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Gumball Gumption posted:They're making no efforts to minimize civilian casualties, claiming it's because it's impossible because Hamas uses the people that Israel has corralled together and forced into Gaza as human shields. Unless you think entire apartment buildings, schools, and hospitals are full of Hamas leaders they're just indiscriminately killing Palestinians. Neither side has tried to minimize civilian casualties at this point in time.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:19
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boar guy posted:not sure how to respond to a Facebook friend and associate who posts every hour or two that he can't believe there's no outcry of justice for Israel and that 'your Jewish friends see this and will remember it, any marginalized group gets attacked and it's post after post but nothing for Israel?' You're supposed to delete Facebook
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Oct 11, 2023 16:19
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zer0spunk posted:To mirror a previous poster that said not all zionists are jews, not all Palestinians are Hamas. besides the hostages, what human shields is hamas using??? hamas is outside of gaza attacking settlements, they aren't hiding in gaza at all! thats the loving insane thing, these bombings in gaza only serve a purpose of slaughtering palestinian civilians!
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Oct 11, 2023 16:20
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zer0spunk posted:everyone i know who was hard left, including the survivors of the mostly left southern villages have abandoned the two state solution. this act of war has mobilized a country that was divided, and all of its allies who normally advocate for restraint haven't. So what exactly has changed? This just sounds like acceptance of what was already the de facto state of affairs. The occupied territories were barely viable to begin with and they've been carved up by so many settlements that no functional state could be built around them, and Israel was never going to abandon the settlers, so a two state solution been dead in the water for some time now. Since Israel won't divest the occupied territories, either it finds a way to integrate the Palestinians with the expanded Israeli state or it finds a way to integrate them with the soil. What do you think it's going to be? Is anyone looking ahead to trying to somehow integrate the survivors into Israeli society after Hamas is purged, or are they just going to rebuild the wall and resume waiting for them to quietly fade out of existence with the IDF occasionally prodding them along?
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Oct 11, 2023 16:21
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If anyone has the time, could someone explain to me why there does not seem to be any credible opposition to Netanyahu? I know it's annoying to ask for a summary of the past 30 years, but what happened to the Labor party? Is it that hard to run a credible center-left party? Why is the right so much better at coalition building?
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Oct 11, 2023 16:22
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Eric Cantonese posted:If anyone has the time, could someone explain to me why there does not seem to be any credible opposition to Netanyahu? I know it's annoying to ask for a summary of the past 30 years, but what happened to the Labor party? Is it that hard to run a credible center-left party? Why is the right so much better at coalition building?
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Oct 11, 2023 16:25
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the holy poopacy posted:So what exactly has changed? This just sounds like acceptance of what was already the de facto state of affairs. The occupied territories were barely viable to begin with and they've been carved up by so many settlements that no functional state could be built around them, and Israel was never going to abandon the settlers, so a two state solution been dead in the water for some time now. Since Israel won't divest the occupied territories, either it finds a way to integrate the Palestinians with the expanded Israeli state or it finds a way to integrate them with the soil. What do you think it's going to be? Is anyone looking ahead to trying to somehow integrate the survivors into Israeli society after Hamas is purged, or are they just going to rebuild the wall and resume waiting for them to quietly fade out of existence with the IDF occasionally prodding them along? No one cares right now, to be brutally honest with you. The focus is on clearing any remaining threats in the villages they razed and then going in to dismantle the organization that attacked them. At best people will agree internally we will figure out why these people were left to fend for themselves for 12 hours before the army came in, trust me there's anger there, but not as much as the imagery of the brutality committed released to the world by the people who committed it as propaganda. The country wants this settled, in a way that hasn't been seen since the last surprise attack. It shouldn't be a surprise, I'm sure most of you are posting from countries that historically have done the exact same thing, some within this last century.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:28
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nogoodpeople posted:Neither side has tried to minimize civilian casualties at this point in time. That German raver lady is still alive, that alone shows Hamas has infinitely more restraint than the dogs of the IDF (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 11, 2023 16:28
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A big flaming stink posted:besides the hostages, what human shields is hamas using??? Why "besides the hostages?" The hostages are obviously functioning as human shields (shielding both Hamas and innocent Gazans). Hostage-taking is a war crime, so is using people as human shields whether they're civilians or prisoners of war.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:28
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 16:29
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nogoodpeople posted:Neither side has tried to minimize civilian casualties at this point in time. Some civilians are in an open air prison they have no choice in. Some choose to live in places right next to that open air prison as part of a genocidal resettlement program. I feel the worst for the innocents.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:29
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I’m curious if someone can explain how settlers are the same as civilians. If someone is taking your land. Do you not have the right to take it back? Israel has also armed settlers and settlements are the key pillar in their long term plan at genocide and ethnic cleansing. Why are they completely absolved from consequences?
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Oct 11, 2023 16:31
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skipmyseashells posted:That German raver lady is still alive, that alone shows Hamas has infinitely more restraint than the dogs of the IDF Yes clearly the side that killed over 900 civilians have more restraint than the IDF. Even the IDF wasn't outright killing people at the fence protest. They shot at the knees. A big flaming stink posted:besides the hostages, what human shields is hamas using??? Israel tends to claim and most news organizations repeat the concept that Hamas tends to launch their misiles from inside Gaza and tends to set up their infrastructure in tunnels beneath the city. I'd like to see some refutations, but this seems like a very one-sided way to put things. I doubt there is zero Hamas infrastructure or weapons caches within the city of Gaza itself. Eric Cantonese posted:If anyone has the time, could someone explain to me why there does not seem to be any credible opposition to Netanyahu? I know it's annoying to ask for a summary of the past 30 years, but what happened to the Labor party? Is it that hard to run a credible center-left party? Why is the right so much better at coalition building? Israel has a far-right electorate. There is no such thing as a active center-left party. Even Netanyahu's opposition was right wing. In fact the biggest threat to Netanyahu is not from the left, it's from the far-right Orthodoxs who wish you implement and apply orthodox law to all and not allow foreign religions into the country even to visit as well as completely raze both Gaza and the West Bank immediately. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 11, 2023 16:31
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Didn't see this but someone is streaming live with cameras set up in Gaza and Ashkelon for any attacks. https://twitch.tv/rawreporting
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Oct 11, 2023 16:32
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zer0spunk posted:To mirror a previous poster that said not all zionists are jews, not all Palestinians are Hamas. And where was this concern for the civilian population of Gaza who peacefully protested in 2018 and 2019 and were slaughtered as a result? Why do you think Hamas is as popular as it is? The majority of the population within Gaza has never known anything other than the open air prison. I simply cannot comprehend the pro-Israeli position. Israel has done everything it could possibly do to undermine and destroy any secular Palestinian organization and in fact supported Hamas against secular organizations. They have placed millions of people in a powder keg and refused to negotiate at any point with Palestinian leaders in an honest way. Why is Hamas so popular? Because Fatah tried collaborating in the West Bank and settlement construction has only increased. Every Palestinian can see what will happen if things stay as they have been. Negotiations have led nowhere. Israel has no interest in peace, they only desire capitulation and expulsion. This is not to defend Hamas - they obviously have done and continue to do awful things - but the existence of Hamas is the direct result of the actions of the Israeli government and pretending that Israel has not created this situation is absurd.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:36
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nogoodpeople posted:Even the IDF wasn't outright killing people at the fence protest. They shot at the knees. They killed over 200 and maimed over 8,000.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:36
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Main Paineframe posted:The PA, at least in theory. Not really sure how much the population of Gaza would be into that, but if Israel gains control of Gaza I suspect there'll be a bloody purge of just about anyone with any ties to Hamas, and after that I doubt anyone in Gaza would have any appetite left for putting up meaningful resistance to the PA. Was Gantz ideologically that different from Netanyahu? Or was this more about him not being a corrupt piece of poo poo than anything ideological or policy-based? nogoodpeople posted:Israel has a far-right electorate. There is no such thing as a active center-left party. Even Netanyahu's opposition was right wing. And is that basically a product of immigration? Settlers coming in with pro-settler viewpoints? Are the youth different from older generations with respect to their country's relationship with the Palestinians? Eric Cantonese fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 16:37
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Why "besides the hostages?" The hostages are obviously functioning as human shields (shielding both Hamas and innocent Gazans). This is a quibble, but I think to "function" as a human shield there would have to be some hesitation in killing them. Hamas had the intent for sure, it's just not working out that way. nogoodpeople posted:Even the IDF wasn't outright killing people at the fence protest. They shot at the knees. "When my side brays for blood, it's good"
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Oct 11, 2023 16:38
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My friend asked me this question and I didn't have a good answer: Reporting on this sounds like Hamas just waltzed in and were able to massacre people with no resistance. He asked me "I thought Israel was one of the most armed countries in the world" and "Where were the police" and I didn't know. I haven't been following the details on this that closely because fog-of-war reporting is bad and also this is all so depressing, so I apologize if this has been addressed before, but was there civilian or police resistance in the Israeli towns where this happened? e: I did see that one tweet about the security coordinator who led the defense of her kibbutz, but that's all I've seen and don't know if that was common or extraordinary
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Oct 11, 2023 16:39
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Gumball Gumption posted:They're making no efforts to minimize civilian casualties, claiming it's because it's impossible because Hamas uses the people that Israel has corralled together and forced into Gaza as human shields. Unless you think entire apartment buildings, schools, and hospitals are full of Hamas leaders they're just indiscriminately killing Palestinians. Hamas's military headquarters is literally in Al-Shifa hospital and their ammo depot was set up inside Islamic University, so probably not a great example. A big flaming stink posted:besides the hostages, what human shields is hamas using??? They are almost all back in Gaza as of 24 hours ago. Only 1,000 people went into Israel. 90% of Hamas never left. Israel has retaken most of the areas they were staging attacks from on Saturday and Sunday. Please get informed before making sweeping claims like that. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 16:39
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Lebanon is allegedly sending drones into Israel; Northern Israel is being warned to shelter in place. Saudi Arabia and Egypt are sending out some state media figures to denounce Israel & see where it goes; Syria firing rockets, Saudi internet is apparently not censoring or going after people making GBS threads on Israel anymore, Egypt publicly defying Israel with-regards-to the border. It seems like Hamas' attack has galvanized existing anti-Israel forces in showing how flimsy Israel's forces are outside of their jets, and Israel's obscene attack on Gaza has galvanized even the most middle-class liberal in the satellite Arab states to take a stance. No clue if this ultimately amounts to anything, but for as long as Israel is bombing Gaza citizens I'm hoping that the pressure (military and publicly) continues to escalate. Ideally the message sent should culminate in "no genocide, or fight a six-front war."
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Oct 11, 2023 16:39
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nogoodpeople posted:Yes clearly the side that killed over 900 civilians have more restraint than the IDF. Some one should probably tell that fifteen year old, Othman Helles, that got shot in the chest and died. Or the medic, Rouzan al-Najjar, they shot in the chest. Or any of the other 183 people they killed. Like what the gently caress is this?
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Oct 11, 2023 16:39
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I don't think we need to accuse people of blanket supporting Israel's actions to make a useful point about the way this stuff is discussed. To me from reading nogoodpeople's and zer0spunk's posts it just seems like when it comes to Hamas it's "they are evil, they want to do harm, their indiscriminate killing proves they are bad terrorists" (not saying I disagree with this) but when it comes to Israel's decisions there is more of the "there is no free will in war. this is simple cause and effect, why are you surprised"
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Oct 11, 2023 16:41
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skipmyseashells posted:That German raver lady is still alive, that alone shows Hamas has infinitely more restraint than the dogs of the IDF The bit of reporting I've seen on this seems dubious. Her mother claims she's alive but her mother's sources are unclear at best. I'd love to be wrong here but that's what I've seen of that.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:43
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zer0spunk posted:Hamas is the democratically elected gazan ruling party The word "democratically" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. The current de facto government of the Gaza Strip has not faced the electorate in what's approaching 18 years.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:45
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Decon posted:The bit of reporting I've seen on this seems dubious. Her mother claims she's alive but her mother's sources are unclear at best. The evidence is that her credit card was used in Gaza. Which completely ignores the possibility that one of her captors used it.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:45
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nogoodpeople posted:Even the IDF wasn't outright killing people at the fence protest. They shot at the knees. The femoral artery runs through the back of the knee. Hope this helps. Even if it didn't, it is absolutely idiotic to claim that shooting someone with live ammo anywhere on the body is not an intent to kill that person.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:45
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zoux posted:My friend asked me this question and I didn't have a good answer: Reporting on this sounds like Hamas just waltzed in and were able to massacre people with no resistance. He asked me "I thought Israel was one of the most armed countries in the world" and "Where were the police" and I didn't know. I haven't been following the details on this that closely because fog-of-war reporting is bad and also this is all so depressing, so I apologize if this has been addressed before, but was there civilian or police resistance in the Israeli towns where this happened? The majority of Israeli security apparatus was focused on the West Bank and supporting settlers. They has assumed that Gaza had largely been pacified.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:46
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Neurolimal posted:Lebanon is allegedly sending drones into Israel; Northern Israel is being warned to shelter in place. Source any of your claims.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:47
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I dont know posted:The majority of Israeli security apparatus was focused on the West Bank and supporting settlers. They has assumed that Gaza had largely been pacified. Based on the rumors floating around higher IDF officers, I don't think purposeful ignoring of the situation can be ruled out either.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:47
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shades of blue posted:This is not to defend Hamas - they obviously have done and continue to do awful things - but the existence of Hamas is the direct result of the actions of the Israeli government and pretending that Israel has not created this situation is absurd. Those "buts" are always doing the heavy lifting ITT I can't engage whataboutism as an excuse for massacres, it serves absolutely no purpose. I could just as easily keep going backwards from the olso accords in 93, down to the Byzantine era land claims if that's the point of this, it's an endless back and forth and whataboutism isn't my thing. I actually know the history here beyond the repeated rhetoric, and so can any else easily by looking up the history.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:48
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Mean Baby posted:I’m curious if someone can explain how settlers are the same as civilians. The vast majority of Israelis killed were not settlers. Nobody is settling Gaza since the disengagement. In fact the reason Hamas was so successful is that the IDF was sent to the West Bank to protect settlers instead of Israelis near Gaza. quote:If someone is taking your land. Do you not have the right to take it back? This is exactly what right-wing Zionists say about "taking back Judea and Samaria." The idea that land really should belong to you, even the fact that it belonged to your ancestors, does not justify going there and killing everyone you see. Your question is basically libertarian and the answer is no, human life is more important than property rights. Gumball Gumption posted:Some civilians are in an open air prison they have no choice in. Some choose to live in places right next to that open air prison as part of a genocidal resettlement program. I feel the worst for the innocents. Geographical proximity to a prison isn't a vector for moral culpability, and nobody is settling Gaza since 2005. If you think Israelis are all guilty and culpable because they sustain the state that sustains these atrocities, then you can say that, but it doesn't make sense to think the Israelis who live near Gaza are worse than the Israelis who live far from it. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 16:48
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Eric Cantonese posted:If anyone has the time, could someone explain to me why there does not seem to be any credible opposition to Netanyahu? I know it's annoying to ask for a summary of the past 30 years, but what happened to the Labor party? Is it that hard to run a credible center-left party? Why is the right so much better at coalition building? The extremely simplified tl;dr version of 30 years of Israeli public opinion is: An Israeli Labor government under Prime Minister Rabin negotiated the Oslo accords in the 90's for peace with Palestine. It was very controversial because many Israelis thought they were giving up too much or putting people's lives at risk with some of the provisions. Rabin was eventually assassinated by a right-wing Israeli who accused him of selling out Israel. Afterwards, Ariel Sharon made a visit to Jerusalem that was controversial. The visit itself was peaceful, but afterwards there were riots. Eventually, the second intifada started and the Israeli middle and right (and some of the left) felt like they had given up so much in Oslo for peace, but the Palestinians were turning it down and launching a second intifada to kill a bunch of people. The labor party basically completely collapsed after that and a large chunk of the population turned against any policy that would give up Israeli security guarantees. Then, there were just more and more right-wing parties that ran on that message and would basically say "Remember Oslo? They are going to get us killed again for nothing." whenever someone else proposed negotiations. The structure of the Israeli Knesset also contributes to this because you only need ~3% of the vote to get a guaranteed seat. So, tons of small extremist parties have flourished and the major political parties are all required to have these extremist parties support them in order to form a coalition. That means basically every government since the early 2000's has had absolutely extreme parties in major leadership positions who were never able to get those positions before and shift the Overton window.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:50
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zer0spunk posted:Those "buts" are always doing the heavy lifting ITT The but has nothing to do with whataboutism. Hamas was supported and became the dominant party within Palestine as a result of Israeli action. That is the history of Hamas.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:51
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zoux posted:My friend asked me this question and I didn't have a good answer: Reporting on this sounds like Hamas just waltzed in and were able to massacre people with no resistance. He asked me "I thought Israel was one of the most armed countries in the world" and "Where were the police" and I didn't know. I haven't been following the details on this that closely because fog-of-war reporting is bad and also this is all so depressing, so I apologize if this has been addressed before, but was there civilian or police resistance in the Israeli towns where this happened? Others have commented on this, but this NYTimes article looks to have good details on some of what happened. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-security-failure.html Some crazy quotations in it too - “Hamas is very, very restrained and understands the implications of further defiance,” said Tzachi Hanegbi, Israel’s national security adviser, in a radio interview six days before the assault.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:51
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Hamas's military headquarters is literally in Al-Shifa hospital and their ammo depot was set up inside Islamic University, so probably not a great example. UN fact finding mission from back in 09 had this to say about the Islamic University "The Mission saw the destruction caused to the American School. It also saw the destruction caused at the Islamic University and in other university buildings that were destroyed or damaged. These were civilian, educational buildings and the Mission did not find any information about their use as a military facility or their contribution to a military effort that might have made them a legitimate target in the eyes of the Israeli armed forces" Perhaps that's changed! Maybe the fact finding mission missed it! But this is the issue with taking anything the Israeli government says about Hamas presence anywhere at face value - they just sort of say it and never seem to feel the need to prove it. When they destroyed the al-Jalaa building, they claimed there was Hamas there too. No one who worked in the building apparently ever saw them though and Israel has yet to provide any evidence. TGLT fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 16:54
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zoux posted:My friend asked me this question and I didn't have a good answer: Reporting on this sounds like Hamas just waltzed in and were able to massacre people with no resistance. He asked me "I thought Israel was one of the most armed countries in the world" and "Where were the police" and I didn't know. I haven't been following the details on this that closely because fog-of-war reporting is bad and also this is all so depressing, so I apologize if this has been addressed before, but was there civilian or police resistance in the Israeli towns where this happened? Yoinking this from IVFW, because it's behind a paywall at https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-security-failure.html quote:The four officials said the success of the attack, based on their early assessment, was rooted in a slew of security failures by Israel’s intelligence community and military, including: From my read, it seems like they were complacent, watching the wrong direction, and didn't get communications until it was too late.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:55
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 16:55
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Neurolimal posted:No clue if this ultimately amounts to anything, but for as long as Israel is bombing Gaza citizens I'm hoping that the pressure (military and publicly) continues to escalate. Ideally the message sent should culminate in "no genocide, or fight a six-front war." You do release Israel has done this before and won right?
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Oct 11, 2023 16:57
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zer0spunk posted:Those "buts" are always doing the heavy lifting ITT No whataboutism or massacre apologies needed. The massacres are atrocities, and the government of Israel is ultimately responsible.
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Oct 11, 2023 16:58
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