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Lurks With Wolves posted:Anyway, if you like Rogue's playstyle more go for it, but multiclassing into Investigator just to do things with Devise a Stratagem just means you're going to spend an action to see if you should Sneak Attack or do something else this turn instead of spending an action to see if you should Strategic Strike this turn. Not really, a Rogue doesn't lose anything by not attacking the target they used Devise a Stratagem on; their Sneak Attack isn't tied to it, and their attack bonus won't change because you aren't forced to be key Int like the Investigator. That means that Devising a low roll means you could just attack a different target and use Devise a Stratagem as a dirty True Strike at will, and if the target wasn't flat-footed yet it saves you the actions on trying to Hide, Create a Diversion, or move for a flank if you know that you wouldn't land the hit anyway. The big deal with the Rogue and the Investigator comparison is that they share so much of the same structure that the unique features on the Investigator end of things really only come down to getting a Methodology, Pursue a Lead, Devise a Stratagem, Strategic Strike, and then just two other class features that both make you better at skill checks you're not trained in which honestly feel kind of bland and tacked-on (adding your level to untrained knowledge checks and the ability to perform checks with one rank lower than the check requires). Because Strategic Strike and Methodologies sort of naturally have a mirror in Sneak Attack and Rackets, that really just leaves Pursue a Lead and Devise a Stratagem as unique features which a Rogue can pick up for only two archetype feats by 4th level to effectively become an Investigator++ who also gets Debilitating Strike. An Alchemist would probably be better at using Devise a Stratagem than an Investigator too, since they throw daily consumables around with unique effects depending on the degree of success of the attack, and even in a fight against a single target with a Devised natural 1 they could still target the ground for the splash. That's my big problem with the Investigator's design, other classes use their own defining features better than them.
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Oct 11, 2023 03:38
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A problem with taking Devise a Stratagem on a Rogue is that they already get lots of things to do with their actions. And unless you're using free archtype I'd have trouble giving up any of the rogue class feats. So many good ones.
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Oct 11, 2023 03:59
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If you're a Mastermind Rogue, then picking up Devise a Stratagem and also adding in Known Weaknesses for another feat is a straight upgrade. Rather than doing Recall Knowledge to make a target flat-footed to you, you Devise and get the Recall Knowledge for free with an added potential +1 circumstance to hit for you and all your allies. Even better, Devise a Stratagem is still a free action against a subject of your Lead even through the archetype, so you might be able to get all of the above for free when a normal Mastermind Rogue wouldn't. Plus one of the feats you need for this is just the dedication feat, so you can get it just from being an elf with Ancient Elf heritage and keep your 2nd level class feat.
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Oct 11, 2023 04:26
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Just realized something that maybe should have struck me earlier, but I'm bad with rules. Does your MAP stick around until the start of your next turn? IE, does it impact your reactions like attack of opportunity?
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Oct 11, 2023 05:10
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CRB p. 446 posted:The multiple attack penalty applies only during your turn, so you don't have to keep track of it if you can perform an Attack of Opportunity or a similar reaction that lets you make a Strike on someone else's turn. Honestly it would be better if it didn't apply to any attacks made as part of reactions even during your own turn, so that Cleave wouldn't be so terrible.
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Oct 11, 2023 05:24
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AOO/Reactive Strike also has specific text about MAP not applying to it.quote:You lash out at a foe that leaves an opening. Make a melee Strike against the triggering creature. If your attack is a critical hit and the trigger was a manipulate action, you disrupt that action. This Strike doesn’t count toward your multiple attack penalty, and your multiple attack penalty doesn’t apply to this Strike.
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Oct 11, 2023 06:19
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atelier morgan posted:the secret sauce for investigator is that you can designate areas (rooms and corridors are mentioned explicitly) as well as people or items as investigations, so you can use your second investigation slot to designate whatever room you're about to kick open the door to/cave you're about to go dive in/etc Unfortunately I don’t think that works - Devise a Stratagem only becomes a free action if the target creature is the subject you chose for Pursue a Lead. So choosing a room as the subject doesn’t mean you get free action DaS against the inhabitants of that room. So yeah, Investigators have issues.
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Oct 11, 2023 09:56
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Featherless Biped posted:Unfortunately I don’t think that works - Devise a Stratagem only becomes a free action if the target creature is the subject you chose for Pursue a Lead. So choosing a room as the subject doesn’t mean you get free action DaS against the inhabitants of that room. I'm pretty sure they have left this somewhat open-ended so it can be subject to GM arbitration. It specifically mentions in the rules that scopes can be flexible with their approval.
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Oct 11, 2023 12:01
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Featherless Biped posted:Unfortunately I don’t think that works - Devise a Stratagem only becomes a free action if the target creature is the subject you chose for Pursue a Lead. So choosing a room as the subject doesn’t mean you get free action DaS against the inhabitants of that room. if it was intended to target one specific creature you call out then it would take one action and not one minute and it would be called hunt prey and not pursue a lead  the rules for investigator definitely have issues and aren't very well written and the class as a whole is a sometimes food some GMs look at That's Odd and their eyes light up and some let out a shaky breath and want to die. only play investigator in the former games imo atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 13:51
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The overall problem with Investigator is that it should have just been an archetype
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Oct 11, 2023 13:56
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Piell posted:The overall problem with Investigator is that it should have just been an archetype It was just a hybrid class in 1e. Part Rogue, part Alchemist. All of the hybrid classes were just sort of half-archetypes to make a general idea work better more than they were really dedicated classes. Warpriest was a Fighter/Cleric, Bloodrager a Barbarian/Sorcerer, etc. It felt to me like the only Hybrids that did anything new in the 1e class space were Arcanist and Gunslinger, and Arcanist really just proved to be a better Wizard and Sorcerer than either of the base classes.
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Oct 11, 2023 14:29
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What am I misunderstanding about the rules for drugs here-- The game seems to explicitly treat them as just a poison that has a beneficial effect at stage 1. Let's look at Hype as an example https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=780 Does the drug literally only give a benefit while you are on stage 1? If you fail your save on round 2 then you proceed to stage 2, and if you pass it the poison ends entirely? RAW is the only way to sustain a drug to bounce between Stage 1 and 2???
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Oct 11, 2023 14:33
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I don't think your misunderstanding the drug rules at all. I think only alcohol has the stipulation that you have to use more of the drug to increase your level of intoxication, which is kind of weird IMO. Demon dust is example one level higher (https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1495) and the beneficial statuses last into the second stage and are written again under that stage. Theres also the addiction rules that make it pretty rough being a drug addict in pathfinder. https://2e.aonprd.com/Diseases.aspx?ID=15 Edit: Facebook Aunt posted:
I gotta give them credit they did try that, but they only had a couple of real torches at this point because most characters switched to everburning torch's they bought or found. I was making the golem take the fire damage effect anytime it got hit with fire, even though it wasn't magical. gurragadon fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 14:55
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If you got a torch you can do fire damage. A torch can be used as an improvised weapon that does 1d4 bludgeoning and 1 fire. They just had to hit the golem 95 times. So easy.
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I think I'm just gonna rule that the stage 1 drug benefit is active even during deeper stages, the user can choose to not purge the drug if they pass a check at stage 1, and ignore the entire addiction subsystem entirely. And lower the fortitude DC by 5. I have an NPC who I want to offer my players some illicit black market goods as a reward, and combat drugs was one idea (along with guns and magical tattoo needles). I was prepared to homebrew something out of whole cloth anyway but I saw that drugs already existed within the game, unfortunate to see that they almost seem intentionally worthless. Scoss fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 15:35
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Cyouni posted:Which type of swashbuckler? Wit and Gymnast are pretty obvious, Battledancer can still use Leading Dance for positioning, but I think Fencer is pretty SOL. Fencer.  And I can't even do Recall Knowledge checks because I'm not trained in any of the required skills.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:37
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5-Headed Snake God posted:Fencer. A Fencer should still probably invest a little in Athletics to do an opportunistic trip or grapple, especially if you're going free hand style. (You probably should be as a Swashbuckler anyway). You won't be great at it, but also, things with immunities tend to have at least one low save. Just gotta find it.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:38
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These conversations are exactly the type of thing that made me look into flurry style instead of precision for building a ranger. I can't be bothered to deal with fussy damage types that are occasionally just "gently caress you, no" because of bad legacy design baggage. MAP is easy to understand and doesn't change.
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Oct 11, 2023 17:27
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Scoss posted:I think I'm just gonna rule that the stage 1 drug benefit is active even during deeper stages, the user can choose to not purge the drug if they pass a check at stage 1, and ignore the entire addiction subsystem entirely. And lower the fortitude DC by 5. I mean, yes, they are intentionally worthless for obvious reasons. Winners don't do drugs! The only useful drugs I can think of are the ones whose real-life counterparts are fully legal and socially acceptable, like Bloodeye Coffee.
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Oct 11, 2023 18:17
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Why does Feral Child background only grant one ability boost? Are there other backgrounds that only provide one boost?
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Oct 11, 2023 19:20
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Rare backgrounds often have nonstandard benefits. In exchange for losing an ability score boost and a lore skill, Feral Child makes you trained in another normal skill and gives you improved senses. Feral Child is more nonstandard than most rare backgrounds (most of them seem to replace the free skill feat or trained skills with some unique ability), but it's not the only big outlier; Amnesiac gives you three free boosts, one chosen by the GM, and no other benefits. e: Magical Experiment only gives a single abiltiy boost. Red Metal fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 19:22
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Featherless Biped posted:Looks good to me - Safe Elements + Winter Sleet is an amazing combo, and simply keeping it up while doing whatever blasting, utility or support your party needs round by round is a great way to play a Wood/Water Kineticist. Note that Weapon Infusion can grant Thrown or Propulsive if you need more range while still making use of your Str score. This is particularly good when you take Aura Shaping at level 10. Thing with switching to Air at 5 is then I *have* to take an Air impulse, so I'd have to take Winter Sleet at 4 instead and then forgo Safe Elements until some levels later. Level 8 stuff nothing really stands out as that great to me either. Hurricane is just a bit more damage and slightly different shape than Tidal Hands (at level 9 it's 6d8 20 foot emanation vs 5d8 30 foot cone/2 15 foot cones). The healing stuff seems ok, but at this point the party doesn't really need more healing, have a Cleric in the party. Figure if we need healing by that level I'll take a healy talent. Hoping my Rogue hurries up and dies at this point so I can try Kineticist...
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Oct 11, 2023 20:57
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Scoss posted:I think I'm just gonna rule that the stage 1 drug benefit is active even during deeper stages, the user can choose to not purge the drug if they pass a check at stage 1, and ignore the entire addiction subsystem entirely. And lower the fortitude DC by 5. I'm pretty sure they intentionally modelled drugs in such a way that playing optimally wouldn't include being a drug addict.
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Oct 11, 2023 21:19
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Taciturn Tactician posted:I'm pretty sure they intentionally modelled drugs in such a way that playing optimally wouldn't include being a drug addict. Way to kill my immersion, Paizo. 
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Oct 11, 2023 21:22
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Red Metal posted:Rare backgrounds often have nonstandard benefits. In exchange for losing an ability score boost and a lore skill, Feral Child makes you trained in another normal skill and gives you improved senses. Feral Child is more nonstandard than most rare backgrounds (most of them seem to replace the free skill feat or trained skills with some unique ability), but it's not the only big outlier; Amnesiac gives you three free boosts, one chosen by the GM, and no other benefits. Song of the Deep also.
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Oct 11, 2023 21:24
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Finally getting to jump into this edition with a Kingmaker game on Foundry, liking what we've played through so far. Could someone please clarify if I'm understanding Trick Magic Weapon correctly, or more specifically the Magical Trait? It's my read that so long as a scroll or wand is Magical rather than a specific tradition then I can roll any of the 4 skills that I want to rather than the tradition's assigned skill. Is that right? Because from what I can tell all the Corebook wands are Magical rather than a tradition, though I guess scrolls have to be given a tradition Trait.
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Oct 12, 2023 00:49
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I think the key part is it needs to be on the list of the skill you want to use. If a spell is on multiple lists, you can pick your best of the skills relevant to the lists it's on. And I do see trick magic item says "[use] any of the four for an item that has the magical trait but not a tradition trait." So yeah, pick what you want. marshmallow creep fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 01:47
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Thank you, that clarified a lot. I was previously assuming that I could use Nature for any wand with Magical, now I understand that it still needs to be on the Primal spell list. Untrained Improvisation is starting to look pretty tasty, as my lack of Cast a Spell had me assuming that Magic Missile is the only damage spell that I should bother keeping on hand.
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Oct 12, 2023 02:08
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Scoss posted:I think I'm just gonna rule that the stage 1 drug benefit is active even during deeper stages, the user can choose to not purge the drug if they pass a check at stage 1, and ignore the entire addiction subsystem entirely. And lower the fortitude DC by 5. It's a tricky thing for an all-ages game to say "drugs are good."  So you have addiction rules and downsides. IRL most drugs do have downsides. Even the ones that are a good time with no hangover are mostly things you want to do in a safe environment, not while hiking through a dangerous ruin or swamp. Doing drugs should be a downtime activity, not an adventuring activity IMO.
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Oct 12, 2023 06:31
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Facebook Aunt posted:It's a tricky thing for an all-ages game to say "drugs are good." Facebook aunt comin through with the good rp
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Oct 12, 2023 14:47
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'Nother question, is there a solid, consistent way to determine when a character does or not have access to a tradition's spell list? I was recently pointed at the Rogue feat Minor Magic, which gives you 2 cantrips, a spellcasting DC (which I understand as being separate from the Rogue's class DC), the Cast a Spell action, and trained in spellcasting. At first glance this all added up to making Rogue a full caster with no Spell Ranks, cantrips that never heighten, and spellcasting that doesn't grow in proficiency. I also assumed this meant that you could use scrolls, wands, and staves without Trick Magic Item, but someone else pointed out that while the feat uses the wording of "choose arcane, primal, divine, or occult" and "tradition that you chose" it does not grant you access to the tradition's spell list. Not trying to argue against what I was told, only wondering what word or phrasing I should look out for in order to not make the same mistake again.
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Oct 12, 2023 15:27
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I'm sure I could look up some youtube video that someone is trying to heavily monetize so I'd rather get a player's response. What are some ways a lower level rogue could get sneak attacks off from range? Throwing weapons and bows more specifically, without deep investment into feats. (The feint from range throwing perk takes WAY too much investment to get frankly)
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Oct 12, 2023 16:31
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Hide, Cause a Diversion, get an ally to trip/grab, having an ally hit with bottled lightning.
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Oct 12, 2023 16:41
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I would hide most of the time if there's anything to hide behind. Just hide, shoot, hide forever, move if you have to. If you can't hide because there is nothing to hide behind, I would keep one these around for a portable wall. https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1098 Edit: Invisibility potions are level 2 items that cost 20 gp. Definitely not something you would use every round or even every fight, but probably good to keep a couple as a rogue too. gurragadon fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Oct 12, 2023 |
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Oct 12, 2023 16:43
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Archer Archetype for Parting Shot at lvl6 is also an option. I'm not sure if two feats counts as "deep" investment in this case.
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Oct 12, 2023 16:46
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Nelson Mandingo posted:I'm sure I could look up some youtube video that someone is trying to heavily monetize so I'd rather get a player's response. Have the mastermind racket and use recall knowledge.  At level 4 Dread Striker makes everyone who is frightened also flat-footed to you making intimidation checks even more valuable.
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Oct 12, 2023 17:10
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Nelson Mandingo posted:What are some ways a lower level rogue could get sneak attacks off from range? Throwing weapons and bows more specifically, without deep investment into feats. In addition to what everyone else mentioned, don't forget that the Surprise Attack rogue class feature makes all your targets flat-footed during your first round if you rolled Stealth or Deception for initiative and act before them. When rogues gain general martial weapon proficiency in the remaster, you could also switch to using light hammers as your thrown weapon of choice and knock people prone on crit at 5th-level and beyond. Rogues are pretty inefficient at Sneak Attacking from range without the benefit of flanking in general though unless you're specifically built for it or you have a party member who can set you up, so if you're not a Mastermind Rogue you should probably have a Fighter spamming Combat Grab or Snagging Strike.
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Oct 12, 2023 19:06
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Baby Broomer posted:'Nother question, is there a solid, consistent way to determine when a character does or not have access to a tradition's spell list? I was recently pointed at the Rogue feat Minor Magic, which gives you 2 cantrips, a spellcasting DC (which I understand as being separate from the Rogue's class DC), the Cast a Spell action, and trained in spellcasting. At first glance this all added up to making Rogue a full caster with no Spell Ranks, cantrips that never heighten, and spellcasting that doesn't grow in proficiency. I also assumed this meant that you could use scrolls, wands, and staves without Trick Magic Item, but someone else pointed out that while the feat uses the wording of "choose arcane, primal, divine, or occult" and "tradition that you chose" it does not grant you access to the tradition's spell list. Not trying to argue against what I was told, only wondering what word or phrasing I should look out for in order to not make the same mistake again. I've had this discussion twice now and the general rule of thumb we settled on was that only classes and archetypes give you unambiguous access to a tradition's spell list by giving you the "X Spellcasting" ability. Everything else is a bit nebulous but same as innate cantrips don't automatically give you access to a spell list Minor Magic wouldn't either.
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Oct 12, 2023 19:33
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Vanguard Warden posted:In addition to what everyone else mentioned, don't forget that the Surprise Attack rogue class feature makes all your targets flat-footed during your first round if you rolled Stealth or Deception for initiative and act before them. Hammer/Flail crit specialization is getting nerfed in the remaster as well, so it's not going to be quite so absurd as all that.
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Oct 12, 2023 20:13
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Save vs class DC or fall prone would still be the best crit spec effect in the game, when the current second-best effect is probably guns/slings/brawling for save vs class DC or stun/slow 1. Unless enemies in your encounters are all getting their hands on the Kip Up feat somehow, being knocked prone is still effectively stun/slow 1 because you have to spend an action to stand up to move at all or to remove the -2 circumstance penalty for attacks and AC, but the lost action from standing up also provokes reactions and stacks with effects that actually cause stun/slow while those effects never stack with each other. Like if you have Attack of Opportunity or a similar ability, then even with the added saving throw hammer/flail crit spec effectively reads as "save vs class DC or stun 1, flat-footed until start of the target's turn, and when the target's turn starts you get free Strike against them at no MAP".
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Oct 12, 2023 21:36
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Clerical Terrors posted:I've had this discussion twice now and the general rule of thumb we settled on was that only classes and archetypes give you unambiguous access to a tradition's spell list by giving you the "X Spellcasting" ability. Everything else is a bit nebulous but same as innate cantrips don't automatically give you access to a spell list Minor Magic wouldn't either. That makes complete sense, appreciate it.
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Oct 12, 2023 23:42
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