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Jimlit posted:Have the rapes even been confirmed or is this just more racist bullshit? Of course they have been. Are you even following the news? Violence begets violence. Hamas knew that these actions would provoke a extreme response from Israel. There's no two ways about it. They don't really care about what happen to the civilians in Gaza. If they did they wouldn't have indiscriminately killed a bunch of Civilians. Once again people here seem to care more about the crimes committed by Israel then the crimes commited by Hamas. All violence is bad. All of this is unjustified. You can't simply decide to pick a side and say "Doing X is ok because Y did Z." That's extremely childish and fundamentally a destructive way to view the world that will end up killing all of humanity. Beyond that, blaming the ravers and saying they deserved to be murdered and rape for going to a rave in Israel on the grounds that is an apartheid state or because of how it treats Palestinians is loving insane. There is not a single nation or region on this planet that you can't find moral qualms with. America? Practically an apartheid state full of racists and murderers. Europe? A ethnocentric region who is actively trying to kill refugees from other nations, historically the source of thousands of pogroms against jews and other forms of ethnic cleansing. The birthplace of Facism. Australia? They run concentration camps in Papau New Guinea. Asia? Ethnocentric nations that hate immigrants and each other. Central & South America? Countries inhabited by the descendants of Spaniards who killed and raped all the natives. By that loving logic you can't ever go to a party anywhere or ever have fun. By that logic just loving kill yourself there isn't a moral nation on the planet you can live in. We should all be dead serious and never have fun ever in our lives. There is not a moral nation on earth. Period. There is not a moral person on earth. Period. BUUNNI posted:The IDF is doing way worse things to larger numbers of people in the past and currently so if your concern is innocent victims then I’m not sure the handwringing about Hamas is going to lead to less blood being spilled. And that is not ok. Two wrongs do not make a right. Sorry! Reacting to violence with more violence only escalates the violence and leads to the inevitable conclusion of genocide. We want to deescelate the situation. Not escalate it. Israel is amassing 100,000 troops on the Border of Gaza. They will enter Gaza and raze it to the ground. They will permanently annex the region. Those are the consequences of escalation. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) nogoodpeople fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 14:18
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kiminewt posted:I've regained my composure and wandered back into the thread. It probably didn't have any particular strategic reason or tactical reason beyond being revenge for some or all of these:  I don't want to be flippant here, but I think you're vastly underestimating how rare "a bunch of soldiers go house to house shooting indiscriminately" actually is in the Israel/Palestine conflict. You don't see it as much these days since the various sides rarely send ground troops into each other's territories for anything more than brief raids, but I imagine there's something about being penned into an open-air prison and bombed incessantly that helps keep the memories of decades-old massacres quite fresh. This doesn't justify it, of course. Ideally, nobody in the conflict would be going door-to-door rounding up and shooting civilians. However, this sort of brutality has unfortunately long been a feature of the Israel/Palestine conflict, on both sides, with so many massacres and reprisal killings over the years that it doesn't make much sense to look at any particular act as a separate individual act. Each one is just another depressing thread in this century-long tapestry of brutal massacres.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:21
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BUUNNI posted:The IDF is doing way worse things to larger numbers of people in the past and currently so if your concern is innocent victims then I’m not sure the handwringing about Hamas is going to lead to less blood being spilled. Why not? Are they not responsible somehow? How on earth is pointing out that Hamas explicitly targeted some of the most innocent and least responsible people for the whole conflict with maximum violence then only to share it on their social media as some sort of victory?
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Oct 10, 2023 14:22
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Jimlit posted:Have the rapes even been confirmed or is this just more racist bullshit? An austrian newspaper had a report about calls coming from palestinian numbers to missing persons relatives saying things like "We are Hamas, you israelis have beautiful daughters" with screams heard in the background. There're also loads of heinous and suggestive videos going over telegram, but it'll take a while for everything to come out and get confirmed as fake or real.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:25
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nogoodpeople posted:Of course they have been. Are you even following the news? Could you then post such a thing? E:Oh we're in slow mode, so if not you then than someone else.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:25
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Why not? Are they not responsible somehow? How on earth is pointing out that Hamas explicitly targeted some of the most innocent and least responsible people for the whole conflict with maximum violence then only to share it on their social media as some sort of victory? It's just weird to keep giving it the same weight as a much larger scale, even more indiscriminate brutality going on. Israel is targeting some of the most innocent and least responsible people for the whole conflict with maximum violence and parading it on social media while hollering for victory over their enemies as well. And they are much better at it than Hamas is. While being celebrated by our own elected governments! Palestinians don't even have the capacity to elect an alternative to Hamas, as they have had the right to elections taken away from them. And now over a million children are being collectively punished, bombed to rubble while being called terrorists and having their deaths cheered on.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:29
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It's very likely that rapes happened, because it's a war with soldiers. If I'm not mistaken, there's also at least one IDF commander (general? going off the casualties from Hamas' raids every IDF soldier has an inflated rank) who's notorious for believing that it's ok to rape non-Jews. Luckily the IDF never gets far enough in a ground offensive for that to matter much.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:30
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nogoodpeople posted:And that is not ok. Two wrongs do not make a right. Sorry! Reacting to violence with more violence only escalates the violence and leads to the inevitable conclusion of genocide. You're right. The IDF should not be massing troops at the border and, instead of escalating the situation by bombing innocent civilians with no connection to this attack and massacring them in the hundreds to thousands, they should instead negotiate with Hamas to deescalate the situation. The ball's in Israel's court.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:32
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nogoodpeople posted:
Good post. I don't get why it's so hard to understand that it's possible for both Israel and the West bare responsibility for the conflict and at the same time Hamas is still responsible for targeting innocent civilians that essentially have nothing to with it at all. nogoodpeople posted:Israel is amassing 100,000 troops on the Border of Gaza. They will enter Gaza and raze it to the ground. They will permanently annex the region. I fully believe Israel is going to destroy Hamas. They're going to invade Gaza and won't stop until their are gone. The next year is going to be ugly. 
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Oct 10, 2023 14:33
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nogoodpeople posted:All violence is bad. All of this is unjustified. You can't simply decide to pick a side and say "Doing X is ok because Y did Z." That's extremely childish and fundamentally a destructive way to view the world that will end up killing all of humanity. nogoodpeople posted:Two wrongs do not make a right. Sorry! Reacting to violence with more violence only escalates the violence and leads to the inevitable conclusion of genocide. These seem like sensible statements. But aren't you directly contradicting yourself here? nogoodpeople posted:They don't really care about what happen to the civilians in Gaza. If they did they wouldn't have indiscriminately killed a bunch of Civilians. nogoodpeople posted:Israel is amassing 100,000 troops on the Border of Gaza. They will enter Gaza and raze it to the ground. They will permanently annex the region. It sure does look to me like you're applying this unevenly. You're insisting that Hamas' actions are unjustified and that Hamas shouldn't react to violence with more violence. But you're only applying that to Hamas' actions. If you intended the same statements to also cover Israel's actions, then you're not really doing a good job of making it clear. You're condemning Hamas for responding to violence with violence, but I don't see any condemnation here for Israel responding to violence with violence. If Hamas killing Israeli civilians means that they don't care about the civilians of Gaza, does Israel killing Palestinian civilians also mean that they don't care about the civilians of Israel? You're laying out lofty universal principles, but seem to be applying them very inconsistently, and the self-contradictions stand out pretty hard in your posts.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:34
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Why not? Are they not responsible somehow? How on earth is pointing out that Hamas explicitly targeted some of the most innocent and least responsible people for the whole conflict with maximum violence then only to share it on their social media as some sort of victory? https://twitter.com/netanyahu/status/1711699807058767989
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Oct 10, 2023 14:36
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Main actions on the docket for Hamas so far, apparently: - Ashkelon is getting bombed in 30 minutes or so (they gave out the warning to evacuate an hour and thirty ago) - Ben-Gurion airport is going to be bombed - Tel-Aviv ditto - Yesterday Hamas delivered an ultimatum; if Israel performs a bombing run without warning civilians in advance they will publicly execute a PoW. Remains to be seen if they stick to this, seeing as Israel is going full bloodlust anyways (they might not have enough PoW's to keep up with the rage bombing)
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Oct 10, 2023 14:40
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Mischievous Mink posted:It's just weird to keep giving it the same weight as a much larger scale, even more indiscriminate brutality going on. Israel is targeting some of the most innocent and least responsible people for the whole conflict with maximum violence and parading it on social media while hollering for victory over their enemies as well. And they are much better at it than Hamas is. While being celebrated by our own elected governments! Palestinians don't even have the capacity to elect an alternative to Hamas, as they have had the right to elections taken away from them. And now over a million children are being collectively punished, bombed to rubble while being called terrorists and having their deaths cheered on. Who says I am giving this incident anymore importance over any other horrific thing that happens in war? The point here it doesn't matter what Israel does or does do but what Hamas did because simply the idea they're compelled to go on mass shooting of dumb twenty-something popping molly at a rave or abducting Jacob's Grandmother at her Kibbutz is absolutely loving psychotic. Yes, I've seen the videos of Gaza strip being bombed too.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:43
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TGLT posted:You're right. The IDF should not be massing troops at the border and, instead of escalating the situation by bombing innocent civilians with no connection to this attack and massacring them in the hundreds to thousands, they should instead negotiate with Hamas to deescalate the situation. The ball's in Israel's court. They absolutely shouldn't. But they will because they believe that this is a existential conflict for the state of Israel and protection for the Jews that live there. Given the history of the Jewish people it's understandable if viewed from that lens. Equally the Palestinians see there conflict as existential. But i'll remind you that the Palestinian people are one of many groups of Arab descent in the general Levant region and Israel is the only country in the region that is majority non-arabic. It is a nation surrounded by countries it considers to be enemies. Palestine's areas meanwhile border severalother muslim countries including several ones that are ethnically arabic ones. The land now categorized as Israel has changed hands multiple times over the past 2000 years and been governed by many different entities. Israel's actions against the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank are inexcusable. Hamas actions against the Israeli population in the border region of Gaza are inexcusable as well. Ideally we should be seeking a way to de-escalate the situation. But I fear that the indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians during this invasion has made that unviable. The Israeli people just as the Palestinian people; want blood. And they will have it.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:44
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Who says I am giving this incident anymore importance over any other horrific thing that happens in war? The point here it doesn't matter what Israel does or does do but what Hamas did because simply the idea they're compelled to go on mass shooting of dumb twenty-something popping molly at a rave or abducting Jacob's Grandmother at her Kibbutz is absolutely loving psychotic. Israel actually has a ton to do with Hamas and what they are like in 2023.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:45
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Mass graves recently unearthed at Kibbutz Kfar Aza, included 40 infants and babies that were shot or beheaded. Video doesn't show anything graphic, but still horrifying. The town only had a population of about 745. https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1711697093151056355 The U.N. also says that there are now 187,000 people internally displaced in Gaza as they flee major cities and areas around Hamas buildings that are being bombed. https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1711740709529686203 Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 14:51
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Mischievous Mink posted:Israel actually has a ton to do with Hamas and what they are like in 2023. They do, I mentioned that earlier. The United States is also responsible them getting control of the Palestinians government granted it was largely Bush Jr. and the GOPs doing.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:53
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 14:54
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nogoodpeople posted:They absolutely shouldn't. But they will because they believe that this is a existential conflict for the state of Israel and protection for the Jews that live there. Given the history of the Jewish people it's understandable if viewed from that lens. There really is no point continuing any discussion with anyone who thinks along these lines in 2023 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 14:56
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Spice World War II posted:There really is no point continuing any discussion with anyone who thinks along these lines in 2023 Yes, how dare I try to analyze a situation from both sides  . And you wonder why the world has gone to the shitter. People are incapable of viewing and analyzing more than one point of view in a conflict. It's the same situation in the Russia-Ukraine war.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:58
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Spice World War II posted:There really is no point continuing any discussion with anyone who thinks along these lines in 2023 Reg date October 9, 2023 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 14:59
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Same. They could have easily have chosen to pick military targets but instead choose civilians at rave? History is full of oppressed minorities and many of them got their freedom without resorting to Columbine-esq. shootings. probably because one tend to take less casualties killing ravers than soldiers
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Oct 10, 2023 15:00
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nogoodpeople posted:They absolutely shouldn't. But they will because they believe that this is a existential conflict for the state of Israel and protection for the Jews that live there. Given the history of the Jewish people it's understandable if viewed from that lens. You are expecting the Palestinians to find within themselves the wherewithal to not resort to indiscriminate violence while at the same time taking Israel's use of the same as inevitable. It doesn't really matter how much leaning into this would help the Palestinians in the short term, the fact remains that you are accepting/normalizing the subjugator-subjugated relationship, and are getting well-deserved pushback, if only for that alone.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:01
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nogoodpeople posted:The Israeli people just as the Palestinian people; want blood. And they will have it. The gently caress is this corny, wannabe profound bullshit? The Palestinians have wanted to be treated as human beings and not kept in an open air prison, you absolute mad man. The Palestinians don't "want blood", what the actual gently caress.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:02
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For what it's worth, the 'changed hands' meme is a lot less relevant in light of the fact that Palestinians are extremely likely to be descendents of Judeans who converted to Islam rather than partake in the rebellions against Rome/refuse to convert afterwards. They aren't carpetbaggers, they just intermarried with arabic groups. Their claim is just as strong as any mizrahim jew. E: it also makes the whole goal of Israel darkly ironic; to create a 'safe haven for jews' they've violently subjugated the children of ancient jews. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 15:05
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Aramis posted:You are expecting the Palestinians to find within themselves the wherewithal to not resort to indiscriminate violence while at the same time taking Israel's use of the same as inevitable. It doesn't really matter how much leaning into this would help the Palestinians in the short term, the fact remains that you are accepting/normalizing the subjugator-subjugated relationship, and are getting well-deserved pushback, if only for that alone. The vast vast majority of Palestinians aren't resorting to indiscriminate violence. Even other actively violent groups have never hit close to a 1,000 civilians in a day before. It is basically just Hamas, but people keep conflating Hamas with "the Palestinian people," which is definitely not the case. Hamas doesn't even exist in the West Bank.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:07
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Brucolac posted:Reg date October 9, 2023 and has only posted in this thread, at that
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Oct 10, 2023 15:08
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frytechnician posted:The gently caress is this corny, wannabe profound bullshit? The Palestinians have wanted to be treated as human beings and not kept in an open air prison, you absolute mad man. The Palestinians don't "want blood", what the actual gently caress. Its just old "oh the human nature! the cycle of violence!" bullshit so we can forget that one side is an occupation force with a modern army and the other is the occupied and violently oppressed people under their boot
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Oct 10, 2023 15:09
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The vast vast majority of Palestinians aren't resorting to indiscriminate violence. Even other actively violent groups have never hit close to a 1,000 civilians in a day before. It is basically just Hamas, but people keep conflating Hamas with "the Palestinian people," which is definitely not the case. Hamas doesn't even exist in the West Bank. The IDF has repeatedly killed over 1,000 civilians in a day before.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:09
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Does anyone have a comprehensive and digestible podcast or video that describes the Israel/Palestine conflict up to modern times?
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Oct 10, 2023 15:10
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nogoodpeople posted:Yes, how dare I try to analyze a situation from both sides
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Oct 10, 2023 15:10
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Please just sandbag the guy who registered yesterday specifically to post in this thread with braindead bullshit and batman quotes. You do not in fact have to respond to people who clearly arguing in bad faith. Just let him scream into the void. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 15:10
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kolby posted:Are you saying that Hamas just had a few bad apples and hopefully they'll train their soldiers better in the future? I can't explain why it seems odd to you, but it's the reality of war, especially with volunteer armies. When you send men out with weapons to do violence, it's very difficult to get them to only do the violence you want them to do, and not whatever violence they think is necessary or they think they'd enjoy.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:10
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Mass graves recently unearthed at Kibbutz Kfar Aza, included 40 infants and babies that were shot or beheaded. This is guaranteed to end with the total destruction of Gaza now. Any other outcome is pure fantasy at this point.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:10
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frytechnician posted:The gently caress is this corny, wannabe profound bullshit? The Palestinians have wanted to be treated as human beings and not kept in an open air prison, you absolute mad man. The Palestinians don't "want blood", what the actual gently caress. Specifically the Palestinian and the Israeli leaders. Hamas lead Gaza and Netanyahu and co lead Israel. I'm sure a good amount of both populations also desire blood. If they didn't there wouldn't be this kind of conflict. You seem to think there's a thing such as free will. That doesn't exist. There is only action and reaction. Simple science.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:15
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Who says I am giving this incident anymore importance over any other horrific thing that happens in war? The point here it doesn't matter what Israel does or does do but what Hamas did because simply the idea they're compelled to go on mass shooting of dumb twenty-something popping molly at a rave or abducting Jacob's Grandmother at her Kibbutz is absolutely loving psychotic. Yeah, what kind of psychos would go through a residential area kicking down doors and shooting anyone inside? Now, in something that will surely be completely and totally unrelated to that question, let's review a collection of articles from Israel's 2008 invasion of Gaza: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/4290553/Gaza-Palestinian-family-mourns-48-dead.html quote:Gaza: Palestinian family mourns 48 dead https://archive.ph/QCdRU quote:Israeli soldiers admit to deliberate killing of Gaza civilians https://ghostarchive.org/archive/PMasv quote:Israel invaded Gaza at the end of 2008 in a bid to halt rocket attacks from the territory it ceded in 2005. It says it focused on military targets controlled by Hamas, the Palestinian militant group, and bitterly countered a 2009 United Nations report that stated civilians had been deliberately targeted. I really don't want to sound flippant here, but I feel like you might be coming at this from a place of ignorance, because atrocities are all over the news right now and getting you stirred up, but you don't have enough knowledge about the conflict in general to be able to really put those atrocities in context alongside all the atrocities that don't make the front pages of Western papers.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:16
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I can't explain why it seems odd to you, but it's the reality of war, especially with volunteer armies. When you send men out with weapons to do violence, it's very difficult to get them to only do the violence you want them to do, and not whatever violence they think is necessary or they think they'd enjoy. lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 15:17
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FlapYoJacks posted:The IDF has repeatedly killed over 1,000 civilians in a day before. Please post several of these many examples. This past Sunday was the deadliest 24-hour period in Gaza in the last two decades and the death toll was 298. There isn't a breakdown of how many were civilians, but even if you were extremely generous and said 100%, then they haven't even hit 1/3 of that amount in a day in the last two decades. Israel does so many things that you can criticize that there is no reason to make things up.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:19
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nogoodpeople posted:Specifically the Palestinian and the Israeli leaders. Hamas lead Gaza and Netanyahu and co lead Israel. I think Israel should hire a PR firm or maybe call on their international allies to apply pressure and de-accelerate apartheid. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 15:19
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Sundance Shot posted:Please just sandbag the guy who registered yesterday specifically to post in this thread with braindead bullshit and batman quotes. You do not in fact have to respond to people who clearly arguing in bad faith. Just let him scream into the void. If I respond to them then you don't have to see my other posts for 10 minutes. You should be grateful.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:21
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