them? But it's likely blizzard never put much thought into it themselves.
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Oct 7, 2023 09:41
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Regalingualius posted:That, and there’s also the matter of putting Raynor’s primary reason for sparing Kerrigan behind a hidden mini campaign The mini campaign is entirely optional - you can complete Wings of Liberty without Pondering at any point. The "canon" reason for Raynor sparing Kerrigan comes later.
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Oct 7, 2023 09:48
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I figure Narud/Duran or whoever is continuing the set up he had in Brood War's secret mission, where he siphoned off resources from both the UED and Kerrigan and then went awol. He took up a legitimate identity with enough sway to procure talent/resources but Mengsk/Dominion leadership probably has no idea he's even doing this. Probably scrubbed everything to result in an 'orphaned employee no one realizes has no supervisor anymore' kind of thing, with only some minor details missed. It's only because Raynor's poking everything no matter how small it gets found- and he had to physically go there. If Mengsk was curious, he'd ask an underling and they'd say "oh yeah there used to be something there but it got mothballed and folded into another project" because that's what the paperwork says happened. Big ol' Someone Else's Problem field. (haven't played SC2 so this is just a guess based on the LP so far) Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 10:00
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Didn't the notes they found in the science facility say it was getting blown up by Mensk?
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Oct 7, 2023 10:04
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Poil posted:Didn't the notes they found in the science facility say it was getting blown up by Mensk? 'terminate everyone who ever worked there', attributed to 'the Dominion' rather than any specific person so I still figure that's Duran (assuming he's still around, could be whoever) covering his tracks- either he just wants to doubly obscure it from the Dominion with a false kill-order so it looks like it's a dead end, or he got what he needed and is ready to move on. But it could be Mengsk/Dominion proper I guess- though yeah I figure they're working at the behest of Duran/whatever, it's just a question of how much they know. alternatively I am putting too much thought into something that did not get that much thought put into writing it
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Oct 7, 2023 10:26
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WoL in general has something that the other campaigns didn't continue with - optional missions. They're all over the campaign design. This one's the most obvious, being actively hidden (I didn't even know it existed!), but we've also seen a choice of two missions that you only play one of with the Nova/Tosh decision, and another one coming up later if we do eventually go there. And if is a key question too - you have to do a certain amount of missions before the end game, but not all of them, and only one chain of missions is actually required for it so any specific non-Tychus/Narud mission could be one you just never play in your game, and if you do it could be in almost any order. That's not great for storytelling! Almost none of the events that transpire in missions can affect the broader plot, and any sort of escalating threat can only exist within a single mission chain because that's the only time you can reliably say these missions will be played in order. It's not great for game design either since on top of making some awkward difficulty curves you're spending development time on more missions than a typical player is going to see. Maybe Blizzard was hoping to give this campaign some replayability, since on release this was going to be the entire single-player game for however long it took HotS to come out. The way you're locked into your unit upgrades and research choices supports that idea. But I don't think it really helped that much to extend the campaign's lifespan, it's a pretty satisfying length as it is - and it made the game much weaker in the process.
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Oct 7, 2023 12:54
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Kith posted:Fun Fact: Piercing the Shroud was originally not WoL's secret mission - all of the Pondering was. I vaguely remember from the time Actiblizz saying in an official way that the Zeratul mini campaign exists because otherwise it might have been quite a long time before you got to play as SC2 Protoss, due to the 'each campaign is a whole game with whole game production time' thing. Can't find my source. I figured it was Gamespot since they were my goto news site back then but it's not mentioned in their sc2 articles. Did I hallucinate it? Human memory is weird. I actually enjoy this mission, it's well thought out and has lots of interesting ways to tackle things in it. Too bad they couldn't use a psionic hybrid instead, though. Ultralisk with shields and psi-storm is right proper terror for an oldschool sc player. Also might have given some context to the chained ultras and the pygalisk. bladededge fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 13:06
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Tenebrais posted:Almost none of the events that transpire in missions can affect the broader plot, and any sort of escalating threat can only exist within a single mission chain because that's the only time you can reliably say these missions will be played in order. And even within mission chains any escalating threat has to exist in this nebulous realm where things are simultaneously in a bad state but also not so bad the player can't go off and do something else instead. See Mobius being under attack from the zerg since we were halfway through pondering the orb, and Haven being completely out of contact since Welcome to the Jungle.
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Oct 7, 2023 13:09
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Well it's not like they can get more out of contact. 
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Oct 7, 2023 13:36
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PurpleXVI posted:I also don't quite get it. Is the idea that the Dominion stole some hybrids and were poking them with sticks to see what they were? Or that the Dominion were helping Duran make them? Or that there were two simultaneous war crime experiments going on? Also, it's spoilers to describe in detail, but let's just say that as usual, the variable mission structure means that there's some information we could already have that helps answer your question.
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Oct 7, 2023 13:48
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gameplay-wise this mission was pretty neat, using RTS mechanics to make an FPS-style mission. i can see why it's just a hidden one-off, though, adding too many of these wouldn't gel well with the rest of the game design imo
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Oct 7, 2023 14:08
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bladededge posted:I vaguely remember from the time Actiblizz saying in an official way that the Zeratul mini campaign exists because otherwise it might have been quite a long time before you got to play as SC2 Protoss, due to the 'each campaign is a whole game with whole game production time' thing. Can't find my source. I figured it was Gamespot since they were my goto news site back then but it's not mentioned in their sc2 articles. Did I hallucinate it? Human memory is weird. I absolutely heard this justification as well, though of course it's been so long that I also can't recall exactly where. At the very least, it's a shared hallucination.
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Oct 7, 2023 14:45
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Mazerunner posted:the weapon/ability pick ups remind me of Dawn of War 2 Right down to grenades being op as hell, and they should absolutely be spammed.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:31
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Tenebrais posted:WoL in general has something that the other campaigns didn't continue with - optional missions. They're all over the campaign design. This one's the most obvious, being actively hidden (I didn't even know it existed!), but we've also seen a choice of two missions that you only play one of with the Nova/Tosh decision, and another one coming up later if we do eventually go there. And if is a key question too - you have to do a certain amount of missions before the end game, but not all of them, and only one chain of missions is actually required for it so any specific non-Tychus/Narud mission could be one you just never play in your game, and if you do it could be in almost any order. Blizz clearly realized that there was too much mission choice in WOL and it was hurting the story, because they cut it down in HotS and LotV. I don't recall LotV as well but in Heart, you get to choose between mission chains but once you're in a chain, you're going all the way through it before you get to switch to a new one.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:51
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That's how legacy does it, but with a lot fewer selections. (Of the 23 missions, the prologue and epilog take up 6, and then once you factor in the start and final planet chains for the remaining 17 there aren't a whole lot of mission chains left to pick the order of)
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Oct 7, 2023 18:40
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