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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The vast vast majority of Palestinians aren't resorting to indiscriminate violence. Even other actively violent groups have never hit close to a 1,000 civilians in a day before. It is basically just Hamas, but people keep conflating Hamas with "the Palestinian people," which is definitely not the case. Hamas doesn't even exist in the West Bank. While I agree with this, people advocating for / treating as inevitable the IDF performing collective punishment on the Palestinians as a whole are also operating under that conflation and their position still doesn't hold water under that light. Arguing that point with the poster I was replying to invites moving the discussion towards whether or not Hamas represents the people of Gaza, which is irrelevant to how lopsided the conflict is and who has the most agency over the matter: Israel. Aramis fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 15:24
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Please post several of these many examples. You keep using their official death toll like they have the time to be counting every body while they're still being bombed and trying their best to do basic triage and it makes no sense to me. Entire blocks have been levelled dude.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:28
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Mischievous Mink posted:You keep using their official death toll like they have the time to be counting every body while they're still being bombed and trying their best to do basic triage and it makes no sense to me. Entire blocks have been levelled dude. Which do you think is more likely? - Gaza has been undercounting their casualties by at least 70% for decades and nobody has ever been able to provide an estimate or casualty count that is even 1/3 of the amount that a Something Awful poster said happened all the time. or - Someone on SA said something dumb without thinking about it or verifying it?
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Oct 10, 2023 15:33
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gj on arguing the point down to merely hundreds of civilians killed in a day instead of a thousand (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 15:34
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Verisimilidude posted:Does anyone have a comprehensive and digestible podcast or video that describes the Israel/Palestine conflict up to modern times? This is free for the next week- it spends less time on post 1970s period however. https://www.americanprestigepod.com/p/a-history-of-modern-palestine-w-rashid
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Oct 10, 2023 15:35
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Which do you think is more likely? Sorry, I was thinking injuries: 
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Oct 10, 2023 15:39
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Casualties is counting both deaths and injuries.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:40
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Which do you think is more likely? Have you seen the conditions they're operating under? This sounds very plausible to me, I couldn't imagine how hard it is doing that work. Unimaginable horror. I'm really confused by your confidence. In what world are they able to completely clear a single big apartment building and have found all survivors and dead, let alone dozens, in such little time? While still being barraged and assaulted, with no electricity, no water.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:40
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 15:43
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Herstory Begins Now posted:gj on arguing the point down to merely hundreds of civilians killed in a day instead of a thousand If your entire argument is based on the number of deaths, but you are off by 600%, then it kind of defeats the point. I know that everyone gets emotional and has assumed priors when talking about this issue, but everyone has to be operating at least relatively near factual reality to have a discussion about it. Things are bad enough all around that just vibes posting and making stuff up is both unnecessary and a waste of time. FlapYoJacks posted:Sorry, I was thinking injuries: Thank you. This is really interesting and illustrates the point you were trying to make, but with accurate information.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:44
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FlapYoJacks posted:Sorry, I was thinking injuries: The majority of the thousands of casualties inflicted by Israel every year are also women and children, btw.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:52
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Thank you. This is really interesting and illustrates the point you were trying to make, but with accurate information. You have to keep in mind that someone who has their lodgings blown up, food and water taken away, has no access to healthcare, and dies as a direct result of all that is not even counted as an injury in those statistics. The notion of "accurate information" is incredibly shaky when it comes to harm caused here, and is not much better than "vibes" IMO.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:55
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Reposting this again because it got lost in the mix: What are some good charities operating in Palestine that people can donate to right now? I know that lots have had funds frozen because of draconian anti-Palestinian style legislation, so it would be good to know which channels are actually converting donations into support on the ground (when the Israeli bloodlust has been sated and groups are allowed back in, at least).
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Oct 10, 2023 15:55
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e: nm
Private Speech fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 15:55
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BUUNNI posted:The majority of the thousands of casualties inflicted by Israel every year are also women and children, btw. The spike in 2018 was also in response to a peaceful protest, the March of Return. And as people have said, it's undoubtedly undercounting. MeinPanzer posted:Reposting this again because it got lost in the mix: I set up donations to middle east children's alliance, palestine children's relief fund, and UNRWA. If other people have reccs please share! foutre fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 15:57
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RIP ZEEZ
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 15:57
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nogoodpeople posted:Israel's actions against the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank are inexcusable. Hamas actions against the Israeli population in the border region of Gaza are inexcusable as well. If that's the case, then what are these? They sure look like you're making excuses for Israel's behavior. nogoodpeople posted:They absolutely shouldn't. But they will because they believe that this is a existential conflict for the state of Israel and protection for the Jews that live there. Given the history of the Jewish people it's understandable if viewed from that lens. You keep saying that both sides are in the wrong and that neither side can justify this sort of behavior, and then immediately follow it up by heaping blame exclusively on Hamas or citing justifications for Israel's behavior. Mischievous Mink posted:Have you seen the conditions they're operating under? This sounds very plausible to me, I couldn't imagine how hard it is doing that work. Unimaginable horror. I'm really confused by your confidence. In what world are they able to completely clear a single big apartment building and have found all survivors and dead, let alone dozens, in such little time? While still being barraged and assaulted, with no electricity, no water. That's true right now, but in general the death counts in Gaza do tend to be a bit lower than you'd think. Partially because the civilian population there has gotten a lot of practice at finding shelter and fleeing dangerous areas, and partially because Israel actively works to ensure that the result of their actions is a bunch of wounded homeless people slowly dying of starvation and sickness over the next few months rather than a collection of bloody dead bodies in a pile of rubble all at once. Israel does tend to fire warning shots or give other warnings before striking major civilian infrastructure, giving families an opportunity to evacuate if they're quick and stay ready to go at all times. Of course, that also tends to make a joke of the supposed military justifications for those strikes. Excuses like "we blew up that apartment building because a couple of militants ran inside" are pretty shoddy in the first place, but they're fundamentally incompatible with "we gave the people inside the building a 15-minute warning to evacuate before we leveled the entire building". It only really makes sense as an intentional tactic of collective punishment, either as a general campaign to destroy shelter and infrastructure and force families into the streets with no possessions and minimal resources, or as a campaign to punish civilians for not taking up arms against militants in the area. And of course, there's the fact that a pile of dead bodies strewn amongst the rubble all at once attracts reporters' cameras, while homeless people dying one by one of sickness and exposure amongst the rubble of their destroyed homes tends to escape the media's notice.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:58
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MeinPanzer posted:Reposting this again because it got lost in the mix: Red Crescent, Middle East Children’s Alliance, Palestine Children’s Relief Fund, and UNICEF all have the best ratings on charity navigator and aren't affiliated with Hamas, so you can support them financially with no issue if you live in the E.U., U.S., Australia, or Canada.
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Oct 10, 2023 15:58
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MeinPanzer posted:Reposting this again because it got lost in the mix:
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Oct 10, 2023 15:59
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Who says I am giving this incident anymore importance over any other horrific thing that happens in war? The point here it doesn't matter what Israel does or does do but what Hamas did because simply the idea they're compelled to go on mass shooting of dumb twenty-something popping molly at a rave or abducting Jacob's Grandmother at her Kibbutz is absolutely loving psychotic. Cutting off power to Gaza, ceasing deliveries of what small flow of potable water can be reliably depended on, preventing food and fuel from entering, I would say that all of these are much larger "psychotic issues" as it relates to impacts on humans and suffering, but you don't seem to be applying quite the same focus as the rave or grandmother hostage-taking. None of these things are good! But the horrific actions at the rave massacred a couple of hundred of what I would call innocent individuals, and abducting grandmothers is never good; Israel's actions in response have directly resulted in the suffering of hundreds of thousands now, and the short- and long-term starvation and death of likely thousands more due to the basic services that Israel cut off. So when you get enraged thinking about the rave massacre, which should definitely be considered a warcrime, maybe also speak to the "psychotic" crimes against humanity that Israel is currently engaging in against the Gaza Strip. Edit: I need more coffee before I get emotional and post. Canned Sunshine fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 16:07
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 16:07
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foutre posted:I set up donations to middle east children's alliance, palestine children's relief fund, and UNRWA. If other people have reccs please share! mannerup posted:Palestine Children's Relief Fund Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Red Crescent, Middle East Children’s Alliance, Palestine Children’s Relief Fund, and UNICEF all have the best ratings on charity navigator and aren't affiliated with Hamas, so you can support them financially with no issue if you live in the E.U., U.S., Australia, or Canada. ummel posted:MSF is on the ground currently and have operated there for a while, IIRC. But I don't know if you can specifically donate to Palestine/Gaza related operations only. I only see a general donation. Perfect--thank you! Going to make a donation tonight.
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Oct 10, 2023 16:23
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Hamas told the residents of Ashkelon to evacuate by 5pm. At 5pm, they launched a heavy rocket attack and there are reports of Hamas navy marines landing on the beach. https://twitter.com/HarrisonKrank/status/1711766584237146296 fuctifino fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 16:31
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https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/10/middleeast/israel-beeri-bodies-found-idf-intl-hnk/index.html This is going to be a hard topic of the day. There's already competing information out there. Seems like 100+ dead isn't just "babies" like some twitter accounts are claiming, but a mix of the population of the village (adults, kids and elderly, etc). Also, the twitter footage is horrifying again, so take care. The legit OSINT accounts are all aghast.
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Oct 10, 2023 16:33
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fuctifino posted:Hamas told the residents of Ashkelon to evacuate by 5pm. At 5pm, they launched a heavy rocket attack and there are reports of Hamas navy marines landing on the beach. Why are they giving warnings now?
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Oct 10, 2023 16:36
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nogoodpeople posted:Beyond that, blaming the ravers and saying they deserved to be murdered and rape for going to a rave in Israel on the grounds that is an apartheid state or because of how it treats Palestinians is loving insane. They're not like for like comparisons. It was a rave right outside an open air concentration camp. I'm not condoning the rave massacre but to say it's the equivalent of having rave anywhere in Europe is incorrect. It would be more akin to having a rave near a beach on the Mediterranean with washed up dead refugees. Or close to one of the actual Nazi concentration camps in Europe. It's gauche at best. Brucolac posted:Reg date October 9, 2023 Hmm, seems this guy has an agenda behind wanting to minimize what Israel has done and is doing. Shaocaholica posted:Why are they giving warnings now? Maybe they're learning which tactics work. Calling in attacks was key to the Provisional IRAs campaign in Northern Ireland. Hitting infrastructure damages the enemy, killing innocent civilians in the process can hurt popular support. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 16:36
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Both sides of this conflict suck, let gods favoured win and forever enjoy the holy land~ inshallah (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 16:38
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Shaocaholica posted:Why are they giving warnings now? According to AJ, Hamas was surprised about how big the backlash was to their initial attack and is trying to do damage control and break the perception that they are indiscriminately targeting civilians. They are concerned that the backlash may have galvanized people to send more aid to Israel and given Israel permission to go even farther in its retaliation.
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Oct 10, 2023 16:39
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We're not targeting civilians! *bombs random street full of nothing but civilians*
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Oct 10, 2023 16:41
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Marenghi posted:
I would be kinda amazed if this hasn't happened
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Oct 10, 2023 16:41
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:According to AJ, Hamas was surprised about how big the backlash was to their initial attack and is trying to do damage control and break the perception that they are indiscriminately targeting civilians. They are concerned that the backlash may have galvanized people to send more aid to Israel and given Israel permission to go even farther in its retaliation. Can you post this article or where you read this on Al-Jazeera? I can't tell which story is saying this from headlines.
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Oct 10, 2023 16:42
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 16:45
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It’s both sidesism because Palestine is not a functional nation state. They are the victims of a slow rolling genocide. They have no meaningful international supporters to appeal to. They do not have the option or imperative to obey international law that their vastly superior oppressors ignore without consequence. They do not operate on level ethical ground.
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Oct 10, 2023 16:52
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 16:55
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The problem with accusations of "both siderisms" is that people are twisting themselves in knots looking for any excuses that would justify shooting kids at a rave, or shooting people in their homes, or committing rape/sexual assault, or any other atrocities. It isn't both siderisms to say that both sides have engaged in immoral and terrible acts. There doesn't need to be " what Hamas did is bad BUT...".
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Oct 10, 2023 16:57
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mannerup posted:didn't realize being a non-state actor gives you impunity to commit atrocities on civilians, thank you for the clarification You in 1986: The African National Congress should simply stop their blatant terrorist actions against the innocent Afrikaners living near black townships if they want the moral superiority over the apartheid government. You in 1831: It is absolutely immoral for Nat Turner to have killed all those people. His supporters and the slave holders are both very evil and he should turn himself in immediately.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:02
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 17:08
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fool of sound posted:You in 1986: The African National Congress should simply stop their blatant terrorist actions against the innocent Afrikaners living near black townships if they want the moral superiority over the apartheid government. By this theory of non state actors would ISIL be considered non state actors? What about the Lord's Resistance Army? Saying some organisation is a non state actor doesn't make them all equal or make all their actions justified.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:09
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fool of sound posted:It’s both sidesism because Palestine is not a functional nation state. They are the victims of a slow rolling genocide. They have no meaningful international supporters to appeal to. They do not have the option or imperative to obey international law that their vastly superior oppressors ignore without consequence. They do not operate on level ethical ground. To be fair, that statement is technically correct. Aggressively punishing every single instance of war crimes and crimes against humanity should, within that context, lead to a lot more punishment being levied against Israel over long periods of time and could eventually lead to peace. It is, however, laughably naïve to entertain the idea that the international community is capable of arriving at such a neutral enforcement consensus, let alone enforce it systematically and consistently on day 1, which would be required for it to work.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:11
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kolby posted:Are you saying that Hamas just had a few bad apples and hopefully they'll train their soldiers better in the future? The United States military, organized by the wealthiest country on the planet and giving several times the funding of the next several militaries below it, can't keep its soldiers from raping its own servicewomen, let alone anyone else.
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Oct 10, 2023 17:12
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