|
Senjuro posted:Can't help but think that all hope died with Ariel Sharon. Despite his past, late in his life he somehow became the only person with the required popularity and, at least as far I could tell, the will to make the enormous changes Israel would need for any deal to be reached. In an alternate timeline where he lived another term or two all this poo poo could be over by now or at least on the path to it instead of this endless death spiral. The idea of any concessions by Israel is now even more dead and buried than he is. It can really only end violently now. Probably, yeah. I mean, think about how inconceivable withdrawing settlers now is, but he managed to do it from Gaza in 2005. I have no doubt that regardless of whether Bibi stays in power or is replaced by some other far right goon, Israel will become even more openly fascist now. The interesting question is whether public sentiment abroad will sour on Israel when it inevitably begins visibly crossing red lines, like cutting off all access to Al-Aqua or somethi fb like that.
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 13:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 01:36 |
|
|
 Israeli tracked vehicle losses osint confirmed. Proof videos in comments are nms and have dead civilians. Tread lightly. I've included the tweet text below if you don't want to click through. This is also a post from about 20 hrs ago. https://twitter.com/emilkastehelmi/status/1710689546164183425 quote:The Israeli tracked vehicle losses are high. Today I have counted at least the following, mostly captured but some also damaged:
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 13:22
|
|
|
First I learn that the IDF has a combat vehicle literally named 'cruel female' , how fitting. Not to worry everyone I'm sure the U.S. will immediately send BILLIONS in military aid which is of course just the thing needed to right now. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 13:34
|
|
|
My first thought was, regardless of how justifiable, killing a bunch of civilians (or people perceived to be civilians) is a terrible idea. It'll just galvanize the worst hardliners among your opponents and invite horrific reprisals. But after thinking about that dynamic for just a bit longer, it's clear that applies to both sides. No matter what the Palestinians do, they're met with brutality. So what else is going to happen? The most optimistic take I've seen is that article about how the fear and hatred Israelis feel right now is how the Palestinians feel constantly. There's a superficially correct sounding idea that Palestinians need to somehow prove that they can be good neighbors or else the Israelis are going to keep electing right wing fascists because they're scared or whatever, but that's never going to happen. Not even for lack of trying, but just because fear is a powerful electoral force in a democracy. Any fear can be ginned up for votes. Israel will never stop fearing Palestinians. What might work is understanding, just a little, what effect real brutality is having on your opponents. If this attack is just inspiring terror and rage in Israel, what do they think everything Israel has ever done is doing in Palestine? If an attack like this proves that the status quo is untenable, and Israel must do something about it, it also proves that the normal brutal reprisals aren't working. Israel needs to eventually try something else if they want this to end. As an outside observer- If it's hosed up and inevitable that Israel is going to kill a bunch of innocent Palestinians right now, then it's just as hosed up and inevitable that a bunch of innocent Israelis were killed for basically the same reason. And when you remember that Israel is the only party here with the power to change things, it's clear that the cycle of sad inevitability is not morally symmetrical. Trust has no chance of building naturally on either side. The only hope is for Israel to realize the status quo isn't working and isn't acceptable. While I wouldn't advocate for it, I can't deny that killing a bunch of (perceived) civilians might actually make Israel do that. Of course it's entirely plausible that the Israeli conclusion will just be that they need to double down on genocide, but it's not like there's anything else the Palestinians could conceivably be doing that would have an obviously better result.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 13:49
|
|
|
Eiba posted:There's a superficially correct sounding idea that Palestinians need to somehow prove that they can be good neighbors or else the Israelis are going to keep electing right wing fascists because they're scared or whatever, but that's never going to happen. Not even for lack of trying, but just because fear is a powerful electoral force in a democracy. Any fear can be ginned up for votes. Israel will never stop fearing Palestinians. I think we can argue that in the West Bank they have been trying to be good neighbors for a while now. And what did they got? Settlements, their lands and water getting stolen, and than constant bullying and humiliation from the settlers edit: they do live a bit better than the palestinians in Gaza, but also under constant abuse and humiliation and watching their territory get smaller every they
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 13:54
|
|
|
Israel formally declared war against Hamas. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/08/israel-gaza-strikes-hamas-netanyahu/ quote:Israel on Sunday issued a formal declaration of war against Hamas and pounded Gaza with strikes, promising retaliation for an unprecedented attack by the militant group that surprised Israeli security forces. The death toll has risen to 600 in Israel, according to local media, while Palestinian authorities said at least 313 were killed in Gaza. Thousands more have been injured. Fears of a regional spillover grew after Lebanon’s militant group, Hezbollah, said it attacked Israeli targets near the border “in solidarity” with Hamas and Israel said it struck back. Of note, this is the first time since 1973 that they've officially declared war.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 13:54
|
|
|
Eiba posted:
This is the key take away for me: this decisively ends the long-running accepted situation where the Palestinians are penned in and Israel continually slowly but surely expands its settlements, while the outside world makes empty noises about some sort of 2 state solution at some point, maybe. I don't think there's any going back to that now: whatever happens next, it's going to be something new and different, which I guess is the strategic aim of the attack, to shatter the status quo.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 13:56
|
|
|
The best thing that Israel could do to undermine international support for Hamas would be to better work with Palestinians in the West Bank, while going hard on Hamas in response to this. Show that the Hamas approach isn't the most productive one. The Hamas attacks on civilians are inexcusable, and they will make the lives of people in Gaza worse, but it's also hard to argue that they aren't better at stopping the territorial expansion of Israel.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 13:56
|
|
|
Pistol_Pete posted:This is the key take away for me: this decisively ends the long-running accepted situation where the Palestinians are penned in and Israel continually slowly but surely expands its settlements, while the outside world makes empty noises about some sort of 2 state solution at some point, maybe. I don't think there's any going back to that now: whatever happens next, it's going to be something new and different, which I guess is the strategic aim of the attack, to shatter the status quo.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 13:57
|
|
|
I hope not but many many people will die before the IDF gets called back, that's the Israeli doctrine.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:03
|
|
|
There’s videos of (probable?) IDF soldiers literally raving and partying while the Hamas fighters fly over them and the IDF soldiers don’t seem to care that there’s armed militants flying overhead. Kinda wild how much money the US has lost by sending it to the Middle East. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:09
|
|
|
BUUNNI posted:There’s videos of (probable?) IDF soldiers literally raving and partying while the Hamas fighters fly over them and the IDF soldiers don’t seem to care that there’s armed militants flying overhead. Those were just regular civilians at a bush rave. And they were probably on drugs considering the time of the morning it was. Some of them were subsequently slaughtered by militants and their corpses paraded around on cars. Or kidnapped to whatever horrible end that typically befalls women getting kidnapped. Some kidnapped have been confirmed alive via proof of life videos. But it wasn't a bunch of IDF soldiers popping molly to psytrance by any commonly understood context (aka, outside of "every Israeli is a soldier " type statement). Edit- This is the original video from TikTok that is being reposted but it's very up in the air about authenticity. The account only has this video uploaded and nothing else, but it certainly looks authentic. No, you can't really see the Hamas paratroopers, it looks like AA smoke imo. https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8rBK8mF/ Nothing nms except the horrible juxtaposition of ContinuityNewTimes posted:Imagine holding a loving rave directly next to an open air prison ummel fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Oct 8, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:14
|
|
|
A lot of them were from other countries too.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:16
|
|
|
As much as I'm against the U.S. military aid it seems to me that the sheer unhindered corruption of the Iraq and Afghanistan administrations drained way more money then that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:16
|
|
|
Fragrag posted:The current events thread in Goons in Platoons is relatively level-headed Thanks! Took me a bit to find the Goons in Platoons forum after the re-name.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:17
|
|
|
ummel posted:Those were just regular civilians at a bush rave. Bit of a weird place to have an all-night dance party (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:28
|
|
|
Every time someone pops up with the attacks on civilians need to stop I realize how badly educated people are on the apartheid system that attacks and degrades civilians daily which has gone on for decade. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:38
|
|
|
hadji murad posted:Every time someone pops up with the attacks on civilians need to stop I realize how badly educated people are on the apartheid system that attacks and degrades civilians daily which has gone on for decade. What are you even trying to say? And the occupation has gone on much further than a decade.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:42
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:42
|
|
|
hadji murad posted:Every time someone pops up with the attacks on civilians need to stop I realize how badly educated people are on the apartheid system that attacks and degrades civilians daily which has gone on for decade. I can 100% guarantee you - personally - that your countrymen and/or ethnic group have committed heinous atrocities within the last 80 years. Because that is true for nearly the entire world’s population. Despite those horrendous things your - poster Hadji Murad - countrymen have done, I would not be okay with someone breaking into your home, murdering your family, and parading their mutilated bodies through the street. But hey, that’s just me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:50
|
|
|
ummel posted:Edit- This is the original video from TikTok that is being reposted but it's very up in the air about authenticity. The account only has this video uploaded and nothing else, but it certainly looks authentic. No, you can't really see the Hamas paratroopers, it looks like AA smoke imo. Nah there’s another video that pans over a crowd of dancing young people and the zooms in on the sky in the background to very clearly show 4-5 paraglides in the distance. It seems like a lot of people thought it was a performance of some kind.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:51
|
|
|
BUUNNI posted:Bit of a weird place to have an all-night dance party Can you draw the designated partying zones on a map?
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:54
|
|
|
BUUNNI posted:There’s videos of (probable?) IDF soldiers literally raving and partying while the Hamas fighters fly over them and the IDF soldiers don’t seem to care that there’s armed militants flying overhead. Those were just civilians. The infamous video from yesterday of the naked dead woman on the back of a truck who is getting spit on was a german civilian from that rave, for example, a rave called "Festival for peace"... and her mother was last seen pleading on twitter about it.  Supposedly hundreds more died there. Honestly these videos from yesterday showed Hamas doing things that are completely indefensible. They've just positioned themselves closer to terror groups like ISIS than ever before Collapsing Farts fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Oct 8, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:54
|
|
|
hadji murad posted:Every time someone pops up with the attacks on civilians need to stop I realize how badly educated people are on the apartheid system that attacks and degrades civilians daily which has gone on for decade.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 14:55
|
|
|
This is discussion is providing an excellent example of the whole problem and why violence begets more violence. Israel does something horrific but to have that same cruelty follow-up by others is also wrong. Did anyone parents here ever teach them two wrongs don't make it right? The whole situation really sucks and I don't see it getting any better.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:01
|
|
|
Also on actual news topics, Hezbollah seems to have decided not to do anything, rather as expected. They shelled Shebaa Farms (a tiny, tiny fragment of Lebanese land that through weird technicalities, Syria controlled and then Israel captured from Syria along with Golan) and Israel shelled them back. Them targeting Shebaa Farms, and just Shebaa Farms, is essentially equivalent to a "sending thoughts and prayers" type of message from Hezbollah to Hamas. Could escalate further of course, but that's not going to be a major ignition salvo.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:02
|
|
|
I wonder if the brutality was planned. On the one hand if Hamas avoided civilian casualties they would get a bit more international credibility. But if they're extra brutal then it ensures Israel comes back at them even harder. Gaza will suffer terribly over these next weeks and months. But the scale may be enough to shock Israel's allies into lessening some support. It already seems unlikely the Abraham Accords will proceed. Or this could be what happens when militant fighters make their way into the enemy homeland. Some will just go wild unless their superiors keep them tightly controlled.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:02
|
|
|
Eiba posted:The most optimistic take I've seen is that article about how the fear and hatred Israelis feel right now is how the Palestinians feel constantly. Leaving aside the incredibly worthwhile "is killing But of course, if anyone now supports destructive military action in Gaza, it's because they were always a bigot thirsty for Palestinian blood and so on and so on.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:06
|
|
|
Collapsing Farts posted:Those were just civilians. Indefensible certainly. An inevitable consequence of material reality? Also yes. The boiled frogs have guns and broke out, it was never going to clean. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:30
|
|
|
Regarde Aduck posted:Indefensible certainly. An inevitable consequence of material reality? Also yes. The boiled frogs have guns and broke out, it was never going to clean. There have been plenty of minorities oppressed through out human history. Some of them did not stoop to the level of murdering even the dumbest and naive ravers.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:33
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:36
|
|
|
mannerup posted:I don’t think being murdered or kidnapped from a rave is an ‘inevitable consequence of material reality’. The sick motherfuckers who did it have agency, and chose to do so. You make it sound incompatible but these two perspectives are perfectly compatible.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:42
|
|
|
I think it's been demonstrated over and over that terrorism is a byproduct of subjugating, bombing and robbing entire communities of people of their families, their lives, their homes, and their dignity. So yes this attack is an "inevitable consequence" because everyone expected it to happen eventually (except I guess the Israeli government, for some reason, because they continued to encourage families to live in stolen houses on occupied land? Very weird)
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:43
|
|
|
Xander77 posted:Hell yeah. You know how much empathy towards airstrike and drone victims 9\11 helped create. What hadn't really occurred to me before reading this discussion and things people linked was that this didn't happen in End Of History self-absorbed 2001 America. Israel already has the hard-line fascists in power being as harsh as humanly possible. And they hosed up. They failed. They can't say "we need to elect more fascists to prevent this" when the fascists in power demonstrably did not prevent this. I'm not saying that's a great hope, but can you think of a better one?
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:47
|
|
|
smoobles posted:I think it's been demonstrated over and over that terrorism is a byproduct of subjugating, bombing and robbing entire communities of people of their families, their lives, their homes, and their dignity. Is that true? What for example causes white nationalist terrorism in the USA - or Islamaic terrorism against minorities Iraq?
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:49
|
|
|
So just heard an interview on NPR from an Arab Israeli. He was on the phone with his sister when she and her family were killed by Hamas fighters.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:51
|
|
|
mannerup posted:killing civilians is bad This is true. It is also true that when you take a population and put them in an apartheid system, and you kill them and their children, and this drags on for years and decades, that you’ve created the recipe for extremists. That’s the oxygen Hamas needs to exist. So no it’s not justifiable, the same as it isn’t justifiable when a kid who was severely abused by their parents goes on to be a serial killer. But it’s predictable. Edit Sri.Theo posted:Is that true? What for example causes white nationalist terrorism in the USA - or Islamaic terrorism against minorities Iraq? There’s not only one cause for terrorism. Fork of Unknown Origins fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Oct 8, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:52
|
|
|
Count Roland posted:I wonder if the brutality was planned. Hamas getting dismantled by force in the coming weeks would reinforce Egyptian/Saudi narratives that odds of Palestinian liberation by violence are nil, that Hamas is not a serious prospect for a Palestinian reconciliation government that can participate in said cause by negotiation, and that the time has come to move on, even if its collapse just goes on to spawn Fatah Mk.III regionally The competition for pan-Islamic revolutionary prestige is dead, I think. The world's largest internment camps for Muslims in a non-rhetorical way actually exist and the response from key OIC members is actively laudatory (no-one still thinks that Beijing "has to" make concessions to East Turkestan nationalists to obtain peace); there is no Soviet-invasion-of-Afghanistan unity of anger. The post-Arab-Spring experience has taught governments and dissidents alike that street anger can be crushed and survived with sufficient brutality, that concessions only empower dissidents, that civil rights do not guarantee economic prosperity, and that the technology exists today to practically police the madrassahs at scale. It is no longer necessary to 'ride the tiger' of radicalism, and support for e.g. Egyptian armed intervention in Gaza is overwhelmingly unpopular in Egypt to begin with. So if regional governments do not feel domestically pressured to back Palestine, they won't (not that this entails, necessarily, backing Israel).
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:53
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 01:36 |
|
|
Sri.Theo posted:Is that true? What for example causes white nationalist terrorism in the USA Largely the same things in my post, except rooted in misinformation and xenophobia. Right wing terrorists actually believe they're being subjugated and have no legal way to get their country back or make the 2020 election un-stolen. But this seems like a derail from the point I made.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2023 15:54
|
|