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studio mujahideen posted:Turning off water and electricity to over two million people is one of the most horrific things you can possibly do, and if you response is to go to this weird tit for tat poo poo, you need to take a step back and recalibrate. You are witnessing an active genocide, for fucks sake. Yeah, this exactly. Turning off water and electricity to two million people in what is effectively a prison and now active war zone, could very easily kill more people in an hour, each day, than how many died at the rave massacre that so many goons seem primarily focused on. It is quite literally a crime against humanity.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:23
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But no Europeans were harmed, so nobody cares apparently. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 9, 2023 20:26
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Delthalaz posted:Has this been confirmed? I've seen folks on Twitter saying that there is some footage circulating of helicopters that's actually from Arma 3. No, it hasn't been confirmed as far as I know. If I see a reliable source on the matter, I will remember to post it here. studio mujahideen posted:Turning off water and electricity to over two million people is one of the most horrific things you can possibly do, and if you response is to go to this weird tit for tat poo poo, you need to take a step back and recalibrate. You are witnessing an active genocide, for fucks sake. Your sanctimony is misplaced. My point was that "tit for tat poo poo" is nonsense. Morality isn't a currency, which was implicit in the post I was responding to.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:27
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Israel considers the entire population of Gaza as being Hamas militants and backers. That's probably their justification.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:27
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Could someone show me how to calculate how many 9/11s-per-capita turning off water for 2 million people counts as? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 9, 2023 20:27
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Willo567 posted:It absolutely digusts me that no one is calling them out on it. Israel has done this a few times before and the U.N. has condemned it. I think the U.N. hasn't called it out this time yet because it was a relatively recent announcement. I'm sure they aren't going to say that the 4th or 5th time is okay now.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:29
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Israel has done this a few times before and the U.N. has condemned it. Perhaps the U.N. could do something more substantial than tut-tut at Israel?
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Oct 9, 2023 20:31
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:A call for national unity is different than a unity government in a parliamentary system. A unity government implies that the opposition would be taking control of some executive branch functions from the current majority.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:31
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FlapYoJacks posted:Perhaps the U.N. could do something more substantial than tut-tut at Israel? They can't do poo poo against Russia, what could they do against Israel?
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Oct 9, 2023 20:33
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Barrel Cactaur posted:I didn't say Israel didn't start it, just both parties have no motivation to end it. Its a blood feud, everyone has an excuse for their particular atrocity. Israel would have said Hamas was an existential threat, yet their actions lock Hamas into power and further radicalize their supporters. Hamas got elected because Israel takes a maximalist approach to its expropriation of land and has made sure Gaza has had no economy for decades. The very root cause is the non viability of a one state solution due to the inevitable result of colonizing a place that already has people in it, resulting in a dynamic that by its very nature encourages the worst kinds of greed. Its in a very real sense the legacy of the world wars. both sides actually have strong incentives to end it the sunlight between what Israel want and what Palestine want mostly just comes down to boundary disputes
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Oct 9, 2023 20:36
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FlapYoJacks posted:Perhaps the U.N. could do something more substantial than tut-tut at Israel? What actions could they take? The US will block anything more substantial than milquetoast condemnations and vague calls for a return to dialogue. At some sort of ideal minimum they would be sending in peacekeeping/monitoring forces to keep the power, water, food and medicine flowing but I'm sure my country's delegation wouldn't go for that at all.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:37
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Looks like Hezbollah has gotten directly involved: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-says-its-troops-killed-gunmen-who-infiltrated-lebanon-2023-10-09/quote:Lebanese armed group Hezbollah fired a salvo of rockets onto northern Israel on Monday in response to at least four of its members being killed in Israeli shelling on Lebanon, two security sources told Reuters.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:37
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Bholder posted:They can't do poo poo against Russia, what could they do against Israel? They will be very angry with them, and they will write a letter telling them how angry they are
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Oct 9, 2023 20:37
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FlapYoJacks posted:Perhaps the U.N. could do something more substantial than tut-tut at Israel? The U.N. is pretty infamous for mostly just tut-tuting and being unable to do much else unless the host country wants them to. It's been a running joke about the organization since the 70's.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:39
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https://twitter.com/carmeldangor/status/1711311306957955316 IDF arming the Kahanists so they can pogrom Jenin.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:42
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I believe someone had said a couple pages back that Israel had already ended running water in Gaza some time ago, and that Israel wasn't the sole or primary energy source either.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:43
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Kagrenak posted:What actions could they take? The US will block anything more substantial than milquetoast condemnations and vague calls for a return to dialogue. At some sort of ideal minimum they would be sending in peacekeeping/monitoring forces to keep the power, water, food and medicine flowing but I'm sure my country's delegation wouldn't go for that at all. How about the UN give Palestine more money/aid while condemning Israel and sending peace-keeping troops to ensure Israel stops committing genocide? There is plenty they can do, but they don't want to do.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:45
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Kalit posted:Looks like Hezbollah has gotten directly involved: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-says-its-troops-killed-gunmen-who-infiltrated-lebanon-2023-10-09/ So does this mean Hezbollah will definitely open up a front against Israel?
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Oct 9, 2023 20:45
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Discendo Vox posted:I believe someone had said a couple pages back that Israel had already ended running water in Gaza some time ago, and that Israel wasn't the sole or primary energy source either. None of this matches up with what I've seen or read, so it would be helpful if you sourced claims like this.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:46
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studio mujahideen posted:None of this matches up with what I've seen or read, so it would be helpful if you sourced claims like this. From here, it looks like Gaza gets about 10% of its water from Israel. https://www.barrons.com/news/israel-orders-immediate-cut-to-gaza-water-supply-minister-3e1cac1f
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Oct 9, 2023 20:48
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FlapYoJacks posted:How about the UN give Palestine more money/aid while condemning Israel and sending peace-keeping troops to ensure Israel stops committing genocide? They literally can't send a peacekeeping mission because of the US' veto (and honestly probably the UK's France's as well). You'd have to erode the vast bipartisan support in the US for Israeli war crimes first. They do send aid and probably will increase the amount (although it still won't be nearly enough) and I'm sure they'll issue more condemnations soon for all the good that'll do, too.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:49
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:From here, it looks like Gaza gets about 10% of its water from Israel. That water is important, as Israel has spent years contaminating the rest of the Palestinian water supply, and refusing to let them transfer clean water from the West Bank, or build new clean water infrastructure. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/ quote:In Gaza, some 90-95 per cent of the water supply is contaminated and unfit for human consumption. Israel does not allow water to be transferred from the West Bank to Gaza, and Gaza’s only fresh water resource, the Coastal Aquifer, is insufficient for the needs of the population and is being increasingly depleted by over-extraction and contaminated by sewage and seawater infiltration.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:56
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Typo posted:both sides actually have strong incentives to end it That's really not it. It looks that way on the surface level, but every time someone digs down into what Israelis and Palestinians actually mean when they define the peace they want they are worlds apart.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:57
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studio mujahideen posted:None of this matches up with what I've seen or read, so it would be helpful if you sourced claims like this. Entirely fair, I was remembering this: Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Those are the confirmed death figures as of today. It's also not 0 water and electricity. It's none from Israel (which is about 45% of the electricity in Gaza) and sadly there has been a lack of access to running water in Gaza for a long time. So it seems very unlikely that thousands of people have died from the electricity and water situation in the last 24 hours. Not for lack of trying, though. The airstrikes are most definitely going to be the thing that raises the casualties in Gaza quickly.
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Oct 9, 2023 20:58
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Kagrenak posted:They literally can't send a peacekeeping mission because of the US' veto (and honestly probably the UK's France's as well). You'd have to erode the vast bipartisan support in the US for Israeli war crimes first. That is irrelevant, United Nations has no mandate to send peacekeepers to a place where they are not welcomed by the local government(s). That would be an entirely different kind of mission, peace enforcement (which in this case would mean invading Israel and Gaza somehow). E.g. UNIFIL mission in southern Lebanon is accepted by Israeli and Lebanese governments. Either of them could tell the peacekeepers to gently caress off any moment, but currently the mission has continued for 45 years.
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Oct 9, 2023 21:00
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Delthalaz posted:Has this been confirmed? I've seen folks on Twitter saying that there is some footage circulating of helicopters that's actually from Arma 3. The top news agencies have switched to Arma Reforger.
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Oct 9, 2023 21:02
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https://twitter.com/netanyahu/status/1711465610507341996 
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Oct 9, 2023 21:04
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FlapYoJacks posted:How about the UN give Palestine more money/aid while condemning Israel and sending peace-keeping troops to ensure Israel stops committing genocide? The U.N. can only give money or troops that its member states contribute. Most states just give directly to Palestine. The U.S. is still the single largest source of aid for Palestine and just gives directly. Saudi Arabia stopped contributing entirely recently and various members of the E.U. are the next biggest contributors. The U.S. and/or E.U. will keep giving them money, but they definitely aren't going to invade Israel to patrol the border there on an essentially indefinite commitment.
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Oct 9, 2023 21:04
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Discendo Vox posted:I believe someone had said a couple pages back that Israel had already ended running water in Gaza some time ago, and that Israel wasn't the sole or primary energy source either. Gaza has only one power plant, which has the capacity to service less than half of Gaza's power needs. That plant is powered by fuel which has to be imported from other countries (and thus has to pass through Israeli or Egyptian border crossings). On top of that, Gaza's economic situation, combined with the impact of sanctions and some tax collection disputes with Israel and the PA, mean that Hamas can't consistently afford to pay for imported fuel or imported power, and is unable to build up a significant stockpile of fuel to protect against the risk of Israel cutting off imports. As such, Israel can easily plunge Gaza into a power crisis at any time even without directly attacking the plant (which Israel has done at least once before). While Gaza does contain water sources, the water situation is almost as bad. The infrastructure has been ravaged by endless Israeli strikes and an inability to import parts and resources needed to keep the system running, and a good chunk of it goes down with the regular power outages too. These problems don't just affect water extraction, they also affect water treatment, leading to sewage leaks and contamination of water sources. And even on the rare good days when Gaza's wastewater plants are all up and running, they don't have the capacity to meet Gaza's current needs.
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Oct 9, 2023 21:09
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Netanyahu has told Biden that a ground operation is inevitable, to "restore deterrence"
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Oct 9, 2023 21:11
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:From here, it looks like Gaza gets about 10% of its water from Israel. To expand on this, the primary sources of water to the Gaza Strip I believe are: 1) Groundwater, principally supplied by Israel to the Gaza Strip 2) Desalination of brackish groundwater, both at the residential and community-levels 3) Desalination of seawater To people saying that Gaza only gets 10% of its water from Israel and thus the cuts aren't as significant/drastic, are falling for Israel-friendly media reporting where such claims are being made. For starters: 1) The groundwater supply from Israel, is absolutely true. However, there's some interesting background on this. The Gaza Strip *has* to pay Israel for said water, because they are not allowed to drill their own wells without Israel's approval, and Israel installed significantly deeper wells many years ago on their side of the border with Gaza that allows them to pump the non-brackish water out of the aquifer for their own use, of which they sell a small amount back to Gaza. As a result of said pumping at a deeper level, and at high volumes, they've allowed significant seawater intrusion to occur, which has made the upper alluvial units brackish. This is why most of Gaza's existing wells, which are far shallower than Israel's, can only withdraw brackish water at this point. 2) A number of households have home-RO units installed, which treat the brackish water that Gaza is allowed to pump via their wells. Additionally, the UN had local groundwater treatment facilities for local communities that also treats the brackish water to potable standards. The problem with these options is that household RO units depend on having a decently-high, sustained incoming pressure to be able to overcome the headless in the RO process. That type of pressure typically requires either high elevated storage, or booster pump facilities. Even with high elevated storage, in this area, you will still likely need booster pump facilities in order to fill /maintain the storage. Guess what booster pumps require? Power, which Israel cut off. Community-wide desalination treatment is likely using RO also, though likely with options for backwashing the filters and side stream treatment of the brackish solids/waste. It would be very power-intensive, so likely out of service also; they might have backup generators for situations where power loss occurs, but it'd be surprising if those could go more than a few days without refueling, and something tells me Israel isn't in any rush to provide fuel. Oh wait, that's exactly what they already confirmed! https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/no-electricity-no-food-no-water-israel-order-complete-seige-on-gaza-4464314 The other problem is that with the blockade going on for several years, Israel has essentially hosed Gaza's ability to stock spare parts/equipment/etc., so even if these facilities were running in great shape, with great maintenance, there'd be a limit to how long they could go before certain consumable components, such as pump wear rings, impellers, RO membranes, etc., start to fail when pushed to 100% use constantly. Something tells me that maintenance hasn't been great for some time... 3) Desalination of seawater at the large municipal/industrial level doesn't have the power needs of pumping brackish groundwater, but it still needs to pump seawater through the treatment trains, and then out to the system. So all of the issues with the community-side groundwater desalination mentioned above, are still applicable here. There might be some greater power redundancy options (more generators, more fuel stored on-site, etc.), but it'd still be somewhat limited in how long it could maintain supply. So ultimately, yes, Gaza might "only" get 10% of its water directly from Israel, but that doesn't speak to the much greater picture and context, which is that by cutting off power, cutting off fuel deliveries, etc., Israel is effectively cutting off 100% of water in the near-future. Canned Sunshine fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 21:12
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Alchenar posted:That's really not it. It looks that way on the surface level, but every time someone digs down into what Israelis and Palestinians actually mean when they define the peace they want they are worlds apart. there's other issues to be sure: the right of return and whether Israel is a "Jewish state" are two important ones but if the boundary issue (of which the Israeli settlements are the most important part of) is resolved the other ones could be either resolved or at least sidelined
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Oct 9, 2023 21:13
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Biden should nope the gently caress out of that one. I doubt he will though.
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Oct 9, 2023 21:21
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Is Egypt going to provide diesel and food if the humanitarian situation gets bad enough?
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Oct 9, 2023 21:26
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Marenghi posted:Israel has cut off water and power to Gaza. And bombed it's only operational hospital this event seems like a big deal so I think the media will document everything they can in excruciating detail
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Oct 9, 2023 21:28
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GABA ghoul posted:Is Egypt going to provide diesel and food if the humanitarian situation gets bad enough? Based on some of the past discussions in the thread, I doubt it. I assume at most, they'll start publicly decrying the social impacts and try to put global pressure on Israel to allow some basic essentials in.
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Oct 9, 2023 21:28
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Specifically calling out the US as complicit, which of course it is. Otherwise gross, but expected, messaging from Netanyahu
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Oct 9, 2023 21:43
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GABA ghoul posted:Is Egypt going to provide diesel and food if the humanitarian situation gets bad enough? Nobody (state actors) are going to truly help Palestine. They never have. They're convenient fodder for all of the nearby states to prop up against the evil jews. It's hosed up, but you should know that they have no true allies. Even Iran's 'help' planning this attack, is really just using them for their own benefit.
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Oct 9, 2023 21:45
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GABA ghoul posted:Is Egypt going to provide diesel and food if the humanitarian situation gets bad enough? probably at least a nominal amount so they can say they are doing -something- to appease their own people I doubt they are gonna admit a large number of refugees tho: neigboring Arab states have treated the Palestanians like poo poo since the 1960s
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Oct 9, 2023 21:47
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I did not intend to imply that 10% of their water was not significant. Someone asked how much Israel supplies and I was curious so I looked it up. Considering the massive destabilization all over the place in Gaza yes that cut (and the power cut) is going to have a big impact and further the human catastrophe taking place there.
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Oct 9, 2023 21:50
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