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Willo567 posted:Are we absolutely certain that Israel won't use nukes? I'm loving terrified that they will considering these statements Gaza is only 40km by 9km.
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Oct 8, 2023 17:35
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Willo567 posted:The U.S. would likely tell Israel not to use tactical nukes if they were stupid enough to consider it, correct? They will nuke you
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Oct 8, 2023 17:35
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:One man's "terrorist" is another man's freedom fighter. No, I'm pretty sure when you shoot into crowds of unarmed civilians you're a terrorist. But you do you I suppose
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Oct 8, 2023 17:35
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there will be no nukes, fucks sake
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Oct 8, 2023 17:36
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Can't discount the possibilities of micronukes in the water
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Oct 8, 2023 17:37
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 17:40
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zer0spunk posted:No, I'm pretty sure when you shoot into crowds of unarmed civilians you're a terrorist. But you do you I suppose I mean yeah obviously, I don't think anyone is disputing that. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 17:40
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ronya posted:drifting off topic, but the Chinese camps are really camps, with rigid control over the timing and occurrence of events in each individual's day and individual communication with outsiders. 1.3 million is "enough"; randomly disappearing family members suffices to hold the other 40 million in sufficient obedience. Are you really making a semantic argument about how to define "camp"? Palestinians live under Israeli sovereignty with generally no freedom of movement or political participation in Israel. That the buildings are more permanent or there's some level of internal organization doesn't address those fundamental things that make it internment. Even Nazi camps devolved some level of organization to inmates! This basic denial of human rights for a third of Israel's population is the context for everything else in that conflict and Israel shows approximately zero political will in changing this direction. The rest you can do a find replace for China/Israel. Israel's increasingly authoritarian government and political system, repression of occupied populations, and the lack of international response has accelerated settlement activities there.
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Oct 8, 2023 17:44
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zer0spunk posted:No, I'm pretty sure when you shoot into crowds of unarmed civilians you're a terrorist. Pretty sure Israeli forces do that already.
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Oct 8, 2023 17:45
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Pretty sure Israeli forces do that already. Constantly.
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Oct 8, 2023 17:48
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 17:51
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The Israeli minister of national security loving loves Baruch Goldstein.
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Oct 8, 2023 17:51
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Willo567 posted:Are we absolutely certain that Israel won't use nukes? I'm loving terrified that they will considering these statements Nuking Gaza would make them global pariahs so yeah probably not
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Oct 8, 2023 17:52
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So the takeaway to my "I don't think any unarmed civilians should get murdered" is "well if some happens then why not more" ok cool, normal and not totally devoid of any human empathy, gotcha. my bad for engaging e: it only now occurs to me that arguing on a fundamental thing like, murder is bad is pointless. i'm not going to be convinced that violence is justifiable just like someone who thinks it is won't either (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) zer0spunk fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 17:53
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I don't think they should either. My point is the rapidity with which the corporate press jumped on the word "terrorist" to describe anything Hamas related (but not to everything Israel does to oppress the Palestinians) is telling - but not surprising. When you're systematically oppressed and you're going up against a well armed and well funded military like Israel, sometimes the only option you have is what the intelligentsia calls "terrorism".
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Oct 8, 2023 17:57
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Xander77 posted:Turns out that if you keep murdering people, they will place you in a concentrated area and limit your ability to move freely. Pretending that that different states of Palestinians of Gaza, the Western Bank and Israel happened in a vacuum is a complete misrepresentation of historic fact. Yeah, there's a long history of colonialist and imperialist occupations dealing with troublesome insurgencies by herding the entire native population into confined areas that the occupier can easily seal off and confine with military force. The British and Spanish used these tactics over a century ago, concentrating the occupied population into confined camps in order to deprive insurgents of their ability to operate freely. That way, the insurgencies were forced into the open where they could be annihilated by the colonists' overwhelming conventional military superiority, while horrible conditions in the camp ground down the internees' will to resist. Once all organized resistance had been completely crushed, the locals could be released and allowed back to work for the occupiers' benefit. There's a few important differences between Gaza and the historical concentration camps, but that doesn't mean they're particularly more moral; it just means Israeli authorities have adapted and improved the old tactic to suit their particular needs, taking strategic inspiration from ghettos, bantustans, and other tactics of apartheid and ethnic cleansing. Xander77 posted:So the collective massacre of all Israe- The other primary condition would have to be convincing the Palestinian public that the main goal of the Israelis isn't stealing all their land and resources and killing as many of them as necessary to make that stick. Which is going to be a tough case to make, since that's a pretty accurate summary of Israeli policy toward Palestinians in the last six or seven decades, and they're not especially subtle about it. Hell, I'd go so far as to say that this is a more important condition. Why? For one thing, Israel has overwhelming military superiority over the Palestinians, and that wouldn't change just because of a peace deal. Even if they wanted to, the Palestinians couldn't kill all the Israelis. On the other hand, Israel is perfectly capable of killing all the Palestinians, and they've spent the last decade and a half demonstrating that with their genocidal policies toward Gaza. Palestinians in the West Bank aren't being oppressed as brutally and inhumanely, but they're still heavily oppressed. To the extent that conditions in the West Bank are better, it's because the West Bank is ruled by a collaborationist party that lost its political legitimacy a decade and a half ago, and has clung to power by relying more and more heavily on the assistance of the Israeli military in rooting out rival political factions who might otherwise threaten that party's power. Pook Good Mook posted:This is a great post and perfectly captures how I've been feeling. Side stepping the entire question of causation and right/wrong, the long term outcome is going to be a free hand to Israeli right wing parties and worse treatment going forward. Israel isn't Hamas' only enemy. There's also violent insurgent factions like Islamic Jihad that they have to contend with. Gaza has a ~50% unemployment rate and barely functional infrastructure. It doesn't have sufficient power or clean water, and its medical facilities teeter at the brink due to a combination of supply shortages and an endless influx of injuries inflicted by Israeli forces at the peaceful border protests. Foreign investment and humanitarian aid have dwindled due to Israeli interference and a growing sense that Israel is just going to blow up whatever gets built with the money anyway. Literally half the population of the Gaza Strip is age 18 or younger. And these conditions have been in place for literally fifteen entire years. More than half the population of Gaza doesn't even remember the days before the open-air prison. All of this has made for an extremely difficult domestic political situation, with a lot of angry starving young men struggling to feed their families under the conditions wrought by the extreme Israeli oppression that's been going on their entire lives. Hamas tries its best to help out, but there's not really much it can do for them given the extreme resource constraints and Israel's complete unwillingness to negotiate in good faith. As a result, it's not easy to maintain political dominance in Gaza, and it's even harder than that to maintain a monopoly on violence and keep other armed groups like Islamic Jihad under control. Hamas has to walk a tightrope between keeping all that discontent and violence restrained and keeping it pointed at someone that isn't them. In general, I think that when Americans and Western Europeans look at what other countries are doing for foreign policy, we tend not to really consider the impact that domestic politics can have on foreign policy. If something doesn't seem to make strategic sense on a foreign policy level, then it's often really a measure taken for the benefit of domestic politics. Our own politicians do stupid poo poo toward foreign countries for the sake of domestic posturing all the time. Sure, the consequences for stuff like this are a lot more serious when a small power does it...but it's precisely because they're so weak and put-upon that there's that much more domestic pressure to assert themselves through foreign posturing. Willo567 posted:Are we absolutely certain that Israel won't use nukes? I'm loving terrified that they will considering these statements No, there is absolutely no way in hell Israel would use nukes against Gaza, and absolutely no reason to think that they would. There is no way in hell that Israel is going to drop their policy of nuclear ambiguity in order to nuke the most densely populated city on the planet for the sake of striking back against an insurgency equipped exclusively with small arms and homemade bombs.
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Oct 8, 2023 18:01
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zer0spunk posted:So the takeaway to my "I don't think any unarmed civilians should get murdered" is "well if some happens then why not more" It shouldn't happen, but Israel has made it exceedingly clear it does not think the lives of Palestinian civilians matter in the least given that they regularly blow up apartment buildings, hospitals, news buildings, and so it is not particularly surprising that the other side in this conflict engages in similar atrocities. The pieces of poo poo responsible for murdering civilians at a rave should be held to account and part of that means the Israeli government should stop massacring and brutalizing Palestinian civilians. And probably have some actual accountability for its own when they, say, blow up four kids on a beach. also they probably shouldn't have a dude who celebrates a monster like Baruch Goldstein as their Minister of National Security TGLT fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 18:03
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hey experts, what does she mean by this? https://twitter.com/moonlit_misfit/status/1710824004351594667 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 8, 2023 18:24
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 18:26
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USA is sending their thoughts and prayers. https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/1711057505286045783
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Oct 8, 2023 18:30
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frajaq posted:hey experts, what does she mean by this? It's some Twitter nobody with barely any followers. Who cares? Why do we need to dissect the words of some random self-proclaimed "anarcho-feminist" posting a hot take that came across your feed?
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Oct 8, 2023 18:38
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ummel posted:USA is sending their thoughts and prayers. Hamas, you have the chance to do the funniest thing of the century.
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Oct 8, 2023 18:40
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Are you really making a semantic argument about how to define "camp"? Palestinians live under Israeli sovereignty with generally no freedom of movement or political participation in Israel. That the buildings are more permanent or there's some level of internal organization doesn't address those fundamental things that make it internment. This basic denial of human rights for a third of Israel's population is the context for everything else in that conflict and Israel shows approximately zero political will in changing this direction. Particularized control over activities and communication is obviously relevant to the security process, as is total control over law enforcement in the territory. It's not semantic! Urumqi does not need an Iron Dome. It does have a totalizing presence of the Chinese state in every sphere of life. The distinction is that post-disengagement, post-Oslo Israel, unlike China, has a notional commitment to Palestine as a self-governing entity (however illusory that status) and so refuses to govern in its place, which obviously precludes such fine-grained control over daily life in the Gaza Strip. I have an inkling that in longer-term this commitment will be much reduced, especially in the post-upcoming-war Gaza Strip. As the Nasserist moment fades ever further into the rearview mirror, the plausibility of Israel facing concerted action by its neighbouring states fades, and so the terror of being cut off from Europe fades, and with it the desire to achieve peace on terms acceptable to Western Europe. It has to, instead, prioritize the much more plausible of prospect of peace on terms acceptable to Cairo, Riyadh, Damascus, etc. (countries which, you may notice, do not exactly have principled objections to shooting large numbers of dissidents). Meanwhilst the new would-be superpower does not have a penchant for indulging nostalgia for Egyptian friendship treaties, but instead is vocally opposed to unilateral sanctions: if Beijing could bring Tehran, Riyadh, and Tel Aviv to the table for 1b1r, they very much would. In this scenario, regional politics would evolve toward a status quo akin to Southeast Asia today, where most countries in the region limit criticism of genocide or mass killings to criticism and advocate flexible and discreet bilateral engagement to tackle such problems; the approach fellow Muslim countries Bangladesh and Malaysia have taken to the Rohingya crisis and subsequent Myanmar coup is illustrative. Ultimately pan-Islamic solidarity no longer rings as clearly as it once did. Israeli cooperation with KSA and UAE on Houthi missile strikes is indicative, perhaps.
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Oct 8, 2023 18:41
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I think political violence is sometimes justified, but that this specific act of political violence was heinous, excessive and will likely prove enormously counterproductive to the Palestinian cause.
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Oct 8, 2023 18:53
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It's done more for their cause already than anything in decades. The world can't go any harder in supporting the genocide of the Palestinian people than it already does, it's not like Israel needs the help when they have all the power in this situation (figuratively and literally, since they've cut the power to the 2+ million people in the strip). But Israel has spent decades crafting a reputation of having an incredibly good military that cops all over the world want to emulate and now it's gonna be a lot harder to convince the settlers to help in their genocide because it's just a bit less safe. Edit: vv Not to say they can't support it harder, but that there's materially no difference. Israel has all the tools it needs to complete the genocide already, it does not need more aircraft or tanks or money to do so. Or at least, they won't meaningfully help. They could absolutely use more soldiers, but for one I don't think any nation is going to throw it's troops into the meatgrinder that is urban guerilla warfare, and for two fighting the Palestinians is already hella demoralizing for most Israeli, let alone people with no stake in the matter. You'd have to go around assembling the most sociopathic soldiers in the world, or just the cops from a major US city I guess. Zeron fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 19:05
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Oh Logan
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Oct 8, 2023 19:08
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Zeron posted:But Israel has spent decades crafting a reputation of having an incredibly good military that cops all over the world want to emulate and now it's gonna be a lot harder to convince the settlers to help in their genocide because it's just a bit less safe. Apparently a bunch of NYPD top brass were visiting Israel (I wonder what for) right when the attacks happened.
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Oct 8, 2023 19:11
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Zeron posted:the world can't go any harder in supporting the genocide of the Palestinian people than it already does I'm really not so sure about this, and I feel like we're about to find out the extent of this statement is a truly awful way.
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Oct 8, 2023 19:12
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What's up with Gaza's Egyptian border? Do they block refugees and aid to keep good relations with Israel?
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Oct 8, 2023 19:15
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Ograbme posted:What's up with Gaza's Egyptian border? Do they block refugees and aid to keep good relations with Israel? yes. there are famously smuggling tunnels but officially the egyptian government is in cahoots
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Oct 8, 2023 19:16
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ummel posted:I'm really not so sure about this, and I feel like we're about to find out the extent of this statement is a truly awful way. A slow genocide is still a genocide, and israel has been actively killing them for years with the tacit support of nearly the entire world. Contaminating all of their water, and pouring concrete into the remaining clean sources has the same end as shooting them, its just a lot easier for the rest of the world to ignore.
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Oct 8, 2023 19:21
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Ograbme posted:What's up with Gaza's Egyptian border? Do they block refugees and aid to keep good relations with Israel? Why do you think the Muslim Brotherhood won the first free election and then was violently overthrown by the military? The dictatorship in Egypt serves foreign powers. Saudi Arabia is more responsible than Israel and the US though.
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Oct 8, 2023 19:25
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Ograbme posted:What's up with Gaza's Egyptian border? Do they block refugees and aid to keep good relations with Israel? Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, so this Egyptian government absolutely loathes it even aside from anything having to do with Israel, and (like pretty much everyone else in the world) isn't particularly interested in making distinctions between the rulers of Gaza and the people living there.
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Oct 8, 2023 19:27
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Zeron posted:The world can't go any harder in supporting the genocide of the Palestinian people than it already does Yeah I'm not so sure, and I think we're about to find out whether that's actually the case.
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Oct 8, 2023 19:32
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Shooting a bunch of dreadlocked 20 year olds on mushrooms is not really the positive propaganda they might think it is I think the only human rights group not to say anything is the UN, which is meeting behind closed doors in 15 minutes on this and I'm sure will have the exact same condemnation statement soon enough
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Oct 8, 2023 19:44
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Germany has just spent 18 months on a journey of 'okay maybe we have to take defence seriously and maybe there is such a thing as a good war' and yesterday got a very strong push on public opinion towards Israel.
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Oct 8, 2023 19:51
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ummel posted:I'm really not so sure about this, and I feel like we're about to find out the extent of this statement is a truly awful way.
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Oct 8, 2023 19:55
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zer0spunk posted:Shooting a bunch of dreadlocked 20 year olds on mushrooms is not really the positive propaganda they might think it is What it is supposed to be is something Israel can't ignore. They can't keep slowly smothering Gaza and pretending like that's fine. To that goal specifically, of shattering the unacceptable status quo, it seems to have succeeded. The "strong" fascists in Israel look weak. Of course, the immediate change is going to be horrific for the people in Gaza, but things are changing at least. For the record I think the attack was clearly horrific and inhumane. Anyone interested in human rights should condemn it. Just like they should condemn all the civilian murders that Israel commits. Some people are saying it's not an atrocity because it's for a just cause, but that's a hosed up and cowardly way of feeling good about yourself. Just say you think atrocities can be justified if you think this is justified. Don't deny it's an atrocity.
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Oct 8, 2023 19:57
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Saudi was getting close to normalizing relations with Israel so Hamas acts up to undermine the deal and garner sympathy. Can’t really empathize with this one here. I’m more surprised how off guard Israel was taken by it.
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Oct 8, 2023 19:57
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ummel posted:USA is sending their thoughts and prayers. Maybe Israel will accidentally sink one of them
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Oct 8, 2023 20:01
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