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Suggesting the October 7th attack was 'good for the cause' or that 'might makes right' is an idiotic line to take in any case because Israel is much, much more powerful than Hamas! They have the ability and inclination to destroy every building in Gaza and flood all the shelters with tear gas! Any opposition to them doing this will be drowned out by the ongoing revelations of Hamas' atrocities! This was a really loving bad idea even if you ignore the ethics of mass murdering children!
Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 12:05
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A question: Is Israel making any effort to ensure the return of the hostages, or have they just written them off as casualties of war? The indiscriminate bombings seem risky if Hamas still has hundreds of hostages, but I can't imagine the Israeli public would take it in stride that their government has already given up on getting the captives free.
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Oct 11, 2023 12:10
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Panzeh posted:That does just come down to might makes right I'd argue that it's more "Might = Success" than "Might makes Right". We're witnessing in real time that Might is in fact abhorrently wrong in many cases (Israel vs. Palestine, America vs. most of its victims, Azerbaijan vs. Armenia, etc). In a situation where one army is willingly operating at a disadvantage, it's more likely to lose; consider nonviolent protests vs. police with batons. Was it moral for the Viet Cong to hide amongst civilians? Nope. Was it vital to surviving assaults? Yep. Was it good that the Viet Cong won over the proxy government and its benefactors who were shoving wooden dowels through teachers' brains and eels through unmentionables? Yep.
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Oct 11, 2023 12:15
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A big flaming stink posted:
This post is from substantially earlier than the post where he talks about the uncertainty around the narrative. Additionally—I think in this tweet he is not talking about a specific situation, but rather journalistic practices in general—he’s a Ukraine war guy, I’m pretty sure he isn’t on the ground in Israel, although I could be wrong.
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Oct 11, 2023 12:18
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Paladinus posted:Can you explain in more detail what's going on in that video? What is the IDF soldier saying? Do I understand correctly that the implication is that the four men with guns tried to surrender, but Israeli soldiers killed them? The tweet says they exchanged fire, but it's hard to make out anything. Google Jeb Bush posted:I feel like if within mere sentences in the same post you pivot from "these plausible inferences are not fully substantiated at this time" to "it looks like IDF soldiers are executing captives" you might want to either recalibrate your evidentiary standards or explain further. Er, my Hebrew isn't perfectly fluent but what I hear is (have to use screenshot because can't get hebrew text to work properly here)  Which I'd translate like: "Soldier in the video' posted:After encountering four terrorists in the area on the coast, this is what happens to those who infiltrate the State of Israel. The video on the face of it has a group of guys on camera coming (one is spinning his shirt). They're surrendering. They lie prone and then you can see them being shot. There was a bunch of discussion I missed late last night but one of the questions was how I could move from criticising unverified reports to suggesting what this video shows. The IDF has confirmed a bunch of terrorists killed near Ziqim https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-confirms-several-terrorists-killed-on-beach-near-gaza-border/  The caption for the video reads: '[Operation] "Iron Swords", The Elimination of Armed Terrorists in the Ziqim Coastal Region' and then the date in Hebrew and English- which dates it to 10/10/2023 (English language official name is "Operation Iron Sword" - my Hebrew's not good enough to know about special plural cases). No reason to doubt the video's authenticity. The video is posted on the IDF's (Hebrew, not English) Twitter feed: https://twitter.com/idfonline/status/1711798595425366122 The text reads: "An IDF force from Battalion 52 of the 401 Armoured Brigade, in collaboration with a force of fighters from the Maglan unit, identified earlier today four armed terrorists in the Ziqim beach area. Forces from Battalion 17 (Bislamach) exchanged fire with the terrorists in the area and eliminated them." No reason therefore to think the video's doctored. The natural interpretation is that the IDF has executed at least these four surrendering and doesn't mind it being presented for domestic consumption but typically this would be considered I think a crime (whether one thinks it's morally justifiable or not). Addressing your point Google Jeb, the difference here is that this is a verified video accompanying an IDF statement (which is not clear on execution but think the video speaks for itself) vs second or third-hand reports ("An IDF soldier told me") etc spun by people into something that's not perhaps much morally different but matters when one's looking at justifying further crimes against humanity. See eg UK front pages https://x.com/hendopolis/status/1711858912217928095?s=20 smug n stuff posted:This post is from substantially earlier than the post where he talks about the uncertainty around the narrative. Additionally—I think in this tweet he is not talking about a specific situation, but rather journalistic practices in general—he’s a Ukraine war guy, I’m pretty sure he isn’t on the ground in Israel, although I could be wrong. You have to read it with his following Tweet: https://x.com/OzKaterji/status/1711878668409028804?s=20 What he's essentially saying is 'In Ukraine I was on the ground doing xyz, witnessing stuff so I know about how this goes on. There are journalists verifying this and you have to take them on trust because they're on the ground verifying stuff. It's just how it works.' Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 12:23
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The point of war crimes is that they are never permissible. There is no clause that says you’re actually allowed to indiscriminately kill civilians if it’s convenient or you think you have a really good reason. The cause and the method are separate, but one never excuses the other. I support Palestinian freedom and end to the apartheid state Israel has put in place, but there is no excuse for their actions. I wasn’t even supportive of Hamas’s rocket attacks, which got lots of attention but caused very few fatalities but still received some support in this thread. Is something a war crime? If so, it’s wrong. You can still kill masses of civilians without it being a war crime (it just needs to be incidental killing of civilians and proportionate to the military gain) so for something to be a war crime it does truly need to be pretty wrong.
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Oct 11, 2023 12:24
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Er, my Hebrew isn't perfectly fluent but what I hear is (have to use screenshot because can't get hebrew text to work properly here) Bizarre juxtaposition of the woman in a fancy dress and that headline. I know the Mail is trash, but that is going above and beyond the call of duty.
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Oct 11, 2023 12:27
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Supporting Palestine and arguing for their rights makes sense. Supporting Hamas is bonkers
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Oct 11, 2023 12:28
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 12:29
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War never makes sense but, what’s the best case scenario for Israel? They occupy Gaza, take control of it and “eliminate Hamas”. They are now left with ~2m impoverished, hungry and sick people who absolutely hate them and still can’t go anywhere else. This is so dumb.
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Oct 11, 2023 12:38
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dpkg chopra posted:War never makes sense but, what’s the best case scenario for Israel? They had ~2m impoverished, hungy and sick people who abolutely hate them and still can't go anywhere else before the hamas attack, so yeah that would literally be Israel's best case scenario.
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Oct 11, 2023 12:40
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dpkg chopra posted:War never makes sense but, what’s the best case scenario for Israel? If I had to guess: - Probably to destroy most critical infranstructure in Gaza to render the area even more primitive. - To kill/destroy most of the Hamas organisation so they can't stage operations of this size ever again. - Then leave, and probably build even bigger walls and more military bases along the border rather than occupying the place
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Oct 11, 2023 12:45
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dpkg chopra posted:War never makes sense but, what’s the best case scenario for Israel? Best case for Israel? For that ~2m people to become <2m people. And for the number to keep going down. Ideally mostly happening off camera and mostly due to refugees fleeing and the impact of disease, in order to minimize the international reaction. Genocide, even accounting for the lower standards that are usually applied when it comes to brown people, tends to be unpopular if its too graphic and visible.
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Oct 11, 2023 12:45
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Oh man. I’m doing a masters of Holocaust/genocide studies and that DM cover would make my professors go berserk. Invoking the Holocaust is very rarely (if ever) a good idea unless you’re actually talking about the Shoah. Semantics, I know, but it’s a strongly held view amongst a lot of scholars and ultimately I think one should try and look at these horrible events in their own light, not in the shadow of murders decades in the past.
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Oct 11, 2023 12:54
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Failed Imagineer posted:Big [Citation Needed] A big flaming stink posted:
https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1710741297030389942 https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1710741304991219969 https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1710743028107718667 (I'm posting this tweet thread to support the above statement, not to start an argument about the content. Sorry for the slight derail effortpost, but twitter is a poo poo show and it's hard to find trustworthy perspectives) Hong XiuQuan posted:What he's essentially saying is 'In Ukraine I was on the ground doing xyz, witnessing stuff so I know about how this goes on. There are journalists verifying this and you have to take them on trust because they're on the ground verifying stuff. It's just how it works.' Pretty much this. He's urging caution against disinformation and pleading for time. He's also familiar with IDF embellishments/lies/propaganda.
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Oct 11, 2023 12:58
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 12:58
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UK Leader of the Opposition and likely next Prime Minister on record as supporting Israeli war crimes https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1712047387902898301 You'd hope for better from a former human rights lawyer, really, but I suppose the lure of power is strong
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Oct 11, 2023 13:00
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Tigey posted:Best case for Israel? yeah israel does what it does to get more lebensraum (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 11, 2023 13:07
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It's a weird situation though. What are the rules when you go to war with a nation that also depend on your infrastructure? Usually you'd cut all ties to them right?
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Oct 11, 2023 13:08
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Oz Katerji is a mixed bag because the reason he's an independent journalist is that he's burned bridges with everyone whoever offered him a job. I would say he's broadly safe though; he wears his opinions and biases on his sleeve, distinguishes between factually and partial reporting, and generally has a good nose for bullshit.
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Oct 11, 2023 13:10
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 13:12
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I haven't seen this discussed and I was wondering what people think. I talked to a friend last night and he said that in his opinion, mostly based on the WSJ, Hamas' plan was to almost immediately involve a Hezbollah invasion with Iranian support and this plan was halted by the show of deterrence by the US. Now, I think that the show of deterrence by the US is obviously meant to scare off Iran (and Hezbollah) but I don't know whether I fully buy into the fact that this was planned but only thwarted by it. Though, even without Iran involved, a two-pronged attack by Hezbollah in addition to Hamas would have been catastrophic for Israel and makes more sense then simply Hamas lashing out on their own to inevitably be quickly pushed back and then endure massive attacks in Gaza.
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Oct 11, 2023 13:17
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sebzilla posted:UK Leader of the Opposition and likely next Prime Minister on record as supporting Israeli war crimes How quickly he brushes over 'Everything should be done within international law' part of that, ignoring all the indisputable breaches of it past, and ongoing.
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Oct 11, 2023 13:18
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sebzilla posted:UK Leader of the Opposition and likely next Prime Minister on record as supporting Israeli war crimes most people stopped hoping for anything from Keir Starmer a long time ago
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Oct 11, 2023 13:21
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Collapsing Farts posted:It's a weird situation though. What are the rules when you go to war with a nation that also depend on your infrastructure? Usually you'd cut all ties to them right? there are all kinds of rules of war for protecting civilians: https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-protection-civilian-persons-time-war it's just that no one is following them and because israel is the more powerful side it can murder more civilians and no israeli will be prosecuted for war crimes
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Oct 11, 2023 13:27
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Autisanal Cheese posted:most people stopped hoping for anything from Keir Starmer a long time ago
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Oct 11, 2023 13:31
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Israel also purposely created the situation by blowing up Gazas infrastructure, blocking any attempt for Gazians from rebuilding it, and blockading even the most basic supplies like concrete that would be needed to force them to rely on Israel for things like power and water for the exact purposes of using it to inflict mass civilian suffering so it’s really not a weird situation at all, it’s one Israel wanted
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Oct 11, 2023 13:32
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Irony Be My Shield posted:They certainly used to make those comparisons. You previously gave me the example of Mary Lou McDonald. There's an election coming up soon and the opposition are using Sinn Fein's historical support of Palestine as a line of attack in light of recent events, so her statement has to be viewed through the politics of elections. On another note. https://twitter.com/yaelbt/status/1711749865829474351 Do all Kibbutz have a military security coordinator leading armed militias?
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Oct 11, 2023 14:03
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  some poo poo is beyond parodye: this, on the other hand, is potential for poo poo to seriously spiral out of control. even as someone who would nominally in favor of hezbollah coming to gaza's aid it's kind of frightening to think how israel might escalate in response https://twitter.com/GeromanAT/status/1711990320982896961 A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 14:07
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Marenghi posted:There's an election coming up soon and the opposition are using Sinn Fein's historical support of Palestine as a line of attack in light of recent events, so her statement has to be viewed through the politics of elections. Yes, especially on the borders.
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Oct 11, 2023 14:11
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Angry Salami posted:A question: Is Israel making any effort to ensure the return of the hostages, or have they just written them off as casualties of war? The indiscriminate bombings seem risky if Hamas still has hundreds of hostages, but I can't imagine the Israeli public would take it in stride that their government has already given up on getting the captives free. https://www.ft.com/content/b3e95dd8-7fe4-4ff4-895d-bbdc098f09fc quote:Israel’s military and civilian leaders have not disclosed what they know about the location of the latest hostages or any plan to try to keep them safe, much less extract them at a time when Israel is bombarding Gaza from air, sea and artillery ahead of a potential ground assault. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 14:18
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Marenghi posted:There's an election coming up soon and the opposition are using Sinn Fein's historical support of Palestine as a line of attack in light of recent events, so her statement has to be viewed through the politics of elections. For good reason. During the recent attack there's video of Hamas soldiers trying to get into one (protected by a large fence):  They can't, so they hide in nearby bushes. When a civilian car drives up to the fence and it opens, they kill everyone in the car and then proceed to run through the gate and kill the people inside  All these videos are really condemning Collapsing Farts fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 14:18
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 14:24
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Zzulu posted:Hamas is a grotesque terror-organisation that should be destroyed utterly. Like, their founding charter from the 80s alone reads like a cartoon villain wrote it. So in your head, what happens after Hamas is gone? Who steps in to operate whatever civil infrastructure is left behind in Gaza?
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Oct 11, 2023 14:29
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Irony Be My Shield posted:This is a good question. Qatar held talks about a possible prisoner swap on Monday, but there's no reports that they went anywhere. My impression is that Israel are keeping very quiet on the topic, and that the statements they have put out are pretty vague but do not suggest they are willing to negotiate.
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Oct 11, 2023 14:30
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If anyone is interested in first hand photojournalism of Gaza currently, I'd like to suggest this Instagram account. A lot is  nms , so be careful. It's horrible what they're doing to Gaza right now. https://instagram.com/motaz_azaiza Here is an example, this is just a random tweet but the video is from his insta account. I picked this one bc the replies are turned off. https://twitter.com/ShariqKazi/status/1712088914645721500
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Oct 11, 2023 14:35
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 14:36
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John Bolton has seriously not aged a day since he was agitating for Iraq. This lich moisturizes. also please find his loving phylactery, ty mannerup posted:
As I understand it, this is probably at least slightly better than Ben-Gvir and company stomping around unopposed? Unless he's just a patsy who Netanyahu can staple blame onto.
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Oct 11, 2023 14:38
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benny gantz will have no real influence yet will be easily blamed for any future problems how does netanyahu keep doing this
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Oct 11, 2023 14:39
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OctaMurk posted:benny gantz will have no real influence yet will be easily blamed for any future problems
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Oct 11, 2023 15:02
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