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Richard is not, to my knowledge, a bullshitter https://twitter.com/richimedhurst/status/1711826899796718071?t=pJW-UHOQraZdnRHMw511MA&s=19 
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Oct 10, 2023 20:38
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FlapYoJacks posted:The IDF is literally saying they have no information confirming allegations that ‘Hamas beheaded babies’ That same random Twitter account is also claiming that the 260 people who died at the music festival were all fake and planted by the IDF. Not sure that is the most reliable source.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:41
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Nancy posted:There's plenty of reporting on problems with the US veto re: the UN & Palestine if you want to find out more. I'm aware of many resolutions calling for Isreal to create a solution that have failed, I'm unaware of any in which the Palestinians provided a alternative option to force Isreal to give them what they want. Could you point to one that I could review which expresses some form of action that could be taken that is different? Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There were some previous attempts to get neighboring Arab countries to take in Palestinian refugees. Jordan let in a few, but didn't want to take many. What a weird way to summarize the events preceding Black September.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:42
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That same random Twitter account is also claiming that the 260 people who died at the music festival were all fake and planted by the IDF. Not sure that is the most reliable source. Which one? There are three separate accounts there, the top one of which is a blue-checked source (granted, Twitter), but that disputes a talking point that you have inserted into quite a few posts in this thread now. You might want to refrain from using that talking point until you can actually prove that the claim has been undeniably substantiated.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:43
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That same random Twitter account is also claiming that the 260 people who died at the music festival were all fake and planted by the IDF. Not sure that is the most reliable source. Newsweek article on her potentially being alive.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:44
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That same random Twitter account is also claiming that the 260 people who died at the music festival were all fake and planted by the IDF. Not sure that is the most reliable source. The article from Bild quotes the woman's mother as saying that they have word she's alive in Gaza. Obviously there are a number of scenarios in which this could be incorrect, and of course nothing excuses her treatment, even if she is alive, but you don't have to take Warren Commission Test Skull's word for it.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:44
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nessin posted:I'm aware of many resolutions calling for Isreal to create a solution that have failed, I'm unaware of any in which the Palestinians provided an alternative option to force Isreal to give them what they want. what are some of your thoughts on what alternative options look like?
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Oct 10, 2023 20:45
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Nice to see the rare celebrity not baying for blood: https://twitter.com/georgetakei/status/1711486755591873011 Delthalaz fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 20:47
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smug n stuff posted:The article from Bild quotes the woman's mother as saying that they have word she's alive in Gaza. Obviously there are a number of scenarios in which this could be incorrect, and of course nothing excuses her treatment, even if she is alive, but you don't have to take Warren Commission Test Skull's word for it. Bild is a DailyMail-tier rag tho
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Oct 10, 2023 20:49
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Reading here and elsewhere and trying to process all the events of the last several days. Personally I have long felt that Israel should just pack up and leave the area completely as they are obviously not welcome and it wasn't their land to begin with. It made perfect sense to me that Palestinians would militarily oppose the occupation of land that belongs to them. But I don't understand how what happened this weekend advances that objective. At all. After all of this it makes me feel like I've drastically misunderstood what this entire conflict was really about. To that end I'm surprised at a lot of the takes I've seen here, to the point where I'd like to ask a question: is there anything Hamas could ever do that would cause you to reconsider supporting their cause?
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Oct 10, 2023 20:50
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SourKraut posted:Which one? There are three separate accounts there, the top one of which is a blue-checked source (granted, Twitter), but that disputes a talking point that you have inserted into quite a few posts in this thread now. https://twitter.com/conzmoleman/status/1711810511145173124
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Oct 10, 2023 20:51
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Sir Fontlebottom posted:Reading here and elsewhere and trying to process all the events of the last several days. Personally I have long felt that Israel should just pack up and leave the area completely as they are obviously not welcome and it wasn't their land to begin with. It made perfect sense to me that Palestinians would militarily oppose the occupation of land that belongs to them. But I don't understand how what happened this weekend advances that objective. At all. Leave and go where?
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Oct 10, 2023 20:53
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Sir Fontlebottom posted:Personally I have long felt that Israel should just pack up and leave the area completely as they are obviously not welcome and it wasn't their land to begin with. Leave for where?
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Oct 10, 2023 20:53
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studio mujahideen posted:https://twitter.com/IsraelRadar_com/status/1711816261947048126 Man these statements just keep getting grimmer and grimmer - I caught some of the images of the aftermath of the earlier bombardments but have had to tune out of social media for time being for mental health reasons.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:55
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Sir Fontlebottom posted:I'd like to ask a question: is there anything Hamas could ever do that would cause you to reconsider supporting their cause? Hamas is not Palestine, and I speak for myself only in that i support the cause of Palestine. Hamas can align with that in a lot of cases, but what has happened has been an atrocious act of wanton violence. That changes nothing about how i feel generally about the reality that the Palestinians as a whole should resist genocide. Hamas and Palestine are not the same thing, and it's statements like these that feel like "gotcha" questions because they deliberately conflate the two that really make me upset.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:56
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I mean, I was real worried that the woman who's limbs were bent like a pretzel with a visible hole in her temple was dead, but if Hamas says she's sleeping it off in a hospital, I guess that's a relief. Still holding out hope for that Thai guest worker who was decapitated with garden hoe - maybe he'll make a recovery too?
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Oct 10, 2023 20:56
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Failed Imagineer posted:Bild is a DailyMail-tier rag tho Sure. At the top of the article is a video recording of a middle-aged woman who I think is claiming to be Shani Louk's mother, saying that she's alive in Gaza, although I don't speak German so I can't say for certain. Again - there could be any number of reasons to disbelieve that this is the case. But there is a primary source behind all the ideologically motivated middlemen journalists/twitter posters.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:56
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Sir Fontlebottom posted:is there anything Hamas could ever do that would cause you to reconsider supporting their cause? Hamas themselves? Absolutely. They've done it! I don't think any reasonable person could support Hamas at this point. Their cause, which is to say "the liberation of Palestine from a brutal occupation"? No. No matter what is done in the name of that cause, the cause itself will always be just, and I will continue to support it. This is not, of course, to say I would support anything done in the name of that cause. At the same time, I also support Israel's right to live in safety and security in accordance with their internationally-recognized boundaries, and no amount of Bibi being a lovely fascist, or the IDF doing atrocities of its own, will make me waver on that point either. Yet again, that doesn't justify any specific action taken in accordance with that goal. Israelis and Palestinians, and everyone by right of being a human being, deserves peace, safety and freedom. There is nothing a people can do which would eliminate those rights from themselves.
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Oct 10, 2023 20:58
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aBagorn posted:Hamas is not Palestine, and I speak for myself only in that i support the cause of Palestine. Hamas can align with that in a lot of cases, but what has happened has been an atrocious act of wanton violence. That changes nothing about how i feel generally about the reality that the Palestinians as a whole should resist genocide. Whether unfortunate or not, Hamas is the current government/leadership of the Gaza Strip, in no small part due to prior Israeli government support. So…
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Oct 10, 2023 20:59
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smug n stuff posted:Sure. At the top of the article is a video recording of a middle-aged woman who I think is claiming to be Shani Louk's mother, saying that she's alive in Gaza, although I don't speak German so I can't say for certain. In the same way that the National Enquirer is a primary source for the latest whereabouts of Batboy and Elvis (living on the Moon possibly?)
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Oct 10, 2023 20:59
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The verified and documented atrocities thus far have already given Israel all the metaphorical ammo it needs to do whatever the hell it wants. A little more or less isn't going to change anything about what's going to happen.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:00
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Sir Fontlebottom posted:Reading here and elsewhere and trying to process all the events of the last several days. Personally I have long felt that Israel should just pack up and leave the area completely as they are obviously not welcome and it wasn't their land to begin with. It made perfect sense to me that Palestinians would militarily oppose the occupation of land that belongs to them. But I don't understand how what happened this weekend advances that objective. At all. Us Jews have a long history of not being welcomed in an area, even being told we should pack up and leave on a few occasions (this has lead to a few events some people have even heard of). Of course having a long history of not being welcomed....anywhere....kind of got some Jews thinking about a place where they would be welcomed and not asked to pack up and leave but we are seeing how that all turned out now.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:00
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Slantedfloors posted:I mean, I was real worried that the woman who's limbs were bent like a pretzel with a visible hole in her temple was dead, but if Hamas says she's sleeping it off in a hospital, I guess that's a relief. Her own mother says she has received evidence that her daughter is still alive https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/my-daughter-is-still-alive-says-mother-of-german-woman-feared-dead-in-gaza-49G2QxbcH30MX9BgBYx2N4 quote:The mother of a German-Jewish woman feared dead in the Hamas terror attacks has told German press that her daughter, Shani, may still be alive.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:01
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nessin posted:Have the Palestinians ever made an attempt to find an alternative solution to their current situation? For example, petition the UN to revoke the iniitial Oslo accords and take over the territory as a UN protectorate, then bring in a peacekeeping force to kick out Hamas and hold new fair elections? Or for that matter Egypt wants Hamas gone, have they asked the Egyptians to do the same? What about restoring relations (since apparently everything pre-2006 is irrelevant given how some people here talk) with the other Arab nations to agree to accept the non-terrorist population as refugees? It's hard to imagine Isreal blocking people from leaving if some other country is actually willing to take them. For that matter have the Palestinians done anything to show they can be good non-terrorist housing neighbors? Seems weird that people put the entire onus on Isreal to somehow solve this problem while ignoring that Palestine, pre and post Hamas, has refused to even attempt to explore any other solution including pursuing the one compromise they got in place with the initial Oslo Accords. That's a long list of options, all of them either completely unreasonable or deeply problematic. Let's respond to them in order.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:03
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Failed Imagineer posted:In the same way that the National Enquirer is a primary source for the latest whereabouts of Batboy and Elvis (living on the Moon possibly?) By "primary source" I am referring to the video of Shani Louk's mother (or at least someone who is claiming to be her mother, who looks exactly the same as the woman of the same name who is claiming to be her mother in an interview with CNN https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/09/israel-music-festival-shani-louk-mother-vpx.cnn), not the Bild article itself. I should have been more clear - sorry about that. And again - definitely possible that she's been contacted by someone who a) is lying about being from hamas or b) is hamas, but is lying to her about her daughter being alive
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Oct 10, 2023 21:07
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nessin posted:I'm aware of many resolutions calling for Isreal to create a solution that have failed, I'm unaware of any in which the Palestinians provided a alternative option to force Isreal to give them what they want. Could you point to one that I could review which expresses some form of action that could be taken that is different? In 2011, Palestine formally applied for UN membership, attempting to force Israel's hand into accepting a two-state solution. This seems to me like a clear-cut example of what you are asking for. The matter was referred to the security council, which referred it to a committee which concluded that the proposal should be downgraded to bringing in Palestine as an "non-member observer state". That passed the general assembly, but it's mostly meaningless, and you can easily argue that the SC effectively vetoed the application. Aramis fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 21:07
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not about any post or poster in particular, but: I think it's worth reminding this thread that over the last 6 months blueticks as an indicator have devolved from "Twitter's dedicated team have verified this poster as authentic/significant [though not necessarily truthful in their posts]" to "I am paying 8 bucks a month for this signifier of authenticity". They're now worth less than dogshit, unless they have a "legacy" check - even then I think requires a browser extension to distinguish. Not to mention that, despite the horrendous actions of the Israeli government in reality, people love to make poo poo up about it. Even when there was a halfway functional verification system on Twitter, even the supposedly more scrupulous would readily retweet some bullshit when it fit a narrative they agreed with. It's even easier to fall into this trap now.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:10
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Leave for where? Literally anywhere else in the world would probably be safer and less hostile than the current location. I know it can't possibly be that easy, but good lord anything would be easier than what is currently going on. PT6A posted:Their cause, which is to say "the liberation of Palestine from a brutal occupation"? No. No matter what is done in the name of that cause, the cause itself will always be just, and I will continue to support it. I can understand that. For me it feels like the lines between the cause and its methods have blurred to the point of unrecognizability. What happened this weekend cannot possibly lead to the liberation of Palestine or justice for her people. Can it? Madkal posted:Us Jews have a long history of not being welcomed in an area, even being told we should pack up and leave on a few occasions (this has lead to a few events some people have even heard of). Of course having a long history of not being welcomed....anywhere....kind of got some Jews thinking about a place where they would be welcomed and not asked to pack up and leave but we are seeing how that all turned out now. Given the history, to put it mildly, I completely understand and support a place for Jews to live in freedom and complete safety. But I have never understand why that bit of land was specifically chosen for this. It's a rough neighborhood, to use a poor analogy. Maybe this is getting lost in the woods and we're far past this mattering. I'm just at a loss at what I've seen recently and am struggling to make sense of how I previously understood the conflict as "an oppressed people fighting back against their oppressors". Everything I've seen and read has been nightmarishly cruel, in particular the "victory laps" being taken by attackers.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:12
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That same random Twitter account is also claiming that the 260 people who died at the music festival were all fake and planted by the IDF. Not sure that is the most reliable source. there are no twitter accounts, twitter is dead, but ppl are posting links to the new site as if it were twitter, others trusting the sources out of habit, doubly so if they paid money for a check mark its not remote a reliable news source anymore, it's reaganbook mixed with stormfront, need to get that thru yr head
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Oct 10, 2023 21:13
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fool of sound posted:To expand on this, let me compare it to the invasion of Ukraine. I acknowledge that both Russia and Ukraine have committed war crimes during the conflict, and have take actions that are unambiguously horrible. Ukraine's Azov fighters are in many ways comparable to Hamas. Even in that conflict, where Ukraine is a function, organized national state with massive international backing and something that could reasonably be called technological parity, I think that Ukraine has more permissive moral ground to work with than Russia does, because it a historically imperially oppressed state resisting and invasion and occupation. Now imagine how much more permissive the moral standards for Palestine must be, given their dramatically more dire situation. I understand why you compare Hamas to Azov. Both Hamas and Azov have committed atrocities. But the "compare Hamas to Azov" analogy is flawed because of an important difference between the two. Hamas is a dominant military power within Gaza. I've heard of rival Palestinian groups in other parts of Israel, but my understanding is that those groups are currently not as strong as Hamas in Gaza. Azov is not a dominant military power in Ukraine. Azov is not Ukraine's whole military; they are a tiny fraction of it. Ukraine's elected government and army has power over Azov, and can force Azovs to obey the law, or imprison them if they do not obey. So, comparing Hamas to Azov very subtly implies that Ukraine is dominated by Azov Nazis. That's exactly what Vladimir Putin wants the world to think, and his disinformation network leans hard into that propaganda. It's a lie that Putin repeats every time he talks about "denazifying" Ukraine. Ukraine does not have more permissive moral ground to work with than Russia. Not ideologically, and not as a practical matter, since Ukraine can't risk upsetting its allies.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:13
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Main Paineframe posted:That's a long list of options, all of them either completely unreasonable or deeply problematic. Let's respond to them in order. Have they tried to get cooperation for this kind of plan instead of forcing Israel to make concessions? quote:
First, what does Israel have to do with it? The Palestinian Authority would be the one relinquishing control now. Israel might have a problem with that and could certainly impact such a deal, but it's not a given and Israel itself isn't the one that would hand it over. Furthermore do you really think Israel cares so much about the physical land Gaza occupies and people on it that they'd reject a deal where all the problems associated with it go away and are in someone elses hands? quote:
I know the futility of trying to argue these points on this forum, so I won't even try. quote:
Someone yesterday posted a graph of attacks that broke a ceasefire in 2008 and it wasn't just Israel. There are also numerous records of attacks out of Gaza since 2005, launched by the organization that also holds the majority of the Gaza Palestinian Authority government seats. Do you honestly believe what you've written? And even if you do, do you honestly and sincerely believe that the Israel's have no justification to see it as otherwise? [ quote:*] pursuing the one compromise they got in place with the initial Oslo Accords: The Oslo Accords were abandoned by Israel two and a half decades ago, largely due to Rabin's assassination and the rise of a prime minister who'd opposed Oslo and did everything he could to block and sabotage its implementation. You might be familiar with that prime minister, a man named Benjamin Netanyahu. It's not really clear how the Palestinians can "pursue" Oslo when it's Israel that's failing to meet its obligations there. Moreover, the massive expansion of settlements since the 90s means that Oslo is now completely unworkable as a deal - instead of preparing for the withdrawal they agreed to, they spent decades expanding the settlements in hopes of laying claim to far more land than they'd been allocated in Oslo. Yes, but there was a two year gap there where the PLO went back and did nothing. Worse, they continue to stoke the aggressive ferver of their people instead of trying to work to a rapid resolution of the 5 year plan from the Oslo Accords. Then there was the 2000 Camp David Accords, where the Palestinians outright acknowledged they were not interested in good faith discussions to try and restore the Oslo plan. Edit: studio mujahideen posted:It's spelled Israel, man. Completely fair criticism and I didn't realize I was swapping the letters. nessin fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 21:16
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Leave for where? Western Europe, the US, Canada. An estimated 15% of Israeli settlers are from the U.S. originally. Netanyahu is from Philly.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:18
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It's spelled Israel, man. studio mujahideen fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 21:22
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Son of Sorrow posted:I don't believe the ridiculous baby beheading story nor the now-retracted rape story. However, questions of whether or not this or that unit did this or that war crime are optics matters that are irrelevant now that the conflict is joined in earnest again. There is no such thing as a clean war and there never will be. Pearl clutching about civilian collateral damage is a useless middle class affectation for people who have never had to struggle to survive. What a breathtaking bit of pretzel logic here, sentence by sentence: 1. Crimes didn’t actually happen here. 2. But figuring out if crimes happened would be a waste of time. 3. Crimes always happen anyway nbd. 4. Okay, there were crimes, but they were “collateral” and only pussies would care. Just a spectacularly terrible take. Delthalaz posted:Nice to see the rare celebrity not baying for blood: The one thing that always confused me is how Palestine became a darling of the left. Like, a Palestinian state would probably stone a bunch of you to death, treat others like chattel? The people certainly deserve basic rights, Israel is evil in so many ways, but you have queer Palestinians fleeing *into* Israel to escape oppression - shouldn’t that be a factor for any progressive? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 21:24
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TheDisreputableDog posted:The one thing that always confused me is how Palestine became a darling of the left. You can support Palestine without supporting Hamas, you know.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:29
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https://twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1711677285915402481 https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/489947/Proponents-of-normalization-should-learn-a-lesson-from-recent quote:The advisor also issued a warning to regional countries that normalized relations with Israel. “We warn some governments in the region to learn from the fate of the countries that have followed their path and now cannot respond to the resistance front,” he said. This gambit is contingent on KSA/Egypt/UAE/etc. actually facing sufficient domestic anger over the foreseeable Israeli response to impose unpalatable domestic costs, rather than apathy (what does it say that this was the third choice proxy war, behind Syria and Yemen?) There's supposed to an emergency Arab League meeting today, isn't it? I suppose we will see if it is the usual fare or if it feels obliged to rise to the level of Iranian rhetoric
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Oct 10, 2023 21:29
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TheDisreputableDog posted:What a breathtaking bit of pretzel logic here, sentence by sentence: I'm white. They'd probably have hosed me up during the most violent fighting against apartheid. I still think apartheid was bad. Some of us just don't suck.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:31
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TheDisreputableDog posted:The one thing that always confused me is how Palestine became a darling of the left. Like, a Palestinian state would probably stone a bunch of you to death, treat others like chattel? The people certainly deserve basic rights, Israel is evil in so many ways, but you have queer Palestinians fleeing *into* Israel to escape oppression - shouldn’t that be a factor for any progressive? I'm not really sure what this has to do with anything. Justice isn't about advocating for the rights of only people who you agree with; it's about advocating for the rights of the oppressed, period.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:32
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Yeah, it doesn't seem that complicated to me. Israel/Palestine has been like the biggest, most obvious example of a colonial power struggle against european oppressors since the fall of apartheid SA (with of course the caveat that not everyone agrees that Israel is colonial or european), and that's a very normal thing for the left writ large to care about, and has for a long time.
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Oct 10, 2023 21:36
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Majorian posted:Netanyahu is from Philly. Netanyahu was Born in Tel-Aviv and his father was born in Poland.
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