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Also Hamas has gotten around 30-50% percent support in Gaza depending what time we talk about. They don’t represent them all and are even viewed with hostility by a huge number of Gaza residents. They just happen to rule the strip, too, so dem’s the bones. The average Palestinian probably isn’t happy catching JDAMs in return mail, but that fear benefits Hamas once again.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:05
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e: someone said it better upthread
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Oct 7, 2023 17:05
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SeANMcBAY posted:I’d be down for that. They’d probably let us stay under a more fair economic system and if not, being expelled to Italy wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world. Where exactly do you think Jews in Israel can escape to?
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Oct 7, 2023 17:05
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Morrow posted:
Not necessarily, but often in history it is. And that's when sentences are being meted out by international courts of justice, not desperate fighters on the verge of their people's eradication
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Oct 7, 2023 17:06
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Red and Black posted:It never stops. If your parents steal a house, and then they die and you inherit the house, you are still living on stolen land. Therefore the crime is not solely of the “original settlers”. For as long as the land is stolen and as long as there is an indigenous claim, your relation is a settler relation. The crime of settlement doesn’t so much pass onto you, as the original criminal passes away and a new criminal takes up the torch and continues the crime. Senjuro fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 17:06
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nivdes posted:Where exactly do you think Jews in Israel can escape to? apparently into a grave according to these fine folks cool stuff (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 7, 2023 17:07
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:So resistance is bad because of optics? Resistance isn't bad, I didn't say anything of the sort, but there's other ways to resist that don't involve ganking civilians and making it easy for the government to shut down any notion of a peaceful path forward. My people didn't make any gains for our sovereignty or rights by cutting the throat of every white boy in Saskatchewan or Manitoba who built a house on our ancestral lands, though we did engage with the Canadian military on several occasions. This indiscriminate slaughter Hamas has engaged in is just going to keep a cycle going, it isn't as though this is the beginning of the end for Israel or anything.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:08
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Main Paineframe posted:This doesn't make civilian deaths a good thing. They may be unavoidable, but that doesn't mean a bunch of internet war spectators should be going "gently caress yeah" about it. I am not saying that Israeli deaths are by and of themself a good thing. I am not cheering on Israeli death. I am saying the Palestinians have a right to resist Israeli occupation, and if settlers die in the process so be it. If settlers have a problem with that, they should evaluate their position as a colonizer and how they’ve made such confrontations inevitable
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Oct 7, 2023 17:09
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Willatron posted:I'm pretty sure Americans and Canadians posting in favour of Hamas killing Israeli settlers would change their tune pretty quick if Indigenous people on this continent decided to take the same tac in response to their presence here, but hey, it's much more fun to view faraway generational conflicts in black and white terms right? That's how you get some hot posting action. Hot take: Opechancanough did nothing wrong.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:09
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nivdes posted:Where exactly do you think Jews in Israel can escape to? You think people in this thread honestly care?
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Oct 7, 2023 17:09
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Israeli military should not retaliate and the Israeli government should invest in Gaza and West Bank and help elevate the quality of lives of those people. Should be like a Quebec/Canada type situation. Otherwise they’ll just keep killing each other.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:09
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nivdes posted:Where exactly do you think Jews in Israel can escape to? It would be as simple as granting palestinians full citizenship in israel. This single action would obviate any conflict tomorrow, but israel is unwilling to do it.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:10
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I will say that wanting to cheer on settler death feels extra pointless right now, seeing as the IDF are getting their asses handed to them so hard that Hamas might as well be hoovering up generals with a comically oversized vacuum labeled "TO THE STRIP" Like there's bigger fish to fry, much more repulsive fish.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:13
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Ironically, I think the closest parallel to this kind of event is actually the Warsaw Ghetto uprising of 1944: a small group of armed and coordinated fighters using whatever they can get their hands on within an open-air prison that is progressively being strangled to lash out in a fruitless but symbolic act of resistance.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:14
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Darth Walrus posted:Israel is something of a special case because its settler programme specifically violates the Geneva Convention by making civilians part of a military occupation of foreign soil, both by passively occupying it and by actively engaging in ethnic cleansing through bulldozing homes, contaminating or destroying wells, and burning farmland (and straight-up killing people, of course). They have directly degraded and devalued the definition of 'civilian' as per international law. Does this lead to horrible outcomes like massacres of noncombatants by the people under occupation and siege? Of course! That's why the Geneva Convention tells people not to do it! I am aware. I am not saying "Israel is blameless." There is a *big* difference between going "Israel set this situation up themselves and their government and leadership are the ones to blame" and cheering on the deaths of civilians and trying to claim they don't count as victims of a war. Red and Black posted:It never stops. If your parents steal a house, and then they die and you inherit the house, you are still living on stolen land. Therefore the crime is not solely of the “original settlers”. For as long as the land is stolen and as long as there is an indigenous claim, your relation is a settler relation. The crime of settlement doesn’t so much pass onto you, as the original criminal passes away and a new criminal takes up the torch and continues the crime. No. I am saying that even in a war you believe is 150% justified, you don't start suddenly celebrating the deaths of civilians and trying to come up with excuses for why they are subhuman scum who deserve to die for the crime of being born in the wrong place. Cugel the Clever posted:Maybe they should have fought for their government taking its boot from the colonized populations' necks? Or at minimum put a stop to the colonizing paramilitaries still tightening the noose? Why don't you? Like this isn't meant as a 'gotcha.' You live in America. You're currently looking to buy property in America. Why are you doing that and posting on an internet forum instead of fighting against your own government? Is it because you feel powerless and like your sacrifice of happiness and life won't be worthwhile?
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Oct 7, 2023 17:14
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:It would be as simple as granting palestinians full citizenship in israel. This single action would obviate any conflict tomorrow, but israel is unwilling to do it. Yeah. And ending the open air prison on Gaza. This would simultaneously destroy the support Hamas gets. And yet it’ll probably never happen.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:16
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Red and Black posted:I am not saying that Israeli deaths are by and of themself a good thing. I am not cheering on Israeli death. I am saying the Palestinians have a right to resist Israeli occupation, and if settlers die in the process so be it. If settlers have a problem with that, they should evaluate their position as a colonizer and how they’ve made such confrontations inevitable It is actually disturbing and disheartening to see posts like this one that sound exactly like the most callous religious Zionists but with the national identities swapped. "Well, that's how it is, maybe for us to reclaim all our stolen property, all the squatters and thieves have to die."
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Oct 7, 2023 17:18
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Red and Black posted:I am not saying that Israeli deaths are by and of themself a good thing. I am not cheering on Israeli death. I am saying the Palestinians have a right to resist Israeli occupation, and if settlers die in the process so be it. If settlers have a problem with that, they should evaluate their position as a colonizer and how they’ve made such confrontations inevitable Cool story. Have you ever wondered why people moved to Israel. Would you say a people that is constantly exiled and mass murdered would always be settlers and therefore would always be guilty of being settlers and therefore should always be expecting exile and mass murder.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:19
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This whole first nations analogy doesn't quite capture things. It's not like israel stopped settlements in 1947, they are doing it right now and Netanyahu made it very clear that it's going to accelerate. If I bulldozed someone's house on the Navajo reservation last week and made it clear i was doing their neighbors homes next week i'm pretty sure they would be reasonable to start shooting at me.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:20
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deathbysnusnu posted:This whole first nations analogy doesn't quite capture things. It's not like israel stopped settlements in 1947, they are doing it right now and Netanyahu made it very clear that it's going to accelerate. If I bulldozed someone's house on the Navajo reservation last week and made it clear i was doing their neighbors homes next week i'm pretty sure they would be reasonable to start shooting at me. And on top of that, someone in a Navajo reservation can legally move to and work in Albuquerque whenever they want to. It doesn't make the circumstances not lovely, but if native americans were not allowed to leave reservations or have contact with the outside world that the US didn't approve (as was the case not that long ago), it wouldn't be too surprising (or inappropriate) if a police station in the southwest blew up now and then. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 17:24
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Username is "Red and Black," posts are about how property rights are worth killing over. They are, of course. Every nation on earth recognizes that. The reason you don't think so is because you, personally, as a private citizen, are not permitted by law to do it. That does not mean violence is never employed to protect property. That means you can't. The police, the courts, the militaries of all nations, they are permitted to use violence to protect property. They are permitted to kill to protect property, provided, nominally, that certain preconditions are met. So you, private citizen, have to appeal to whatever civil organization holds the right to employ violence in order to get your property back. In the case of Palestine, as you must know, there is a problem. They have no recourse. There is no court, there is no police, there is no military that will protect their property in any real sense, much less employ violence to protect it. In fact, the agents of state violence do the exact opposite. Who then holds the right to use violence in defense of property? Do you think that, in the absence of a State (which, for our purposes here, is at best absent and at worst in active opposition), this right does not exist?
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Oct 7, 2023 17:30
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:And on top of that, someone in a Navajo reservation can legally move to and work in Albuquerque whenever they want to. It doesn't make the circumstances not lovely, but if native americans were not allowed to leave reservations or have contact with the outside world that the US didn't approve (as was the case not that long ago), it wouldn't be too surprising if a police station in the southwest blew up now and then. To complete the analogy, suppose that the US government resettled refugees in that development, and the refugees didn't have US citizenship and couldn't leave, and their kids couldn't either, and their grandkids, and then one day a bomb killed some of the refugees and a lot of their kids and grandkids. The average Israeli Jewish worker is stuck, like the average White American worker, with a violent bourgeois state that exploits them, exploits others horribly more, and violently punishes all resistance. Most lack any tools to escape or resist. That's the reality, and it means when they die they're casualties of the colonial process. Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Do you think that, in the absence of a State (which, for our purposes here, is at best absent and at worst in active opposition), this right does not exist? Yeah I don't think nations have rights at all. And if I thought national property claims justified violence, I'd be a Zionist. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 17:33
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Magnetic North posted:I have not followed this conflict terribly deeply (except watching a few recent YouTube videos about the history of failed peace process in the 90s), so forgive my ignorance: This has been described as an Air, Land and Sea campaign in a few places, and that surprises me because I had no idea that Palestine had any 'air' capabilities. Looking around, I found one reference to Paragliders, but that's it. Does Palestine have an air force? Or is that just describing the rockets? One of the reasons why people are so shocked at this is precisely because Palestine has absolutely zero support from the world while Israel gets billions of dollars of free military equipment and training every single year.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:34
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MeinPanzer posted:Ironically, I think the closest parallel to this kind of event is actually the Warsaw Ghetto uprising of 1944: a small group of armed and coordinated fighters using whatever they can get their hands on within an open-air prison that is progressively being strangled to lash out in a fruitless but symbolic act of resistance. It reminds me of one of the Chechen raids into Russia in the 90's. The only difference is that Basayev generally had some goal with the attack greater than just getting revenge, and I don't believe they were ever going door to door murdering civilians. The videos coming out of this are seriously terrible. When videos of Israeli soldiers killing Gazans during their invasion start coming out, people are gonna point to what Hamas is doing here as their reason for turning their backs on it. There's nothing to be celebrating about here.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:35
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fatherboxx posted:Putin is very careful vis-a-vis Israel because of Syria and he enjoys that Israel has been mostly fence-sitting during the war in Ukraine (only token diplomatic support + humanitarian assistance to Ukraine) so the idea that Hamas got support or coordination from Russia sounds completely unrealistic. What if Russia set this up to distract from the war in Ukraine? This Medvedev post is suspect as poo poo https://twitter.com/MedvedevRussiaE/status/1710587836922053105
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Oct 7, 2023 17:36
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Civilized Fishbot posted:To complete the analogy, suppose that the US government resettled refugees in that development, and the refugees didn't have US citizenship and couldn't leave, and their kids couldn't either, and their grandkids, and then one day a bomb killed some of the refugees and a lot of their kids and grandkids. Every second in this thread we move closer to a settler both sidesing wounded knee
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Oct 7, 2023 17:37
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Willo567 posted:What if Russia set this up to distract from the war in Ukraine? This Medvedev post is suspect as poo poo Israel doesn't need anything from the US in the same sense Ukraine does. They aren't lacking for ammo or whatever in a short term. pro starcraft loser fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 17:41
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Red and Black posted:Quick question, if take a house by violently expelling its current occupants, and those occupants try to retake the house and kill me in the process, are the former occupants guilty of war crimes? Did they kill a civilian? If someone carjacks you at gunpoint, does that mean that it's not murder if you break into that person's house ten years later and shoot them and their children in their sleep, as long as you're doing it so you can safely search the house for your keys afterward? The answer, by the way, is "No". Killing an unarmed person is murder. Even if that person has stolen your property in the past. Even if that person currently possesses your stolen property. Even if you're killing them to get your property back. Of course, the Palestinians don't exactly have many choices, since it's not like they can call the police or sue the thief in court. But even if they have literally no choice whatsoever to kill civilians, that doesn't make it morally justified to kill civilians. It may make it a sad necessity, but the emphasis should be on "sad". I don't love "we simply had no choice but to commit this atrocity", but it's clearly one hell of a lot better than "actually, it wasn't an atrocity at all, and here is my list of reasons why it was totally moral to kill these unarmed civilians". However, this is an absolutely unprecedented event in Israel/Palestine history, and I think it's silly that we're just using it as an opportunity to put together increasingly convoluted analogies to argue about whether committing war crimes is moral or necessary. AreWeDrunkYet posted:It would be as simple as granting palestinians full citizenship in israel. This single action would obviate any conflict tomorrow, but israel is unwilling to do it. In the short-term (by which I mean, maybe the next decade or two) the conflict would definitely continue. Granting full equal citizenship to Palestinians would be the only way to resolve things for future generations, but current generations would have quite a bit of violence left to do.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:42
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BUUNNI posted:One of the reasons why people are so shocked at this is precisely because Palestine has absolutely zero support from the world while Israel gets billions of dollars of free military equipment and training every single year. The secondary depressing thing outside of the loss of civilian life is this is all old hat and is going to play out exactly the same way it does every cycle of this..but..new for 2023: paragliders, and taking hostages..didn't see those coming e: the 2021 version of this was 11 days long zer0spunk fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 17:42
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If you believe prior residence claims go back indefinitely then the Palestinians are the settlers since they moved in after the Jews were expelled by the Romans.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:53
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Madkal posted:Cool story. Have you ever wondered why people moved to Israel. Would you say a people that is constantly exiled and mass murdered would always be settlers and therefore would always be guilty of being settlers and therefore should always be expecting exile and mass murder.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:55
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thekeeshman posted:If you believe prior residence claims go back indefinitely then the Palestinians are the settlers since they moved in after the Jews were expelled by the Romans. Yeah, that's a myth.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:57
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Cugel the Clever posted:Because the Israeli right-wing have waged a decades-long fear-mongering campaign, telling Jews that they'll never be safe and secure as members of multiethnic democracies and must retreat to a militant ethnonationalist Jewish state? I hate to tell ya, the population doesn't support the right-wing administration, and neither does the military..probably doesn't help when they've acitively been trying to do away with the current checks and balances on the train to authoritarian control people aren't into that so much it turns out, go figure
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Oct 7, 2023 17:57
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thekeeshman posted:If you believe prior residence claims go back indefinitely then the Palestinians are the settlers since they moved in after the Jews were expelled by the Romans. The current right here right now policy is expanded settlements indefinitely. This isn't some academic argument about what happened 300 years ago in the ohio valley, this is a nuclear armed nation with a professional military saying our stated goal right now and in the future is to take more of your land to be resettled by hardliners of our ethnostate. If israel said no more settlements, you get statehood and basic human rights our bad this never would have happened.
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Oct 7, 2023 17:57
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Red and Black posted:Every second in this thread we move closer to a settler both sidesing wounded knee I don't know if it's both-sidesing but many of the posts here read exactly like right-wing Zionists every time the IDF commits an atrocity. "Yes it's a shame whenever people die, but we have to reclaim our stolen property, there is no way to avoid killing innocents to protect ourselves against the thief nation, we have to teach them to respect us, it is what it is. And maybe they're not really innocent anyway, many of them are sympathetic to the terrorists..." It's actually dissapointing to see someone with a username like "Red and Black," so you'd expect an anarchist perspective, one grounded in how people are trapped in various classes of a colonial project, and not "there's a good nation and a bad nation and sometimes what the good nation does to the bad nation won't be so pretty, deal with it" emanresu tnuocca posted:Yeah, that's a myth. It is insane blood-and-soil stuff to think it matters either way, as if inviolable roperty rights are inheritable by blood or ethno-cultural tradition. As if we have to find which land rightfully belongs to which nation, based on some neutral historical survey, and that'll achieve justice for us today. The only solution is to give up the idea that nations are entitled to land, and hold on to the idea that people shouldn't be kicked out of their houses. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 17:58
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zer0spunk posted:I hate to tell ya, the population doesn't support the right-wing administration, and neither does the military..probably doesn't help when they've acitively been trying to do away with the current checks and balances on the train to authoritarian control Why does the right wing administration keep winning every election?
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Oct 7, 2023 17:58
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thekeeshman posted:If you believe prior residence claims go back indefinitely then the Palestinians are the settlers since they moved in after the Jews were expelled by the Romans. Last I checked, most genetic & anthropological research suggests that Palestinians are simply the descendants of Jews who converted to Islam rather than leave. It's what makes a lot of the ethnic strife darkly ironic.
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Oct 7, 2023 18:00
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adebisi lives posted:Why does the right wing administration keep winning every election? While Israeli system works differently than the US one, it is somewhat comparable to republican overrepressenration. And it’s still a coalition government and to get power, lot of smaller parties band together with likud. The balance of power isn’t actually all that stilted and there’s hope for better as long as democracy doesn’t wane under Netanyahu.
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Oct 7, 2023 18:02
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Vahakyla posted:While Israeli system works differently than the US one, it is somewhat comparable to republican overrepressenration. And it’s still a coalition government and to get power, lot of smaller parties band together with likud. The balance of power isn’t actually all that stilted and there’s hope for better as long as democracy doesn’t wane under Netanyahu. not really? israel has a pretty fair system that is much more representative of the voters' wishes than the US' system, and has waffled between right-wing secular and right-wing religious governments since Rabin died there's no silent majority of Meretz voters
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Oct 7, 2023 18:03
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Neurolimal posted:Last I checked, most genetic & anthropological research suggests that Palestinians are simply the descendants of Jews who converted to Islam rather than leave. It's what makes a lot of the ethnic strife darkly ironic. Its a region with continuous human inhabitance for more than a million years. Who was there first is an answer that is lost to time beyond known human history. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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