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Irony Be My Shield posted:Suggesting the October 7th attack was 'good for the cause' or that 'might makes right' is an idiotic line to take in any case because Israel is much, much more powerful than Hamas! They have the ability and inclination to destroy every building in Gaza and flood all the shelters with tear gas! Any opposition to them doing this will be drowned out by the ongoing revelations of Hamas' atrocities! This was a really loving bad idea even if you ignore the ethics of mass murdering children! hamas' actions are obviously awful - but what exactly do you think should be done instead? everything has been tried at this point. hundreds of palestinians were killed during the great march of return. life in the west bank has gotten worse and worse. what is the other option for palestinians in gaza? israel has shown time and time again that they are utterly uninterested in coexistence and will use lethal force against nonviolent protests.
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Oct 11, 2023 15:08
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I doubt Israel will ever again get the carte blanche that they have right now to obliterate Gaza and I expect they’ll push it as far as they can given the current government. The only outstanding question in my mind now is how many scores of dead Palestinian it will take before foreign governments start to feel uncomfortable. Are we talking tens of thousand? More? Could Israel actually destroy every single building, turning Gaza into a tent city, while retaining broad support?
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Oct 11, 2023 15:08
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shades of blue posted:hamas' actions are obviously awful - but what exactly do you think should be done instead? everything has been tried at this point. hundreds of palestinians were killed during the great march of return. life in the west bank has gotten worse and worse. what is the other option for palestinians in gaza? israel has shown time and time again that they are utterly uninterested in coexistence and will use lethal force against nonviolent protests. Something that doesn't end up causing the reaction to be complete genocide?
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Oct 11, 2023 15:10
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Vahakyla posted:This also removes the agency from Israel. quote:Released on August 18, 1988, the original covenant spells out clearly Hamas’s genocidal intentions. Accordingly, what happened in Israel on Saturday is completely in keeping with Hamas’s explicit aims and stated objectives. It was in fact the inchoate realization of Hamas’s true ambitions. there is something exclusive to Westerners completely removed from the situation where they think Israel should open discourse with a group that calls for our wholesale extermination I think in this entire thread I've seen maybe one mention of Black September..but anyone who actually has knowledge of the region gets a big ole red text av as a "shill", it's nothing new, but I was hoping for something better
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Oct 11, 2023 15:12
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OctaMurk posted:how does netanyahu keep doing this
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Oct 11, 2023 15:12
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nogoodpeople posted:Something that doesn't end up causing the reaction to be complete genocide? Israel was already actively doing this anyway? The last peaceful protest Gazians tried to do to get international attention ended with thousands of them killed or maimed by IDF snipers and the only acknowledgment by west powers, if there even was one, was tut-tutting them for provoking the poor Israeli snipers into shooting them
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Oct 11, 2023 15:13
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shades of blue posted:hamas' actions are obviously awful - but what exactly do you think should be done instead? everything has been tried at this point. hundreds of palestinians were killed during the great march of return. life in the west bank has gotten worse and worse. what is the other option for palestinians in gaza? israel has shown time and time again that they are utterly uninterested in coexistence and will use lethal force against nonviolent protests. Fight back militarily but stringently within the laws of war. Hamas is never going to beat Israel militarily and war. The best violence can do is be used as a tool for a negotiated political settlement. A just war can bring pressure on Israel and international attention to the conflict. War crimes Phuket the image of Palestinians and strengthen Israel’s hand. It neither moves Hamas closer to a military victory over Israel (which will never happen) or brings a negotiated settlement any closer.
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Oct 11, 2023 15:19
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zer0spunk posted:there is something exclusive to Westerners completely removed from the situation where they think Israel should open discourse with a group that calls for our wholesale extermination I am jewish. I visited Gaza in 2008, going through Erez. I watched Hamas goon squads beat suspected gay people there, soon after taking control from Fatah My childhood friend died in a suicide bombing in Jerusalem. My right to return paperwork sits on my desk as a reminder of what my life could’ve been like in the IDF had I not gone to America. Especially now. My family members live in Maghar, currently considering suicide as a valid option rather than getting called up as a reservist infantry captain as their palestinian neighbor is also an IDF Reservist who is in panic mode about getting called due to you know, not agreeing with the conscription or genocide. Many of my family members have complicated history with service and their roots. My uncle commanded a tank in Peace for Galilee in 82 with a palestinian driver and gunner. Those two guys still live in Israel, and to this day face discrimination, and while they’re too old to be called up for IDF, that juxtaposition is constant in their lives. And you are also wrong. Hamas charter stopped their genocide call from the charter in 2017. That’s not to excuse it, but also let me ask you this: Who the gently caress commands most military might, political power, money, and influence in the Levant? Israel or Hamas? Ok, so maybe the one with more power dictates the pace. Also don’r act like you get to dictate the collective opinions of jews. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 15:22
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Dr. VooDoo posted:Israel was already actively doing this anyway? The last peaceful protest Gazians tried to do to get international attention ended with thousands of them killed or maimed by IDF snipers and the only acknowledgment by west powers, if there even was one, was tut-tutting them for provoking the poor Israeli snipers into shooting them They were doing it, but not with the same overtness or broad support. As you said, previous Israeli aggression warned a "tut tut". This round of Israeli aggression is being applauded to the tune of "Israel has the right to defend itself" while the US Navy aids the siege and various major powers ask them how many hospital leveling bombs they need I don't know what ought to have been done. But civilian massacres are lovely and this one (which, yes, can be seen as retaliatory for Israel's countless massacres) did nothing to put Gaza in an advantageous or even sympathetic position, and my fear is that it's going to take a whole new level of suffering before the world at large notices what Israel is doing
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Oct 11, 2023 15:23
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The only power station in Gaza has run out of fuel so I don't think they have any way to filter the brackish water they can pump with the existing wells they have. It seems to me that Israel doesn't even need to go in for complete genocide, they just need to keep the water and power turned off for a week or two. There are American citizens of Palestinian descent who were in Palestine, also, but the response from the US embassy to them has been "tough luck."
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Oct 11, 2023 15:23
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Vahakyla posted:I am jewish. The fact that you think I'm not aware of the 2017 revision is interesting. I'm fully aware of the change in language that says the exact same thing.. quote:A Kinder, Gentler Charter? Changing what you refer to us as is not the sweeping policy change you attempt to give it. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/ e: again, for you and those in your boat. diplomacy (which was attempted 5 different times) is impossible with a terrorist organization. what you saw them carry out, is exactly who that group is, and thinking you can rationally talk your way out of this is delusional in the face of what the reality is. everyone i know who was hard left, including the survivors of the mostly left southern villages have abandoned the two state solution. this act of war has mobilized a country that was divided, and all of its allies who normally advocate for restraint haven't. we can debate back and forth but, that is the reality of where we are now. zer0spunk fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 15:25
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Dr. VooDoo posted:Israel was already actively doing this anyway? The last peaceful protest Gazians tried to do to get international attention ended with thousands of them killed or maimed by IDF snipers and the only acknowledgment by west powers, if there even was one, was tut-tutting them for provoking the poor Israeli snipers into shooting them So Israel was actively amassing 100k troops on the borders of Gaza and ready to roll in and take over the entire area? They were cutting off all water and electricity? Do you people understand what escalation is at all? Apparently it seems like not. The Gaza population nearly doubled from 2000-2020 from 1.1m to 2m. What is this number going to be given the tactics Israel will use here?
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Oct 11, 2023 15:32
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Can anyone who speaks Arabic summarise this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcz5Kqpc_rw This is Khaled Meshaal, former Hamas chief and current leader of their diaspora office. I see a lot of conflicting reporting ranging from 'he calls for Jewish pogroms around the world' to 'he asks diaspora and fellow Muslims to participate in protests in support of Palestine'. From what I managed to piece together from selective translations, he also calls for volunteers to go to Israel and join the fight, but I am not entirely convinced the translations I see are correct. Reuters only mentions protests in their reporting. https://www.reuters.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-protests-idAFS8N3AQ05J
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Oct 11, 2023 15:32
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zer0spunk posted:The fact that you think I'm not aware of the 2017 revision is interesting. I'm fully aware of the change in language that says the exact same thing.. Not all Jews are zionists and not all Zionists are Jews, hth
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Oct 11, 2023 15:33
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That's what I'm saying, Hamas is objectively loving horrible. Their entire core and identity is not "save palestine" it is "destroy israel" and it has been the case for 30 years. Almost any other governing body for Gaza would be better than one that has the sole objective of waging eternal jihad until they can eradicate "zionists" and establish an islamic sharia state. This isn't some strawman poo poo either, it's in their own words.
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Oct 11, 2023 15:36
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not sure how to respond to a Facebook friend and associate who posts every hour or two that he can't believe there's no outcry of justice for Israel and that 'your Jewish friends see this and will remember it, any marginalized group gets attacked and it's post after post but nothing for Israel?' an I supposed to express pity for the apartheid state with it's boot on the neck of the snarling dog it's about to starve and shotgun to death? what do I tell this guy
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Oct 11, 2023 15:38
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zer0spunk posted:The fact that you think I'm not aware of the 2017 revision is interesting. I'm fully aware of the change in language that says the exact same thing.. You are like the Assumer in Chief. Plural of anecdote isn't a fact. You have anecdotes, I have anecdotes. Clearly mine don't agree with yours, so that should be enough to tell you that maybe it is not quite as universal. Second, why do you think I want to negotiate with Hamas? I want Hamas destroyed and ripped out of Gaza and elsewhere. You are the one who assumes (and thus shows your true colors) by equating Palestine with Hamas. The best way to eradicate Hamas' power is to treat Palestinians well and remove the open air prison. Remaining jihadist will some surely choose the way of violence, but hey I got great news, I think the IDF can deal with dudes with rifles. You are seemingly fighting in these comments against some Hamas Supporter. I hope you are winning! Hamas bad! Nor am I for a two-state solution. I support integrated Israel (or any of the alternate one-state names). You have obviously radicalized and started to assume all Palestinians are basically Hamas. That is unfortunate. I am not there yet. But you should not speak for everyone. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 15:40
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Collapsing Farts posted:That's what I'm saying, Hamas is objectively loving horrible. Their entire core and identity is not "save palestine" it is "destroy israel" and it has been the case for 30 years. Almost any other governing body for Gaza would be better than one that has the sole objective of waging eternal jihad until they can eradicate "zionists" and establishing an islamic sharia state. This isn't some strawman poo poo either, it's in their own words. How do you convince Israel that's what they want, when the incentives all seem to be for the people in power to prefer genocidal assholes? And in fact, can't Israel, through arrest and assassination, decide what the leadership of Hamas looks like, to some degree? The entire dynamic of the situation is weird because Israel has enormous control over Gaza, and can basically pick a lot of the factors they're going to be working "against," if you can be said to work against something that is largely within your control. Basically, if the militant right wing that's been in charge for decades obviously prefers Hamas over some more reasonable group which may or may not even exist at this point, who exactly do you see putting that alternate group forward and empowering them?
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Oct 11, 2023 15:40
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Decon posted:They were doing it, but not with the same overtness or broad support. A tut tut to the protestors. As far as I know the US never condemned any Israeli action, and every time the UN tries the US vetoes it. With regards specifically to the 2018 protest. "The US vetoed the resolution, with then-US Ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley saying it presented “a grossly one-sided view of what has taken place in Gaza in recent weeks”. Haley blamed Hamas for the violence." Collapsing Farts posted:That's what I'm saying, Hamas is objectively loving horrible. Their entire core and identity is not "save palestine" it is "destroy israel" and it has been the case for 30 years. Almost any other governing body for Gaza would be better than one that has the sole objective of waging eternal jihad until they can eradicate "zionists" and establishing an islamic sharia state. This isn't some strawman poo poo either, it's in their own words. Hamas is objectively horrible and Israel should never have supported them to undermine Palestinian statehood or secular Palestinians. If Israel kills every single member of Hamas and goes right back to the status quo of bombing hospitals, power plants, and so on, which they really have no reason not to and never had, then there's just going to be another group of furious and broken people forming another Hamas to eventually massacre another group of civilians.
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Oct 11, 2023 15:41
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Miftan posted:Not all Jews are zionists and not all Zionists are Jews, hth This is exactly the point I am making. Changing the rhetoric to "only zionists must die" might have some truth to it, if the actions matched. Except it doesn't, especially when they attack the region that doesn't support Zionism. They murdered people sympathetic to their own cause, because the objective is terrorism. Trying to make their charter espousing genocide more palatable clearly works though. I'll continue to use sourced facts here to back up my claim they indiscriminately murder any jew, not just a careful and thoughtful selection: quote:Vivian Silver, 74, a member of Kibbutz Be’eri, near the northern end of Gaza, was still missing on Monday night and presumed to have been taken hostage. Ms. Silver, a native of Winnipeg, Manitoba, was among the leaders of Women Wage Peace, a large grass-roots movement founded in the aftermath of the Gaza War of 2014 to promote a political resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/10/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza#peace-activists-killed-israel
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Oct 11, 2023 15:41
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boar guy posted:not sure how to respond to a Facebook friend and associate who posts every hour or two that he can't believe there's no outcry of justice for Israel and that 'your Jewish friends see this and will remember it, any marginalized group gets attacked and it's post after post but nothing for Israel?' That you have sympathy for the civilian deaths on both sides of the conflict but none at all for the Israeli State that has engineered this outcome through decades of genocidal apartheid policy? Brucolac fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 15:42
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Maybe don’t go on Facebook too
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Oct 11, 2023 15:45
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I think this article clarifies what's been frustrating for me and (apparently) other people in the "so left that Free Palestine goes without saying" discourse bubble. The author, myself, and I'm sure some other users here are Jews who grew up around a lot of liberal Zionism and were disillusioned from it by intellectually dishonest and morally callous dismissals or even justifications of actual war crimes. That's why it's been so disturbing to see the exact bullshit rhetoric from people who, I assumed, were pro-Palestine exactly because they knew better. quote:Frankly, if all you have to offer is this grubby, scummy cynicism—no clean hands in a dirty world, sometimes innocent people will die, war is violent and in the end there’s nothing wrong with that—then to be honest, I struggle to understand why you even bother to align yourself with Palestine at all. If this is how you talk, how can you possibly adopt any stance of moral outrage when Israel commits its own crimes? Why not drop the act and throw your lot in with the IDF, since they already speak your language? It's not just the fact that war crimes are being justified or dismissed but that the way people are doing them is exactly parallel to right-wing Zionism/IDF apologia. "The logistical circumstances and nefarious tactics of the enemy make it impossible to distinguish between combatant and civilian, in fact even the alleged civilians are culpable in their own way, but still we're treating them fairly in many instances, much better than they treat us, and when we don't treat them so nice, what gives you the right to critique how we fight for our lives from your cozy American refuge, don't you understand that in a situation this serious no tactics can be off the table? It would all be resolved if they would just leave but they stubbornly refuse to stop occupying our homeland." That's all been in this thread, but also straight out of the mouths of the most obnoxious and outrageous Zionists. And then there's another idea that some left-wing Palestine allies seem to have learned from right-wing Zionists, which is that Palestinian liberation is inseparable from roaming the country killing every Jew you see, so that any opposition to the latter is actually opposition to Palestine itself. quote:Is an instant of freedom for Palestinians just another name for Israelis being slaughtered in their homes? A lot of Zionists would, I think, say yes. Maybe it’s not nice that the Gazans have to be locked in a cage, but look, this is what happens when they get out: they kill everyone they get their hands on. These murders are inseparable from the Palestinian cause; freedom for Palestine is a euphemism for another six million murdered Jews, and the only way to prevent that happening is to keep the Palestinians under occupation forever, or maybe just quietly get rid of them. For what it’s worth, I oppose this notion with every fibre of my being. But maybe I’m wrong, because a lot of people seem to agree with the Zionists on this one. Like, for some reason, basically all of my friends and comrades in the Palestine solidarity movement. It is extremely disturbing to see that the most hateful and dangerous ideas in right-wing Zionism are now common in this particular cultural-political bubble. The insane "security" policies and blood-and-soil nationalism of the Israeli right wing and intelligence sector have produced thousands of deaths this week, I fear tens of thousands more by the end of the year and it might be even worse than that. These ideas need resistance, not replication. Maybe this is just posting about posts, obviously the real disaster is everyone dying, not that powerless people think and say stupid things. But the author's clear despair is something I'm experiencing as well - we thought war crimes were less popular, at least among our friends and political partners, than they are. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 15:47
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boar guy posted:not sure how to respond to a Facebook friend and associate who posts every hour or two that he can't believe there's no outcry of justice for Israel and that 'your Jewish friends see this and will remember it, any marginalized group gets attacked and it's post after post but nothing for Israel?' Do you need to say anything? I don't really think this person is putting this information down in a ledger for future use. I've been quiet on social media because (1) I don't have anything new or particularly thoughtful to say, especially when I realized how little I knew about pre-1948 Palestine; and (2) it's impossible (in the US at least) to have a thoughtful conversation about the situation. Unless I'm in a position of political power, I don't think a public stance is necessary here. I don't know if there's much else for a lot of people in the west to do right now except support aid organizations as best as you can, try to hold your politicians accountable, work on educating yourself and try to be kind to people who actually are affected by this senseless cycle of violence.
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Oct 11, 2023 15:50
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boar guy posted:not sure how to respond to a Facebook friend and associate who posts every hour or two that he can't believe there's no outcry of justice for Israel and that 'your Jewish friends see this and will remember it, any marginalized group gets attacked and it's post after post but nothing for Israel?' I suggest muting them, or telling them Brucolac posted:That you have sympathy for the civilian deaths on both sides of the conflict but none at all for the Israeli State that has engineered this outcome through decades of genocidal apartheid policy? Otherwise Nessus posted:Maybe don’t go on Facebook too
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Oct 11, 2023 15:51
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From Al-Jazeera's live updates:quote:45m ago I am to presume that this-and the pogroms prior in the year-are a result of Hamas' 35 year old deprecated charter. It definitely does not say anything about Israel's intent towards Palestinians that they armed settlers with a shitload of guns and pointed them towards the group of Palestinians that didn't completely embarass the IOF. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 15:52
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Brucolac posted:That you have sympathy for the civilian deaths on both sides of the conflict but none at all for the Israeli State that has engineered this outcome through decades of genocidal apartheid policy? I personally like to know who agrees with the murder of my fellow citizens, so anyone going full mask off is a positive in my eyes, but YMMV I think telling your upset jewish friend who more than likely directly knows someone kidnapped or killed as it's a country of under 10 million residents that israel "engineered this outcome" will go as you should expect it to go. Don't be surprised if they are less civil then I've been ITT
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Oct 11, 2023 15:57
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Violence is spreading in the West Bank: https://twitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/1712102940566003712 There are a bunch of videos floating around Twitter showing armed Israeli settlers storming a Palestinian village and firing indiscriminately. Reuters is reporting that IDF forces were helping the settlers: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/three-palestinians-killed-by-israeli-forces-settlers-west-bank-agency-2023-10-11/
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Oct 11, 2023 15:57
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Mr. Apollo posted:A lot of people make bad decisions if they are promised a tiny bit of power. It's also very difficult to act as a credible opposition when your nation's collective attention is on their version of Pearl Harbor or 9/11. Worst case, Netanyahu wins next elections in a landslide because opposition gets smeared as Hamas loving traitors or something.
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Oct 11, 2023 15:58
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zer0spunk posted:This is exactly the point I am making. Changing the rhetoric to "only zionists must die" might have some truth to it, if the actions matched. Except it doesn't, especially when they attack the region that doesn't support Zionism. They murdered people sympathetic to their own cause, because the objective is terrorism. Trying to make their charter espousing genocide more palatable clearly works though.
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Oct 11, 2023 15:58
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Neurolimal posted:From Al-Jazeera's live updates: Why are you sarcastically mocking something that nobody here believes? There is literally nobody in this discussion who has expressed anything less than contempt for the State of Israel and the occupation of the West Bank. There is nobody here who doesn't understand that the State of Israel is violently racist toward Palestinians. Martman posted:And if Israel is indiscriminately killing Palestinians now, what does that say about their goal? Again, this is a rhetorical question trying to make a point that everyone here understands perfectly.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:00
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I watched a video yesterday of the IDF using phosphorous bombs on an area where there didn't seem to be any infrastructure, and I couldn't work out why they were doing it It makes sense now  https://twitter.com/MalakaShwaikh/status/1712092437932290413
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Oct 11, 2023 16:01
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OctaMurk posted:benny gantz will have no real influence yet will be easily blamed for any future problems I don't think it's a politically viable move not to offer to support the nation in a time of wartime crisis. That makes you very easy to mark as a traitor. Hopefully you can sink Netanyahu later as more details about his screw-ups leak out.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:03
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ANIME AKBAR posted:So in your head, what happens after Hamas is gone? Who steps in to operate whatever civil infrastructure is left behind in Gaza? The PA, at least in theory. Not really sure how much the population of Gaza would be into that, but if Israel gains control of Gaza I suspect there'll be a bloody purge of just about anyone with any ties to Hamas, and after that I doubt anyone in Gaza would have any appetite left for putting up meaningful resistance to the PA. tracecomplete posted:John Bolton has seriously not aged a day since he was agitating for Iraq. This lich moisturizes. Benny Gantz's political claim to fame is that he was the leader of a large party alliance (Blue and White) whose entire campaign platform was basically "Defeat Likud And Dethrone Netanyahu", and he promised repeatedly to form a government that did not include Netanyahu. With those promises in place, Blue and White did very well, winning about as many seats as Likud did. Then he betrayed Blue and White, cutting a deal with Likud to make Netanyahu Prime Minister in exchange for a promise that the Prime Minister seat would switch over to him 18 months later. Naturally, Blue and White fell apart as a result of his betrayal. All his alliance partners bailed on the alliance, and his own Israeli Resilience Party became much less popular, leaving him dependent on Netanyahu for any power. But he never got to be Prime Minister, because now that Gantz had gutted his own political support by betraying the principles he'd campaigned on, Netanyahu engineered the collapse of the government and sent things right back to elections, where the effects of his betrayal wreaked havoc on his political power: his party lost half its seats in the election and his former allies refused to rejoin Blue and White. While he still managed to play a role in the following Yamina/Yesh Atid government, due to the fact that they needed everyone they could get, he himself is a political nobody now and his party is barely able to keep itself above the electoral threshold to get Knesset representation. I tell that story to show that yes, Benny Gantz is absolutely a patsy, and I wouldn't be shocked if Bibi somehow makes him take the blame for this. He's a guy who'll happily abandon his principles and betray his voters and political allies for power, and Netanyahu is quite good at using and manipulating that sort of person. On top of that, Gantz was the IDF Chief of General Staff from 2011-2015, and Eizenkot was IDF Chief of the General Staff from 2015-2019. When there's a lot of political outcry over Israel's failure to properly defend itself against Hamas, two guys who were in charge of most of the previous Israeli operations against Gaza seem like good scapegoating candidates. I'd say that in general, this unity government is a bad thing, because Gantz is in no position to restrain the power of the right-wing. Lapid demanded the ouster of the far-right parties in exchange for participating in the unity government, which Netanyahu appears to have turned down. But Gantz basically just demanded Netanyahu make a separate security committee for him so he doesn't have to listen to Ben-Gvir's genocidal rants while he's busy running the war. boar guy posted:not sure how to respond to a Facebook friend and associate who posts every hour or two that he can't believe there's no outcry of justice for Israel and that 'your Jewish friends see this and will remember it, any marginalized group gets attacked and it's post after post but nothing for Israel?' Point him at basically every world leader siding with Israel and every news site decrying the atrocities? If he's saying that there's no outcry of justice for Israel, then link him to the massive outcry of justice for Israel across the entire Western media. And then log off of Facebook for a while, because that person clearly isn't going to let facts or evidence get in the way of his persecution narrative. If they're so deluded that they think the world is ignoring that massacre, then there's not even any point in trying to argue them into supporting Palestine.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:04
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The problem is that we are far closer to a three state solution than a two or even one state one.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:11
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boar guy posted:not sure how to respond to a Facebook friend and associate who posts every hour or two that he can't believe there's no outcry of justice for Israel and that 'your Jewish friends see this and will remember it, any marginalized group gets attacked and it's post after post but nothing for Israel?' Nothing, you're not going to change his mind. If he's not an actual good friend, unfriend him. Just my opinion
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Oct 11, 2023 16:12
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i'm just going to continue to be silent, dude doesn't want considered debate, he wants cheerleading for his side (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 11, 2023 16:12
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Martman posted:And if Israel is indiscriminately killing Palestinians now, what does that say about their goal? To mirror a previous poster that said not all zionists are jews, not all Palestinians are Hamas. Hamas is the democratically elected gazan ruling party, who attacked the civilian population of israel on october 8th. None of this is my slant, it's just the facts. Israel is at war now, with hamas. Using human shields and hostages to attempt to reverse the global backlash of what they committed is not going to stop this war, let alone curry favor. I'm, like anyone who has any ties to the region, well aware of the attitude towards israel, and it's never been a consideration because it's never from anyone with any stakes. None of this is surprising, it's just expected. I have full sympathy for gazans as a whole (the secular ones who don't habor hate) as they literally never have anyone who gives a gently caress about them beyond being political pawns, including fellow west bank Palestinians and neighboring pan arab states. They just want peace and safe families as much as we do, but that's not how this goes..it's beyond tired.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:13
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Yesterday all of the main channels interviewed survivors and almost every single one went on an uninterrupted rant on how the government is a failure and how every single politician even remotely involved should be ashamed to show their face in public, Netanyahu is thus far publicly unphased and he seems to already be planning for the day after the war but come the next peace-time elections he'll be running against the "hey, I'm not the guy who was in charge for a decade and a half before the single largest security fiasco in the history of Israel happened" candidate, the two things working in his favor is his loyal cult members who are already working hard on blaming everyone other than dear leader and the fact the current opposition largely consists of buffoons who sold out and collaborated with Netanyahu in the past and are thus also damned by association and by their involvement with the debacle, Ganz, Lapid, Yaalon, they were all involved, and particularly they all held key roles during past Gaza incursions.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:13
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zer0spunk posted:To mirror a previous poster that said not all zionists are jews, not all Palestinians are Hamas. They're making no efforts to minimize civilian casualties, claiming it's because it's impossible because Hamas uses the people that Israel has corralled together and forced into Gaza as human shields. Unless you think entire apartment buildings, schools, and hospitals are full of Hamas leaders they're just indiscriminately killing Palestinians.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:17
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