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So what's next? A decade long occupation of Gaza? Lebanon 2.0?
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Oct 8, 2023 04:34
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Tragicomic posted:So what's next? A decade long occupation of Gaza? Lebanon 2.0? my money is on a similar sequence of events to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis quote:Egypt mediated a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas, which came into effect on 21 May 2021, ending 11 days of fighting in which both sides claimed victory.[2] On 16 June 2021, incendiary balloons were launched from Gaza into Israel, which the Israeli Air Force responded to with multiple airstrikes in the Gaza Strip, resuming the fighting.[68]
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Oct 8, 2023 04:38
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Weird how you don't see a lot of Palestinian posters in these threads. Is there something wrong with the broadband in Gaza? Or do they just choose better forums? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 8, 2023 04:46
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 04:49
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mannerup posted:succinct summary of the conflict That makes it sound equal which it’s not.
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Oct 8, 2023 05:34
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Internet in Gaza is not terrible, and no websites are banned. It is provided by Israeli telecom. Hamas does ban porn, but it’s not exactly well enforced. There’s also palestinians here on the forums but it’s perhaps not surprising that such cosmopolitan state as Israel and its tech sector would produce more terminally online goons than those in a prison who are focused on survival. https://x.com/ntarnopolsky/status/1710680620936904788?s=46&t=0ObKB1uU08vvzY7q8Sx2dg I’m hopeful the rift in the IDF and its unwilligness to follow the judicial reforms and the Netanyahu side develop unworkable differences. Wrong Netanyahu died at Entebbe. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 05:40
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Main Paineframe posted:There won't be an occupation. It'll probably just be collective punishment: the IDF will roll in, start blowing up civilian infrastructure until it seems like angry voters' bloodlust has been somewhat sated, and then pull out and announce that Gazans need to overthrow Hamas if they want any kind of relief supplies to be allowed through the border crossings anytime soon. That's how these always go. Good summary. While I understand there been a pattern of behavior I would be surprised if just the same thing occurred. This is a fundamental different situation given something like this hasn't happen in over a half century. Main Paineframe posted:It's not a possibility because Israel won't accept it. But as long as Israel is adamant about demanding that Palestinians make massive concessions in return for minimal concessions from Israel, the "peace process" is nothing more than a farce. Which is fine with Israel, since all it really wants is to go through the motions to keep the international community off their back while they transfer their own population into as much of the West Bank as possible. Why won't Israel accept it? And if you were an Israeli citizen I can't imagine being attracted to a home near the West Bank or Gaza Strip given the current circumstances. Even in the future.
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Oct 8, 2023 05:53
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Morning, The IDF seems to be in control of the situation now, many hostages have been released so far. Some mortar fire from Lebanon, hopefully that won't start anything more. The news sources are mostly talking about the last 24 hours and the efforts on the Gaza periphery, from which hundreds of Israeli citizens have been evacuated. Around 300 dead and thousands injured on the Israeli side, no information is given on the many Palestinian civilian casualties but I'd be surprised if they're not at least ten times as much. IDF speaker just stated that they expect to regain control of the periphery within hours, there are still dozens of hostages and hundreds of loose terrorists unaccounted for. As for me: no talk about Jerusalem so I must assume that my family at least is safe. I hope this morning finds you in a better situation.
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Oct 8, 2023 06:06
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Why won't Israel accept it? And if you were an Israeli citizen I can't imagine being attracted to a home near the West Bank or Gaza Strip given the current circumstances. Even in the future. Because why would Israel accept that, when it involves giving up colonized land, when instead it can keep on keeping on ratcheting down and sometimes blowing up a lot of stuff and get worldwide support as it has for most of a century?
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Oct 8, 2023 06:31
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Good summary. While I understand there been a pattern of behavior I would be surprised if just the same thing occurred. This is a fundamental different situation given something like this hasn't happen in over a half century. Houses near Gaza or near (or in) the west bank are much much cheaper than anywhere else, and Israel has a cost of living and housing price crisis just like most places. Tel Aviv and Jerusalem have absolutely wild house prices and rent. So yeah, reasonable people wouldn't live there, but there are both hardcore believers and people who just need a place to live within driving distance of big cities (because again, Israel is tiny)
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Oct 8, 2023 06:35
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Karatela posted:Because why would Israel accept that, when it involves giving up colonized land, when instead it can keep on keeping on ratcheting down and sometimes blowing up a lot of stuff and get worldwide support as it has for most of a century? Form current events, it seems that continually ratcheting down is not a strategy that works especially in the long term. Miftan posted:Houses near Gaza or near (or in) the west bank are much much cheaper than anywhere else, and Israel has a cost of living and housing price crisis just like most places. Tel Aviv and Jerusalem have absolutely wild house prices and rent. Good point. It's freaking wild how in 2023 the leading crisis isn't a world war, pandemic or AI but that rent is still way too drat high.
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Oct 8, 2023 06:39
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People have been living in Otef Aza for decades, the low cost of living is only a factor in places like Sderot, the people in the kibbutzim don't live there because of the cost of living. If anything they're ideologues just like the settlers in the west bank. I could never understand what sane person would ever choose to turn themselves and their families into a human shield, willingly.
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Oct 8, 2023 06:41
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It's not all that dissimilar to how many americans fill their houses with loose guns, people get so deep into a political ideology it cancels out rational thinking.
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Oct 8, 2023 06:51
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Pointed this out in the other thread, but it's interesting how the canned Israel statement has warped; normally the line is "Israel and Palestine must stop the aggression and return to the peace process", but now, across every Western government, the line is "We will support Israel as they atomize the Gaza Strip". I don't believe it's radicalization, rather a coldly cynical understanding that if the usual conflict freezing happens right now, with Hamas managing to seize decent chunks (relative to Gaza) of territory, it would be an abject victory for Palestine. "The west doesn't give a poo poo about peace and just wants Israel to finish subjugating Palestine" isn't exactly a novel observation, but it's still incredible how effortlessly-and unanimously-the message has shifted. Hell, just about every major Canadian politician simultaneously put out messages along these lines. Freezing is only acceptable if the outcome of the conflict is "Israel bombed all of Gaza's utilities, a couple of rockets landed in Israel".
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Oct 8, 2023 07:04
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Form current events, it seems that continually ratcheting down is not a strategy that works especially in the long term. Based on what? What consequences that they care about have they endured?
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Oct 8, 2023 07:32
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Captain Oblivious posted:Based on what? What consequences that they care about have they endured? Over 300 dead and over 100 taken as hostages?
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Oct 8, 2023 07:36
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https://twitter.com/N12News/status/1710906155717816586 No choice but to uhhhh echo president Barack Obama's message from 2014 quote:"We have serious concerns about the rising number of Palestinian deaths and the loss of Israeli lives, and that is why it now has to be our focus and the focus of the international community to bring about a ceasefire that ends the fighting and that stop the deaths of innocent civilians,” Lay down your arms, uhh settle down, no take-backsies, give peace a chance, lines may have uhhh moved a little but thats no reason to murder each other.
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Oct 8, 2023 07:48
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Good summary. While I understand there been a pattern of behavior I would be surprised if just the same thing occurred. This is a fundamental different situation given something like this hasn't happen in over a half century. The reason the settlements got built and expanded so much in the first place is because there's significant political support for them. Spreading those illegal settlements into the West Bank was an intentional government policy. Even if the government changes its stance, roughly 700,000 people (10% of Israel's Jewish population) lives in the settlements, absolutely none of whom want to be forced out. On top of that, there's a significant political lobby that believes in the annexation of the entire West Bank for religious or nationalist reasons. Those two factors combined means that dismantling settlements en masse carries a political cost no Israeli politician wants to face if they can help it. To make it even worse, the combination of those two factors have led to the growth of radical extremist settlers movements who commit terrorism to "punish" both Palestinians and the Israeli government for any action that is seen as being insufficiently pro-settlements. To put things into perspective here, when Israel evacuated the Gaza settlements, there were just 6,000 Israeli Jews living in those settlements. Few cooperated willingly, and most of them had to be ordered to leave by armed soldiers. At several settlements, the settlers barricaded themselves inside, rioted, or even shot at IDF troops; the soldiers ended up having to use riot gear to force their way into buildings and subdue some of the settlers by force to remove them. Meanwhile, back in Israel proper, tens of thousands of people attended protests against the disengagement, while the media ran lots of pictures of crying families being dragged from their homes by soldiers. It's not hard to see why even the few anti-settlement politicians wouldn't be eager to repeat something like that with several hundred thousand people.
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Oct 8, 2023 08:28
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I've generally avoided this thread in the past because the whole I/P situation is just too grim and it never improves for the Palestinians, so imagine my surprise when I dropped in here yesterday to get the scuttlebutt and people were calling for posters to be respectful of Israeli goons' feelings in these trying times, including an actual literal settler posting updates from the West Bank lmao. If SA existed in the '70s and '80s, no doubt we'd have Afrikaner posters here telling us to please be respectful of their suffering in the face of the murderous swarte onslaught. The course this will take now is depressingly clear. All I have to add is that seeing that TikTok video that someone posted of that rave near Gaza where they pan a big crowd of Coachella-esque partygoers and then zoom in on several paragliders ominously flying in the background makes me feel like I'm living in an Adam Curtis documentary.
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Oct 8, 2023 08:34
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He's not a settler in the west bank, he lives in jerusalem, it's like, I understand everyone is up in arms and as an Israeli goon I hardly expect my feelings to be spared but like jesus christ, he's not a settler, at least not under the standard definition, I mean we're all settlers to you guys anyway so it's kinda funny to pretend like that's what makes the difference but... at times understanding some basic facts and the geography of the region can be rather helpful, Bethlehem is very close to Jerusalem. This is not America or Europe where cities are tens or hundreds of kilometers away from one another, you can walk from Bethlehem to Jerusalem in 45 minutes or so.
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Oct 8, 2023 08:38
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emanresu tnuocca posted:He's not a settler in the west bank, he lives in jerusalem, it's like, I understand everyone is up in arms and as an Israeli goon I hardly expect my feelings to be spared but like jesus christ, he's not a settler, at least not under the standard definition, I mean we're all settlers to you guys anyway so it's kinda funny to pretend like that's what makes the difference but... at times understanding some basic facts and the geography of the region can be rather helpful, Bethlehem is very close to Jerusalem. East Jerusalem is occupied territory.
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Oct 8, 2023 09:01
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Not helpful. Removed.
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Oct 8, 2023 09:09
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emanresu tnuocca posted:He's not a settler in the west bank, he lives in jerusalem, it's like, I understand everyone is up in arms and as an Israeli goon I hardly expect my feelings to be spared but like jesus christ, he's not a settler, at least not under the standard definition, I mean we're all settlers to you guys anyway so it's kinda funny to pretend like that's what makes the difference but... at times understanding some basic facts and the geography of the region can be rather helpful, Bethlehem is very close to Jerusalem. ... I'm honestly kinda upset and disgusted by "the HAMAS no choice but to go around murdering women and children - otherwise, how could they get thousands of Palestinians killed... I mean, destroy the colonialist state of Israel, each man, woman and child". Where the gently caress are the basic "totally just a decent leftist here, I want to see regime change and don't wish any harm to the actual Jews (Druze, Bedouin etc)" masks? Xander77 fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 09:17
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Is this going to achieve anything meaningful? No. Is it going to entrench anti-Palestinian sentiment? Yes. Is this going to strengthen the right-wing in Israel? Certainly. Is it going to lead to Israel responding with even greater violence against Palestinian civilians? It already has. But it satisfies the bloodlust of a few people thousands of miles away on a dying webforum, so it's impossible to really pass judgement on whether the attacks are good or not.
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Oct 8, 2023 09:33
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Over 300 dead and over 100 taken as hostages? That. And now you live in in an environment of constant fear. This is a huge failure by the Israeli government to protect it's own citizens. It's a fundamental failure of current policy and I have a hard time seeing that continue.
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Oct 8, 2023 09:55
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Main Paineframe posted:The reason the settlements got built and expanded so much in the first place is because there's significant political support for them. Spreading those illegal settlements into the West Bank was an intentional government policy. This makes so much more sense. Thanks for the quick history lesson.
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Oct 8, 2023 10:06
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Xander77 posted:I'm honestly kinda upset and disgusted by "the HAMAS no choice but to go around murdering women and children - otherwise, how could they get thousands of Palestinians killed... I mean, destroy the colonialist state of Israel, each man, woman and child" Turns out if you keep a bunch of people concentrated in one area, limit their ability to move freely and acquire goods and services, some of them get upset at this. Some, even angry enough to fight about it! Nobody likes the decadea of death and destruction the IP conflict has caused, but pretending that yesterday's actions happened in a vacuum is a complete misrepresentation of historic fact.
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Oct 8, 2023 10:10
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A senior spokesman from the militant Palestinian group Hamas said it was not attacking civilians, despite claims by Amnesty International and other rights groups. Responding today while speaking to Al Jazeera, the senior Hamas spokesperson Osama Hamadan said his group was not attacking civilians. “You have to differentiate between settlers and civilians. Settlers attacked Palestinians…We hope that Amnesty has international humility to send us more developed weapons to attack only the soldiers,” he said, per Al Jazeera. “We are not targeting civilians on purpose. We have declared settlers are part of the occupation and part of the armed Israeli force. They are not civilians,” he said. ... Well. That's the worst loving way to try to get around the various videos of war crimes and dead naked civilians. This is just...
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Oct 8, 2023 10:21
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dadrips posted:Turns out if you keep a bunch of people concentrated in one area, limit their ability to move freely and acquire goods and services, some of them get upset at this. Some, even angry enough to fight about it! ... Fuckdammit, let's be more serious about this. 1. Check out the state of Gaza in the 1970s and 1980s - what kind of freedom of movement existed between Israel and Gaza and Gaza and Egypt. That change did not happen in a vacuum. 2. Angry Salami posted:Is this going to achieve anything meaningful? No. Is it going to entrench anti-Palestinian sentiment? Yes. Is this going to strengthen the right-wing in Israel? Certainly. Is it going to lead to Israel responding with even greater violence against Palestinian civilians? It already has.
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Oct 8, 2023 10:23
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Neurolimal posted:Pointed this out in the other thread, but it's interesting how the canned Israel statement has warped; normally the line is "Israel and Palestine must stop the aggression and return to the peace process", but now, across every Western government, the line is "We will support Israel as they atomize the Gaza Strip". I don't believe it's radicalization, rather a coldly cynical understanding that if the usual conflict freezing happens right now, with Hamas managing to seize decent chunks (relative to Gaza) of territory, it would be an abject victory for Palestine. I suspect western politicians are utterly terrified of the group think on the issue. If you side with the Palestinians, your career is over, regardless of any of your actual political priorities or accomplishments. Some of this is the Israel lobby but it has become such a social norm that any criticism of Israel in this situation is tantamount to antisemitism that you will be rooted out as a heretic. Look what happened to Jeremy Corbyn. The ruling classes, which is mostly gentiles, needs Israel. They benefit from Israel.
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Oct 8, 2023 10:28
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Xander77 posted:Turns out that if you keep murdering people, they will place you in a concentrated area and limit your ability to move freely. Pretending that that different states of Palestinians of Gaza, the Western Bank and Israel happened in a vacuum is a complete misrepresentation of historic fact. Wonderful mindset on show here, really exemplifies why Israel is known as the sole fount of democracy and civilisation in the middle east...
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Oct 8, 2023 10:28
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Xander77 posted:Sderot, Ahskelon etc are also within the Green Line. So? They're near Gaza, as is pretty much every town and village in Southern Israel. I can't tell if you're speaking in good faith when you're distorting what other posters are saying, but I'll try to respond in good faith. I personally suspect the aging demographics of this forum probably has a lot to do with the increased cynicism that you're interpreting as genocidal hostility towards Jewish Israelis. Many of us have spent over a decade watching Israeli politics descend deeper and deeper into apartheid hell while mainstream Western politicians uselessly urge for a long-dead two-state solution. We're not dumb teenagers learning these issues for the first time, and most of us are not going to be convinced by the same bullshit that gets repeated whenever this violence happens. I am not saying Hamas is justified in killing civilians. I am only saying that it's hard to feel especially outraged at Hamas's atrocities when the Israeli military inevitably responds with even worse violence every cycle, especially when the only long-term solution being seriously discussed by those in power is clearly not making any progress. Personally, I think Jews should ideally be able to keep their own state. Every ethnic group on the planet that wants their own state should ideally be able to get their own state, including the Palestinians. We have repeatedly seen how awful life can be for ethnic minorities like the Kurds or Uyhurs when they do not have their own state. However, the two-state solution is not realistic, and the Israeli policies of the last few decades enabling massive illegal settlements have only made the promise of the two-state solution even less realistic. Is it really so surprising that many Palestinians and their supporters are now demanding a one-state solution with a multi-ethnic democracy as the primary solution after decades of bad faith proposals for a two-state solution? Israeli conservatives will inevitably interpret such demands as an attempt to destroy their state through the ballot box after the Palestinians failed to do so with bullets. However, if both the maximialist one-state solution and the compromise of the two-state solution are equally unrealistic, then why not just demand everything? In case I'm not being clear, the Israelis are the only ones here with the power to make lasting peace. It ultimately doesn't much matter what the Palestinians or their supporters are demanding or doing in response to their oppression because only the Israeli government has the power to break this cycle
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Oct 8, 2023 10:32
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Lid posted:A senior spokesman from the militant Palestinian group Hamas said it was not attacking civilians, despite claims by Amnesty International and other rights groups. loving sociopathic monsters. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Senjuro fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 10:33
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Senjuro posted:Exact same rationalization you get from several people ITT. Those dead and kidnapped children were hardened war criminal settlers, don't you know? So were a bunch of Bedouin. Settlers worthy of execution one and all.
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Oct 8, 2023 10:41
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Xander77 posted:Turns out that if you keep murdering people, they will place you in a concentrated area and limit your ability to move freely. Not if you're Israeli. Then there's pretty much no consequences at all. It's ironic you're accusing others of misrepresenting historical facts while you are completely glossing over the oppressor/oppressed dynamic. Might makes right and Israel is strong so they feel they should get to do what they want to Palestinians. But it turns out that they aren't strong enough to completely negate the impact of actively pissing off millions of people within the open air prison they operate. When your mentality is "kill em all and let God sort em out," but you can't actually kill them all, then eventually it will come back on you. Israel will have to learn that at some point if they actually want to make Israel safe and prevent these kinds of attacks in the future. At some point they are going to have to stop treating the Palestinians as a subjugated people.
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Oct 8, 2023 10:44
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Senjuro posted:loving sociopathic monsters. Don’t sign your posts (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 8, 2023 10:46
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Senjuro posted:Exact same rationalization you get from several people ITT. Those dead and kidnapped children were hardened war criminal settlers, don't you know? So were a bunch of Bedouin. Settlers worthy of execution one and all. I don't see people doing that ITT. People are certainly doing that elsewhere, relishing dead Israelis, and it is not good. At the same time, I don't think it is fair to hold Palestinians or their supporters to a standard of being perfect victims. Collateral damage happens in every war, as do war crimes, as do combatants getting emotional and taking their frustration out on the wrong people. As for people on the internet, slinging mud, they are angry. They want to maximize how much they hurt your feelings, in a sort of impotent rage at the social norms that don't let people give even gentle criticisms of Israel as well as not actually being able to do anything about the conflict in any direction. You saw this with people calling Russians orcs and relishing dead Russian conscripts. That doesn't mean Russia was innocent or justified in invading Ukraine. Let's also not forget that "The Internet Makes You Stupid." It's probably better to mute the conversation until tempers recede.
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Oct 8, 2023 10:47
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dadrips posted:Can you point out where posters in this thread are actually endorsing and/or celebrating killings like you allege, instead of people justifiably saying "this is horrible but also kind of an inevitable consequence of the Israeli government treating Gaza like an open air prison for decades"? As for examples, here's a couple: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3754814&pagenumber=320&perpage=40#post535096227 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3754814&pagenumber=320&perpage=40#post535096453
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Oct 8, 2023 10:48
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acidx posted:Not if you're Israeli. Then there's pretty much no consequences at all. It's ironic you're accusing others of misrepresenting historical facts while you are completely glossing over the oppressor/oppressed dynamic. Might makes right and Israel is strong so they feel they should get to do what they want to Palestinians. But it turns out that they aren't strong enough to completely negate the impact of actively pissing off millions of people within the open air prison they operate. When your mentality is "kill em all and let God sort em out," but you can't actually kill them all, then eventually it will come back on you. Israel will have to learn that at some point if they actually want to make Israel safe and prevent these kinds of attacks in the future. At some point they are going to have to stop treating the Palestinians as a subjugated people. What precisely would make that happen? This has been going on for decades and Israel as a state hasn't exactly moved towards anything better in that time.
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Oct 8, 2023 10:51
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It is entirely possible to have nothing but sympathy for the Israelis killed or otherwise impacted by this, even the virulently racist ones, while at the same time condemning the Israeli government for the situation. Any immediate guilt is theirs alone. Any other considerations can be made once the occupation is over.
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Oct 8, 2023 10:52
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