ummel posted:

WaPo has a write up of the festival massacre with some videos attached (from before/during the attack).

Gift article/no paywall.

https://wapo.st/3PPI4XK

Captain Oblivious posted:

The point is that people in slow grinding no win situations that inevitably end in extermination probably aren't gonna make Rational Decisions (tm) my dude.


Like you get that right?

Recoome posted:

Maybe I’m just not seeing it but normally you’d get a stack of pro-Palestine stuff in the socialist circles in Australia but it’s complete radio silence right now - I’ve never seen that before and I’m not sure whether it’s because we’ve got our internal poo poo right now or because of the attacks on civilians.

evilmiera posted:

More likely than not, belatedly, it is probably down to the fog of war and not really knowing what is going on on the ground despite or possibly because of all the coverage.

Recoome posted:

Gee whiz maybe shooting up a music festival and parading the corpses of foreign nationals aren’t going to win, as they say, the hearts and minds of the international community.

i fly airplanes posted:

There are cell phones and internet coverage, and this is an area with journalists on both sides from all over the world to begin with. "Fog of war" is an outdated concept.

i fly airplanes posted:

It was like that when Russia invaded Ukraine—many genuinely believed that Russia would not invade, and that Ukraine/NATO were the bad guys. (Painting Ukraine as "neonazis" and that NATO was "aggressive")

The current leftist narrative is that Israel 'deserved it' from years of blockades and oppressing the Palestinians and this is 'resistance' in the name of Palestinian self determination.

i fly airplanes posted:

The current leftist narrative is that Israel 'deserved it' from years of blockades and oppressing the Palestinians and this is 'resistance' in the name of Palestinian self determination.

That narrative is already crumbling given information that this terrorist attack was coordinated on the anniversary of the Yom Kippur War, the support and coordination with Iran.

BougieBitch posted:

Like, this is the I/P thread, what we are talking about are other incidents that are part of that context but are so COMMONPLACE that no one even bothers to post them at the time they happen. The conversation only even takes place when something occurs that is so catastrophic that it makes it into international reporting. That's part of the problem, is the death toll for Palestinians increases every day and is treated as though it is natural or inevitable even when it literally happens from an IDF bomb or gun

Chillmatic posted:

100% the people saying these attacks are 'understandable' or deserved are the same feckless tankie fucklords that bitched about NATO aggression.

Collapsing Farts posted:

If the videos i'm seeing on the internet give an accurate picture, Gaza is getting obliterated right now and tons of missiles are flying across the nightskies of Israel too

I have never seen this conflict like this

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

It's impossible to justify what Hamas does within a western liberal framework because it doesn't operate within that framework. It's a totally different mindset from the average person reading this, you, a D&D poster on Something Awful. It's about sacrifice, vengeance to the enemy, wrath, and the personal honor of being able to keep firing as you're bleeding out from being shot by IDF troops as your name is repeated in the hearts of everyone inside your neighborhood or your refugee camp.

Civilized Fishbot posted:

The problem isn't that the decision is irrational, it's that it's intrinsically disgusting.

Do you get that, that when a normal, healthy person sees a truck full of men stripping a corpse naked and defiling it, the normal reaction is to say that it's very wrong and evil.

And in this thread, any expression of disgust toward it is met by "oh, you don't think Palestinians get to fight back?"

What happened to that woman wasn't fighting back, it was rapists and thrill-killers using the war as an opportunity to satisfy their fetishes, like you see in every war zone. Conflating the two only serves the most violent monsters in the IDF and Hamas.

Even the most heroically-motivated have evil people take advantage of them to do evil. Acknowledging and mourning the evil doesn't discredit the Palestinian cause unless you insist that they're actually the same thing.

Owling Howl posted:

Sure but that's a general issue. There's wars in Sudan and Ethiopia right now and Haiti has descended into warlordism and de facto civil war. No one cares. The norm is not news and doesn't get reported on.

Neurolimal posted:

I don't personally believe that Hamas made massacring a rave right on the border wall a major military objective; it seems like one of those things that would enrage an individual group. You bust out of the oppressive apartheid cage that has interred you for decades and immediately, right there, you see 20 year olds of various nationalities in stupid clothes taking E and dancing.

That doesn't make it good; the ravers were likely stupid more than malicious, and murdering civilians (even stupid ones) is unacceptable, but I don't personally factor it into the calculus of the struggle. I'd argue that the goal is in the seizure of vehicles, razing of police stations & bases, and to link up with the edge of the West Bank (going off the direction in which Hamas is making territorial gains). The grotesque murders coming from furious young men with guns lashing out against anyone that's been outside their cage.

I bring up military goals vs. individual actions because I feel like that's where the friction is coming from in the thread; Posters object to the civilian murders, some posters think they're denouncing armed struggle against Israel. Posters support armed struggle against Israel, some posters think they're supporting civilian murders. Maybe we should assume better of each other, be more clear, and less glib.

ummel posted:

For real. Very telling to see the typical twitter accounts that bent over backward saying Ukraine stands no chance in this fight and they should stop this senseless war and submit and save lives, now celebrating a 260+ civilian massacre as freedom fighting and totally worth it. In some defense for them, this festival news wasn't full out until today, but holy poo poo the mental gymnastics to get from A to B.

The Kingfish posted:

It was a rave for peace held on occupied territory?

Homeless Friend posted:

This is partly because such shock videos are served with the express purpose of garnering shock. They're political in purpose, some people are interested in this a community re-affirmation of evil as you say. Whereas some others don't feel the need to condemn every event of malice...

Plastic_Gargoyle posted:

Please elaborate as to how the people attending a rave were "stupid"

ummel posted:

For real. Very telling to see the typical twitter accounts that bent over backward saying Ukraine stands no chance in this fight and they should stop this senseless war and submit and save lives, now celebrating a 260+ civilian massacre as freedom fighting and totally worth it. In some defense for them, this festival news wasn't full out until today, but holy poo poo the mental gymnastics to get from A to B.

Yudo posted:

It is honorable to murder unarmed hippies?

The Kingfish posted:

It was a rave for peace held on occupied territory?

Zeron posted:

From what I could find, it was an international brazil-style festival held literally 3 miles from the border fence. And also no one attending was told where it would be held until the day of. I have..a lot of questions about the people who organized and held the rave. It almost certainly wasn't a planned target, to say the least.

Neurolimal posted:

I would not personally attend a rave taking place within a volcano.

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

I think people on the internet can sometimes have difficulty when others describe something without intending any endorsement (as if I would paraglide into a rave and start shooting people). But I think that's more like collective vengeance and one's steadfastness in that pursuit is honorable in this mindset. This kind of thing is about taking one side and being loyal until victory. The mindset we're used to is all about choices, like choosing good and bad. That's not operating here.

A big flaming stink posted:

I think there is also a unconscious bias in this thread that presume Hamas's attack is ultimately a fruitless endeavor.

Unless I have misinterpreted things, their assault is still actively ongoing,

Neurolimal posted:

I don't personally believe that Hamas made massacring a rave right on the border wall a major military objective; it seems like one of those things that would enrage an individual group. You bust out of the oppressive apartheid cage that has interred you for decades and immediately, right there, you see 20 year olds of various nationalities in stupid clothes taking E and dancing.

Yudo posted:

That part of Israel isn't particularly dangerous.

Civilized Fishbot posted:

There's a difference between what you're describing - being so constantly confronted by atrocities that you have to accept them just to move on - and what I'm describing, which is responding to the normal healthy disgust reaction with "oh, so you just want Palestinians to lay down and die?"

The Kingfish posted:

And this is the propaganda value of the recent attacks. If you travel to occupied territory, you might be killed and your body paraded around as a trophy.

Tuna-Fish posted:

This doesn't explain the facts we know. The assault on the rave weren't just a bunch of people breaking through the wall, it was a co-ordinated strike with people surrounding the place using paragliders to prevent escape. This specific attack needed to be planned. They chose this target.

The Wapo Article posted:

The attendees had not been given the exact location of the festival until the day of the party. “The event will take place in a powerful natural location full of trees, stunning in its beauty and organized for your convenience, about an hour and a quarter south of Tel Aviv,” ticket buyers were told in the lead-up.

The Kingfish posted:

And this is the propaganda value of the recent attacks. If you travel to occupied territory, you might be killed and your body paraded around as a trophy.

Recoome posted:

Oh jeez, please don’t justify murdering civilians

Civilized Fishbot posted:

The problem isn't that the decision is irrational, it's that it's intrinsically disgusting.

Do you get that, that when a normal, healthy person sees a truck full of men stripping a corpse naked and defiling it, the normal reaction is to say that it's very wrong and evil.

And in this thread, any expression of disgust toward it is met by "oh, you don't think Palestinians get to fight back?"

What happened to that woman wasn't fighting back, it was rapists and thrill-killers using the war as an opportunity to satisfy their fetishes, like you see in every war zone. Conflating the two only serves the most violent monsters in the IDF and Hamas.

Even the most heroically-motivated have evil people take advantage of them to do evil. It's one of the oldest problems in managing an army, it was a predictable part of this assault just like it's a predictable part tof the IDF counterstrike. Acknowledging and mourning the evil doesn't discredit the Palestinian cause unless you insist that they're actually the same thing.

Rigged Death Trap posted:

Captain Oblivious posted:

Sounds like the kind of thing that the position with all the power could have prevented for the better part of a century, but instead chose to make literally inevitable.

Shame that.

steinrokkan posted:

Just because they didn't advertise the location doesn't mean it wasn't known to a bunch of people involved in organizing it, and a bunch of officials who had to approve it. The question is whether Hamas had been actively looking for information on public gatherings that may have been planned in the area, and somehow found out about this.