|
celadon posted:Israel's genocide is going to succeed, there should be no doubt about that. They're implementing a full scale blockade on two million people, theres no way Gaza can support its population internally, nor is there any indication that other entities will step up to the plate and provide sufficient aid. It is also unclear under what conditions an entity like the United States would step in and break Israel's blockade. Israel is going to do just fine in its objectives, Gaza will be cleared out. I stated accelerate it for Palestinians, not Gaza. I hope you understand the nuance in that. If not, please educate yourself further: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 02:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 01:46 |
|
|
Kalit posted:And, as I had replied to your prior claim of "no options available to them except terrorist attacks", trying to attack Israel is still not a more viable option when compared to others you had listed. It will do nothing to help out Palestinian rights. Do you think that the ANC in South Africa shouldn't have used car bombs? Shouldn't have attacked embassies and government workers, or whites who lived near and used black townships for cheap labor? Do you think that, without those attacks, the white lead government would have relented on their own, or that other nations would have been sickened enough by their death squads to begin breaking economic ties with them? Do you earnestly believe that there is a peaceful path to liberation for Palestine, given Israel's unwillingness to negotiate with them in good faith and near constant interference in their elections?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 02:31
|
|
|
Kalit posted:I stated accelerate it for Palestinians, not Gaza. I hope you understand the nuance in that. If not, please educate yourself further: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories I'm sorry, I only referred to Gaza in my post as my concerns at the moment are primarily of Israel's blockade of Gaza and the subsequent humanitarian disaster contained within. I understand that Israel controls other populations of Palestinians for which this current conflict will certainly be used as an educational device. I understand that the state of Palestinians under Israeli control is more complex than just what occurs inside the Gaza Strip, don't worry.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 02:41
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Do you think that the ANC in South Africa shouldn't have used car bombs? Shouldn't have attacked embassies and government workers, or whites who lived near and used black townships for cheap labor? Do you think that, without those attacks, the white lead government would have relented on their own, or that other nations would have been sickened enough by their death squads to begin breaking economic ties with them? Do you earnestly believe that there is a peaceful path to liberation for Palestine, given Israel's unwillingness to negotiate with them in good faith and near constant interference in their elections? When you have a world where most countries are not an ally of a populace, mass murdering random citizens of an ally of most countries that have a decent influence on global politics usually does not start creating a positive view of said populace. If you have specific facts that disproves this, I would love to see them. TBH, I don't want to have to go through your vague broadbrushed examples, analyze the effect they had, etc. celadon posted:I'm sorry, I only referred to Gaza in my post as my concerns at the moment are primarily of Israel's blockade of Gaza and the subsequent humanitarian disaster contained within. I understand that Israel controls other populations of Palestinians for which this current conflict will certainly be used as an educational device. I understand that the state of Palestinians under Israeli control is more complex than just what occurs inside the Gaza Strip, don't worry. Glad to hear, thank you for the clarification Kalit fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 02:42
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Do you think that the ANC in South Africa shouldn't have used car bombs? Shouldn't have attacked embassies and government workers, or whites who lived near and used black townships for cheap labor? Do you think that, without those attacks, the white lead government would have relented on their own, or that other nations would have been sickened enough by their death squads to begin breaking economic ties with them? Do you earnestly believe that there is a peaceful path to liberation for Palestine, given Israel's unwillingness to negotiate with them in good faith and near constant interference in their elections? Personally, I don't know much at all about what the ANC did or had to do, because I was publicly educated in the US of A. I think if you want to explain that these attacks on civilians were tactically useful, you should just go into that directly, instead of trying to analogize these attacks to attacks that most posters here actually know much less about. Maybe the ANC made mistakes, maybe the situations weren't comparable, I don't know and I'm confident that most people here don't, so the analogy isn't helpful. Personally I don't see how these attacks did anything productive, but I do see how they're going to ultimately result in thousands of deaths and tens of thousands of lives ruined.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 02:43
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 02:45
|
|
|
Ciprian Maricon posted:The president of the United States just told the country that the reason why an American aircraft carrier was en route to go blow the people of Gaza to pieces was because Hamas was beheading kids, I think its extremely relevant to discuss if the story is sensationalized and uncorroborated. Wait has the US been directly bombing Gaza? You have a link to this speech where we plan to that seems like quite an escalation on our part(I mean I know we provide the tools for Israel to kill civilians.)
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 02:50
|
|
|
I do not believe the US is directly attacking Gaza. While one may draw analogies or say that US presence is enabling Israel to do their own horrible poo poo, I don't think US Navy planes are taking off from the carrier and dropping bombs on Gaza at present; and I do not think that they ever will be.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 02:56
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:Personally I don't see how these attacks did anything productive, but I do see how they're going to ultimately result in thousands of deaths and tens of thousands of lives ruined. I mean they certainly showed that the status quo was unsustainable. Israel was content to squeeze Palestinians into a smaller and smaller box while occasionally having to mow the grass until the Palestinian territories were fully resettled. That option is now gone. That's an achievement.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 02:56
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:Personally, I don't know much at all about what the ANC did or had to do, because I was publicly educated in the US of A. To simplify a great deal of history, I’ll begin by saying that most of the ANC and related organization major attacks were focused on military, paramilitary, police, government, or industrial targets. In this context I think paramilitary and police forces shouldn’t count as civilian but nevertheless quite a lot of civilian government or industrial workers were killed, especially white civil or business administrators. Additionally, they “indiscriminately” killed quite a few whites, plus fellow black people who were seen as supporting the apartheid government. The goals of these attacks were threefold: first, the render areas outside of white power centers ungovernable, in order to reduce their ability to disrupt black organization. Second, to deliberately accelerate widespread conflict in order to force the government into a choice between negotiation and an outright civil war. And third, to make the country dangerous and unstable in order to scare away international business and investors. The strategy did eventually work: the government began secret negotiations with the ANC, though they took years to start bearing fruit, and only bore that fruit after five years of the particularly intense guerrilla action.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:01
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:03
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:To simplify a great deal of history, I’ll begin by saying that most of the ANC and related organization major attacks were focused on military, paramilitary, police, government, or industrial targets. In this context I think paramilitary and police forces shouldn’t count as civilian but nevertheless quite a lot of civilian government or industrial workers were killed, especially white civil or business administrators. Additionally, they “indiscriminately” killed quite a few whites, plus fellow black people who were seen as supporting the apartheid government. Sounds quite different than Hamas murdering a bunch of non-government/military related civilians. Why are you trying to use ANC as an analogy?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:08
|
|
|
Israel is going to do what it's going to do regardless if a US aircraft carrier is there, it won't change their response. It's there to prevent this from turning into a regional war and while it's perfectly reasonable to be against the US protecting Israel, especially when they are about to do what they are about to do, a regional war is in no one's best interest. The Middle East turning into a firestorm would make a horrific situation even worse, especially when the country getting ganged up on (probably) has nuclear weapons, and would pull in the US anyway.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:10
|
|
|
Kalit posted:Sounds quite different than Hamas murdering a bunch of non-government/military related civilians. Why are you trying to use ANC as an analogy? Did you skip over the part where I said they also killed a lot of unrelated white people? More than 20k people died just from direct fighting, and a lot of them were not combatants. Parts of their strategy were a deliberate terror campaign, and was called as such by international media. I can't pretend to know what exactly Hamas is thinking, but I suspect their goals aren't that different than the ones I outlined.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:14
|
|
|
What is the impact of Israel implementing a full-scale food/water/energy blockade of Gaza at this point? Cause thats a real world policy thats currently in real world action? Whats the impact of this policy in terms of bodies generated and how will it change on a day to day basis?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:14
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:To simplify a great deal of history, I’ll begin by saying that most of the ANC and related organization major attacks were focused on military, paramilitary, police, government, or industrial targets. In this context I think paramilitary and police forces shouldn’t count as civilian but nevertheless quite a lot of civilian government or industrial workers were killed, especially white civil or business administrators. Additionally, they “indiscriminately” killed quite a few whites, plus fellow black people who were seen as supporting the apartheid government. Thank you for laying this out. Can you lay out your approach to the Hamas attack in the same way, what priorities were accomplished?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:14
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:18
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:Thank you for laying this out. Can you lay out your approach to the Hamas attack in the same way, what priorities were accomplished? As I said, I can't know what Hamas is thinking, but I think that terror attacks like the one at the rave and in civilian neighborhoods accelerate widespread conflict by provoking an active Israeli response. If things get bad enough, they could also cause enough instability to make businesses shy away. I think that Hamas has far fewer viable targets than the resistance to Apartheid did, since they are functionally having to stage a prison break just to make their attacks. It's entirely possible that it won't work out how they hope it will, of course.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:27
|
|
|
I've mentioned it before but the ANC attacks were not the only driving force of bringing down apartheid but crippling worldwide sanctions probably played a bigger part. Most of the violence in the 80s when Apartheid was declining was between the ANC and IFP with large amounts of casualties of blacks and and everyone else. While this violence was being supported by the National Party it made things a lot more unbearable for everyone and the boycotts/sanctions just made apartheid unsustainable. I also asked a question pages about how Hamas keeps getting compared to ANC as some kind of heroic use of violence but if all violence by resistance is heroic would you say ISIL and the LRA are just as comparable to the ANC and Hamas?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:28
|
|
|
celadon posted:What is the impact of Israel implementing a full-scale food/water/energy blockade of Gaza at this point? Cause thats a real world policy thats currently in real world action? Whats the impact of this policy in terms of bodies generated and how will it change on a day to day basis? Based on what we've seen in Syria, it would take weeks at a minimum for a full on siege against Gaza to start leading to people starving to death. In a few weeks what Hamas did here will be old news to most of the world. I don't think Israel can hold out long in a scenario where the top story in international news is a gigantic siege in Gaza with hours of footage of starving babies. They're going to have to allow aid corridors through at some point.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:28
|
|
|
Google Jeb Bush posted:I've been hesitating with this take because it's ultimately The Vibes rather than a thorough census, but the media output of Hamas leadership has been afaict... unclear. Probably doesn't help that we're solidly in fog of war and I don't speak or read Arabic. It's genuinely hard for me to tell how many of the war crimes were planned at what level, vs a total failure or unwillingness to keep the grunts in line. That last bit isn't a very good best case scenario! Israel or another colonial power setting their troops loose to Do Whatever wouldn't exactly be great either. I feel like the best bet is that their goals were to terrorize the settlements and spoil the brewing Saudi Arabia/Israel accords. I doubt we'll ever get the complete story of how much planning went into the individual attacks, but my uneducated guess, based on the contrast between some units taking selfies with grandmas and others recording brutal atrocities, is that there was no overarching strategy. You'd think if the latter were units that had gone rogue, the leadership would have said so. The best explanation for the media output being so muddled is probably what some goon suggested upthread, that they were genuinely shocked at the global backlash this has generated.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:30
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:Did you skip over the part where I said they also killed a lot of unrelated white people? More than 20k people died just from direct fighting, and a lot of them were not combatants. Parts of their strategy were a deliberate terror campaign, and was called as such by international media. I can't pretend to know what exactly Hamas is thinking, but I suspect their goals aren't that different than the ones I outlined. Based on a casual google search, since you're not providing any sources, they actively killed 52 civilians in their attacks. Hamas killed a lot more in their recent attacks. In addition, since you didn't say anything about public support, I'm trying to look up what it looked like (I was born in 1987, so I'm not super familiar with it). I see that during what seemed to be the height of your [presumably mostly non-civilian] 20k death claim, with 15k deaths occurring during mid 1980s-1990s, even the US was divided on foreign relations with South Africa based on the handling of the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act. Which seems to be much different than the US current support of Israel/Hamas. I am assuming that other countries were also more supportive of the ANC than they currently are of Hamas. If I stated anything inaccurately or you have further context, I'd love to read it. However, based on trying to look these things up myself, it still seems like ANC's tactics vs Hamas' tactics are very different when looking at it from a global, geopolitical lens. Kalit fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:32
|
|
|
acidx posted:Based on what we've seen in Syria, it would take weeks at a minimum for a full on siege against Gaza to start leading to people starving to death. In a few weeks what Hamas did here will be old news to most of the world. I don't think Israel can hold out long in a scenario where the top story in international news is a gigantic siege in Gaza with hours of footage of starving babies. They're going to have to allow aid corridors through at some point. "have to" is a real enthusiastically supposed condition. i have little faith that israel will feel compelled to moderate in a few weeks what they've been gunning for for decades, so I don't want to guess either way about whether they'll scale this back of their own accord anytime soon.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:37
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:41
|
|
|
It’s a bad situation with BiBi on borrowed time. He sees his only chance of retaining power and his legacy is by finishing the job here. Are they trying to bomb it to rubble, move in, and displace everyone? Other countries aren’t going to take refugees in, they are almost as racist as Israel.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:42
|
|
|
Mid-Life Crisis posted:It’s a bad situation with BiBi on borrowed time. He sees his only chance of retaining power and his legacy is by finishing the job here. Are they trying to bomb it to rubble, move in, and displace everyone? Other countries aren’t going to take refugees in, they are almost as racist as Israel. I'm kind of wondering if Egypt will be forced by public opinion to (at least initially) admit a significant level of palestinian refugees but yeah neigboring Arab states treat the Palestanians like poo poo lol and I suspect their publics aren't going to be nearly as pro-Palestine if being pro-Palestine means they have to open their borders to refugees for prolonged periods of time
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:48
|
|
|
Mid-Life Crisis posted:It’s a bad situation with BiBi on borrowed time. He sees his only chance of retaining power and his legacy is by finishing the job here. Are they trying to bomb it to rubble, move in, and displace everyone? Other countries aren’t going to take refugees in, they are almost as racist as Israel. Netenyahu is really remarkably like most of the rest of the world's right wing in that 1. They market themselves on Security but never benefit from actually providing Security, so they don't 2. When their policies fail, they use the failure of their policies to justify doubling down on the increasingly necessary original failures. I don't think israel can manage themselves at this juncture. Bibi least of all. If he backs down from the most ghoulish of their intent towards the Palestinian people, it will be because of some kind of international pressure. It's an extremely weird thing to think about because it won't come about through any sense of mercy to palestine, just an increasingly fraught sense that israel is shaking the world up too hard with their own bloodlust and things are getting very bad as a result.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 03:49
|
|
|
Adenoid Dan posted:It's pretty gross how with Israel doing a genocidal bombing campaign people are still focusing on Hamas. Israel is getting a green light from all its partners to slaughter everyone in their concentration camp, how is that not the topic? Atrocity propaganda about beheaded babies and mass rapes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 04:03
|
|
|
Google Jeb Bush posted:I've been hesitating with this take because it's ultimately The Vibes rather than a thorough census, but the media output of Hamas leadership has been afaict... unclear. Probably doesn't help that we're solidly in fog of war and I don't speak or read Arabic. It's genuinely hard for me to tell how many of the war crimes were planned at what level, vs a total failure or unwillingness to keep the grunts in line. That last bit isn't a very good best case scenario! Israel or another colonial power setting their troops loose to Do Whatever wouldn't exactly be great either. Nationalist militias striking back against a rival faction perceived to have oppressed them don't exactly have a good track record dealing with civilians, IMO. There probably isn't any specific tactical reason behind the attacks on civilians other than hatred, resentment, desire to strike back against various previous perceived wrongs, and nationalist fervor. I'd assume they did it for pretty much the same reasons as the ultra-nationalist Jewish militias who were happy to slaughter the inhabitants of so many villages in 1948. You can read all about that kind of thinking at those links - not only did they slaughter civilians, but they were proud of it. They made various tactical justifications for the killings, chief among them the fact that the massacres terrorized the Palestinian countryside and led to civilians fleeing in droves and bringing the country one step closer to the Arab-free Israel that Irgun and Lehi dreamt of, but I think those are post-hoc justifications invented after the fact and after seeing just how great an impact the massacres had. Note that I'm not making this comparison to justify or excuse the atrocities. They're bad, and I think the people who authorized them and committed them should face justice for what they did. But at the same time, I've seen quite a few people here and elsewhere saying that the atrocities disqualify Hamas from ever being a potential peace partner, or that they show that the Palestinians are incapable of coexisting with Israelis. But if a massacre of civilians is disqualifying, then how about all those massacres above? Do they disqualify Israel as a potential peace partner and show that Israel is incapable of coexisting with Palestinians? Yes, it's scary and uncomfortable to deescalate and peacefully live next door to people who think this kind of poo poo is okay. But Israel isn't the only side of this conflict that has to deal with living next to people who thought massacring civilians was okay. Hell, not only was Irgun not held to account for the atrocities, but the guy who led Irgun in 1948 later became the Prime Minister of Israel, and the primary descendant political party is currently the largest party in Israel. I'd love a peace agreement to include war crimes tribunals (or at least a Truth and Reconciliation-style committee) for both sides, ideally with everyone involved in this raid being sent to prison for a long, long time. Instead, we're going to see this used as an excuse to abandon even the pretense of wanting a peace agreement, so Israel can finish those massacres it started all those years ago.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 04:03
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 04:06
|
|
|
Stick a fork in him https://twitter.com/allenanalysis/status/1711849301842760034
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 04:32
|
|
|
That seems to fit most of the facts on the ground. Israeli forces were transitioned to the West Bank to suppress pushback against the settlements, leaving a complacent skeleton crew guarding the "smart wall". Hamas has been planning against the wall since 2018, saw their opportunity for a quick raid, and took it. They neutralized the wall, broke through, and instead of meeting the IDF there was a bunch of ravers and sleeping garrisons. The more trained groups take prisoners , because they trained for a quick raid. The rest proceed to commit war crimes, because that's what paramilitary and special forces excel at.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 04:37
|
|
|
Unlike the 'beheaded babies' lies spread by the IDF, regurgitated by the western press and some posters here, the mass murder of Palestinian children by Israel is not made up. e: link to graphic videos deleted mila kunis fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 04:39
|
|
|
im pretty sure its not, although your point that israel is killing a vast number of infant children in this conflict is certainly going to be true if it hasnt become true already
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 04:45
|
|
|
mannerup posted:mainly just posting this because I find it intriguing as a plausible theory for what occurred for Hamas A lot of the more lurid atrocities that are being claimed become more plausible if you look at it from the view point that the suicide fighters who were presumably meant to be sewing chaos and distraction were both of a lesser quality than the ones sent to military bases, and suddenly realised that not only were they alive long past the point they were expected to have been killed, but that no one seemed to be coming to stop them. It makes a lot more sense, to me anyway, than any plan that would have had "stop to rape" or "do an elaborate cartel tribute act" on the list of objectives alongside "try to create as much noise and confusion as you can in the short time before the IDF come with the speed and wrath of god to kill you." mila kunis posted:Unlike the 'beheaded babies' lies spread by the IDF, regurgitated by the western press and some posters here, the mass murder of Palestinian children by Israel is not made up. As a general life rule, if you ever have to wonder aloud if sharing 'graphic' videos of dead kids is ok, the answer is "what the gently caress is wrong with you?" Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 04:45
|
|
|
Yea can we please not have this thread descend into who can post the most hosed up graphic gruesome stuff. I know people keep saying "what proof what proof what proof" but maybe just a link without embedded video or images would be great.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 04:52
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:Stick a fork in him Still amazes me this guy came back from the dead politically. What a way to reward the dumb shits who supported him.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 05:04
|
|
|
mannerup posted:mainly just posting this because I find it intriguing as a plausible theory for what occurred for Hamas That sounds like western dumbasses trying to justify what Hamas did. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 05:10
|
|
|
Typo posted:I'm kind of wondering if Egypt will be forced by public opinion to (at least initially) admit a significant level of palestinian refugees Not unless they are literally starving to death in Gaza, no. Sisi is also nearly as likely as Bibi to see any male Gazan between 16-50 as a likely terrorist or terrorist sympathizer. I guess in theory I could see the crossing being opened to women, elderly, and children pre-starvation, but no way are any military-aged men by the very broad Russian/Ukrainian age spectrum of « military aged » getting through Rafah unless they’re exceptionally well-connected (eg MSF doctor) or the current conflict has stalled. Most Egyptians care about their massively increasing cost of living and Sisi is much more worried about domestic unrest due to that, which would be exacerbated by 1.5 million non-adult-male Gazans suddenly arriving in Port Said or Ismailia or wherever.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 05:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 01:46 |
|
|
Saladman posted:Not unless they are literally starving to death in Gaza, no. Sisi is also nearly as likely as Bibi to see any male Gazan between 16-50 as a likely terrorist or terrorist sympathizer. I guess in theory I could see the crossing being opened to women, elderly, and children pre-starvation, but no way are any military-aged men by the very broad Russian/Ukrainian age spectrum of « military aged » getting through Rafah unless they’re exceptionally well-connected (eg MSF doctor) or the current conflict has stalled. that's about what I would expect solidarity with Palestine until it starts to raise your rent lol
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 05:27
|
|