|
Personally, I don't think the hot-topic question should be "why isn't Egypt facilitating ethnic cleansing". I'd agree when it comes to closing the border during peacetime, but I'm not exactly furious that Egypt isn't cooperating in depopulating Gaza. If Israel wants to empty out Gaza, they can either show the world their truest form or evacuate them into Israel.
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 18:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 23:17 |
|
|
Crosby B. Alfred posted:I can't believe it's being argued at all either. The point doesn't have anything to do with the past but a group of people absolutely still had agency over their decision to go on a shooting spree despite their circumstances. It's the same sentiment as r/palestine, but oddly enough, not really in the usual places outside of that unlike in may's violence, or 2021. It also pretends that Israeli posturing isn't for their largest allies benefit in every past encounter. They have never cared about how they are received outside of that (administration-wise) The level of brutality on this has untethered that restriction, in a way that even joe biden got passionate about in his last address (which was like, oh poo poo, he can still get fired up, who knew)
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 18:17
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:Personally, I don't think the hot-topic question should be "why isn't Egypt facilitating ethnic cleansing". I'd agree when it comes to closing the border during peacetime, but I'm not exactly furious that Egypt isn't cooperating in depopulating Gaza. If Israel wants to empty out Gaza, they can either show the world their truest form or evacuate them into Israel. Giving shelter to desperate refugees isn't facilitating ethnic cleansing and depopulation. Forcing them to stay in dangerous & deadly conditions is facilitating ethnic cleansing and depopulation. When the US refused to take Jewish refugees during the Holocaust, that was an infuriating abdication of basic moral obligation, and so is every country that refuses to take Palestinian refugees at this horrible moment. It seriously seems like you prioritize these refugees staying in Gaza over them staying alive, because you say that giving them the shelter they crave is cooperating in a crime but insisting they stay in Gaza and die is not. The reason these people decide to take refuge is that they personally prioritize staying alive over staying in Gaza, and you're saying that decision should be overruled. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 18:30
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:Giving shelter to desparate refugees isn't facilitating ethnic cleansing and depopulation. Forcing them to stay in dangerous & deadly conditions is facilitating ethnic cleansing and depopulation. Thank you for saying this so I didn't have to. You are more articulate than I would have been.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 18:33
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:Giving shelter to desparate refugees isn't facilitating ethnic cleansing and depopulation. Forcing them to stay in dangerous & deadly conditions is facilitating ethnic cleansing and depopulation. Egypt isn't the only nation on the hook, they have ally states with Qatar and Iran if you don't think giving them the sinai is a viable solution (if egypt would actually give a gently caress at all about their wellbeing).
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 18:35
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:It seriously seems like you prioritize these refugees staying in Gaza over them staying alive, because you say that giving them the shelter they crave is cooperating in a crime but insisting they stay in Gaza and die is not. There's been, in general, a staggering amount of "well actually" in response to various "it's bad when people are killed and what can be done to prevent it should be done".
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 18:38
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:Giving shelter to desperate refugees isn't facilitating ethnic cleansing and depopulation. Forcing them to stay in dangerous & deadly conditions is facilitating ethnic cleansing and depopulation. I don't think "Egypt isn't opening the border" should be the focal point of the conversation. That was the point of my post. It transparently abrogates blame to the actor that isn't cooperating with the intended goal. If there are Palestinians who want to leave, then so be it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 18:41
|
|
|
zer0spunk posted:I really can't tell you how to solve it, but you aren't the first person in history to realize that conflicts continue unless you do one of two things; dismantle the enemy in such a way that they can never recover and cease to exist, or convince them to join you in a way that becoming a mutually beneficial ally with shared growth far outweighs the desire for conflict You've said yourself that not all Palestinians are Hamas. I can't speak for the Palestinians but I suspect a rather large percentage would, if given the choice between having basic human rights for their family or seeing the eradication of Israel, would opt for more rights over genocide. You don't have to negotiate with the genocidal party slaughtering civilians in order to extend human rights to their compatriots. Unless you're talking about trying to reason with Israeli hardliners. In which case, Israel is ostensibly a democracy--if the majority of Israelis are against Palestinian genocide, then vote out the fuckers who aren't and get to work. And if it turns out the majority of Israelis are for genocide and you're not... well, honestly there may very well not be a lot you can do, then, but you don't have to keep on defending them in that case.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 18:42
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:I don't think "Egypt isn't opening the border" should be the focal point of the conversation. That was the point of my post. It transparently abrogates blame to the actor that isn't cooperating with the intended goal. If there are Palestinians who want to leave, then so be it. "The conversation" - I don't know what "the conversation" is, but if you're trying to shut down any conversation about refugees needing places to take refuge, and the barbarism of any country that turns them away, I disagree. I would disagree in the context.of the Holocaust and I disagree here. It's villainous to refuse shelter to people in danger, it demands immediate reversal. You just said that Egypt opening its borders to refugees would be "facilitating ethnic cleansing" and "depopulating Gaza." Do you believe that or not? Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 18:48
|
|
|
the holy poopacy posted:You've said yourself that not are Palestinians are Hamas. I can't speak for the Palestinians but I suspect a rather large percentage would, if given the choice between having basic human rights for their family or seeing the eradication of Israel, would opt for more rights over genocide. You don't have to negotiate with the genocidal party slaughtering civilians in order to extend human rights to their compatriots. In this case I am specifically talking about hamas, as that's their whole doctrine, an ethnic cleanse. In the context of, to stop the cycle of conflict with them, you have two real options, dismantle or mutually beneficial diplomacy, but when part of their existence is refusing to do that then half your options are off the table. I don't feel comfortable excusing acts of war in some weird thread competition of are acts of terrorism equal to acts of war dissection. That's so beyond the point and just..morbid if I'm being honest. Kinda feels like this is devolving into where do you rank civilian casualties during war against civilian casualties during terrorism, with a smaller subsect of people going "HOW DO YOU DEFINE TERRORISM ANYWAY?" and we're all missing the point of discussing what's actually happening as it's happening. the concern right now, at least on the israeli side is if the north becomes active too via hezbollah, then it's a much much larger problem, especially getting people out zer0spunk fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 18:48
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:You just said that Egypt opening its borders to refugees would be "facilitating ethnic cleansing" and "depopulating Gaza." Do you believe that or not? Gently encouraging Palestinians across the border with bombs would in fact be ethnic cleansing and depopulating Gaza, even if it's preferable to genocide. I also would not personally put it past Israel to take advantage of an open crossing to step up attempts to squeeze them out. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 18:52
|
|
|
The US using its influence to facilitate the stream of refugees into Egypt instead of using its influence to get Israel to stop indiscriminately bombing Gaza sure makes it look like that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 18:54
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:You just said that Egypt opening its borders to refugees would be "facilitating ethnic cleansing" and "depopulating Gaza." Do you believe that or not? I'm not entirely sure why you're phrasing this like a gotcha? Opening the border for refugees is the morally correct & right thing to do for Egypt, but it does help Israel ethnically cleanse and depopulate Gaza. It's not like Palestinians are allowed to return to the rubble of their homes if they leave. To wit, per the UN Ethnic Cleansing - "a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.” e: and to forestall, yes I think Hamas is interested in ethnically cleansing Israel. Nancy fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 18:55
|
|
|
Nancy posted:I'm not entirely sure why you're phrasing this like a gotcha? Opening the border for refugees is the morally correct & right thing to do for Egypt, but it does help Israel ethnically cleanse and depopulate Gaza. It's not like Palestinians are allowed to return to the rubble of their homes if they leave. Because saving people from a crime is not facilitating that crime. You could literally use the same logic to say that the USA was right not to take Holocaust refugees because taking those refugees would have meant there were less Jews in Europe, contributing to the goals of the Holocaust. But forcing those Jews to return to Europe didn't impede ethnic cleansing or depopulation - virtually all those Jews died. They were never going to survive the Holocaust in Europe, the question was just whether they'd survive it in the US or perish to it in Europe. The US chose option #2, and according to Neurolimal, that's not facilitating genocide, but option #1 would be. If you're a Palestinian refugee you see two options: face mortal peril in Palestine or take refuge in another country. Egypt is saying, "no, it'll have to be mortal peril in Palestine" and Neurolimal is saying that option, the one that refuses to save these people from genocide, is the one that -doesn't- facilitate ethnic cleansing or depopulation The reason I'm responding like this is that it really seems like Neurolomal would prefer that Palestinians stay in Gaza and die there than that they leave and live. The refugees feel differently.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:04
|
|
|
I think people are viewing "facilitating a genocide' comment as being a judgment on Egypt when the reality of the matter is that nothing Egypt can do wouldn't be doing that. Facilitating is a neutral word but is almost always used in a negative context. It's a failure of communication rather than any side trying to claim that the morally correct action is to deny refugees.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:06
|
|
|
Nancy posted:I'm not entirely sure why you're phrasing this like a gotcha? Opening the border for refugees is the morally correct & right thing to do for Egypt, but it does help Israel ethnically cleanse and depopulate Gaza. It's not like Palestinians are allowed to return to the rubble of their homes if they leave. You can think whatever you want but the reality is Hamas has been open to a two-state solution for over a decade. The thorny part is that Israel has been wildly successful in their ethnic cleansing campaign and therefore any sort of just transition would require resettlement of hundreds of thousands of colonial-settlers. These settlers are committed to ethnic cleansing by any means necessary, so there really is no negotiating with Israel.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:07
|
|
|
https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/11/Hamas-armed-wing-says-it-shelled-Haifa-city-with-R-160-rocketquote:Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of Palestinian militant group Hamas, said on Wednesday it shelled the northern Israeli city of Haifa with an R-160 rocket. I'm trying to find other sources rn, but I was told that targeting haifa is new..that's a little nerve-wracking it's the third largest/densely populated city in the country (and in the north) I don't know how reliable this is, but more from the IDFs side of that- https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-no-injuries-in-suspected-drone-attack-long-range-missile-launched-from-gaza/ quote:On sirens that sounded in the Carmel region, south of Haifa, the IDF says a long-range rocket was launched from the Gaza Strip, which landed in an open area, causing no damage. I think there's going to be a lengthy investigation into how they suddenly have longer range ordnance and bomb dropping drones for the first time and who funded that proxy move. zer0spunk fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:08
|
|
|
The blame for the genocide and ethnic cleansing goes on Israel and all of the countries providing military aid and all of the countries providing cover for it. A lot of bloody hands.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:08
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I think people are viewing "facilitating a genocide' comment as being a judgment on Egypt Yes, facilitating a genocide is bad. If you say an action would be facilitating a genocide, either you're calling it evil or you don't think genocide is evil. quote:when the reality of the matter is that nothing Egypt can do wouldn't be doing that. They could take more refugees, then they'd be resisting the genocide by enabling Palestinians and Palestinian culture to survive. ImpAtom posted:It's a failure of communication rather than any side trying to claim that the morally correct action is to deny refugees. Well, let's look at the post. Neurolimal posted:Personally, I don't think the hot-topic question should be "why isn't Egypt facilitating ethnic cleansing". I'd agree when it comes to closing the border during peacetime, but I'm not exactly furious that Egypt isn't cooperating in depopulating Gaza. If Israel wants to empty out Gaza, they can either show the world their truest form or evacuate them into Israel. Do you think when Neurolimal talks about "facilitating ethnic cleansing" and "cooperating in depopulating Gaza," they think it might also be the morally correct action? Or do you think Neurolimal is opposed to "facilitating ethnic cleansing" and "cooperating in depopulating Gaza"? Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:18
|
|
|
zer0spunk posted:In this case I am specifically talking about hamas, as that's their whole doctrine, an ethnic cleanse. In the context of, to stop the cycle of conflict with them, you have two real options, dismantle or mutually beneficial diplomacy, but when part of their existence is refusing to do that then half your options are off the table. Okay, sure, root out Hamas and burn it to the ground. I'm all for it. I don't think the ends justify all possible means, but it's a good and worthwhile end and Israel is certainly more than justified in a general military response. I wish them the best of luck, not least because the faster and better they can engage Hamas the fewer Palestinian civilians get caught in the crossfire. So now Hamas is dead and gone forever, and all the good and sane people of the world can rejoice. Hooray! But as long as the material conditions that produced Hamas do not change, they will continue producing radicalized groups. Absent significant concessions to the Palestinians, the only thing that eradicating Hamas will lead to is Hamas 2.0 and more of the same. That doesn't mean that eliminating Hamas is the wrong thing to do, but in the long term it won't solve anything by itself. If Israel wants peace without resorting to genocide, then step 1 is stomp out Hamas and step 2 is rights for Palestinians. Without step 2, step 1 is just slow genocide. And to be brutally honest, step 3 is also going to be additional military force. The seeds for Hamas 2.0 have already been sown and Israel will have to deal with them even if they immediately give the non-genocidal Palestinians everything they want, it's just a question of whether the cycle continues spiraling bigger and bigger or starts shrinking. Which is going to make any peace process politically very painful, but if you don't want the blood of millions of innocents on your nation's hands then it's got to be done. the holy poopacy fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:21
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:Yes, facilitating a genocide is bad. If you say an action would be facilitating a genocide, either you're calling it evil or you don't think genocide is evil. I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Yes, I do think Neurolimal meant that in a neutral way. Maybe I'm being naive but I think this is a case of people being on the same side and a word choice making it seem more different than it is. I just have a hard time buying anyone thinks it is a genuinely negative thing to take refugees even if it works into the plans of the people causing the refugees to flee.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:23
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:23
|
|
|
When Israel says they will reduce Gaza to a tent city, in those exact words, do you think the intent is to root out Hamas or to cleanse the area of Palestinians?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:24
|
|
|
Opening borders to refugees fleeing from extermination at the hands of a genocidal regime is always humane and morally right. If you are concerned that doing so would be playing into the exterminator's hands, consider that it will also enable you to apply sanctions and other pressure tactics to the regime in question without the brunt of them being redirected to the oppressed people. To use the aforementioned historical example, if the US accepted SS St Louis, they would not only keep the Jewish refugees safe from the Nazis but also protect them from the bombs that the US proceeded to drop on the Nazis.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:26
|
|
|
the holy poopacy posted:Okay, sure, root out Hamas and burn it to the ground. I'm all for it. I don't think the ends justify all possible means, but it's a good and worthwhile end and Israel is certainly more than justified in a general military response. I wish them the best of luck, not least because the faster and better they can engage Hamas the fewer Palestinian civilians get caught in the crossfire. So now Hamas is dead and gone forever, and all the good and sane people of the world can rejoice. Hooray! We all know how this has played out in Afghanistan and no one wants that They won't occupy, it's not worth the death toll. Everytime they have, they pulled out instead of stay and occupy. I don't know how to answer that..both options to stay and make sure it doesn't happen again and then create even bigger issues or leave and let the power vaccum produce SUPER ISIS or whatever..I don't think there's any winning move. zer0spunk fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:26
|
|
|
zer0spunk posted:We all know how this has played out in Afghanistan and no one wants that How did this "play out in Afghanistan".
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:29
|
|
|
Mean Baby posted:You can think whatever you want but the reality is Hamas has been open to a two-state solution for over a decade. Hamas has not supported a two state solution for over a decade. They have been explicitly against it since they were formed. The only time it has sort of seemed ambiguous was their 2017 political document, which about 5 years old, where they said they did not support a two-state solution, but would support a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders as a starting point - with a commitment to eventually enlarging a Palestinian state from the river to the sea. They have affirmed that they do not support a two state solution several times since 2017. quote:But it does not go as far as to fully recognise Israel and says Hamas does not relinquish its goal of “liberating all of Palestine”. quote:Hamas does not support the so-called two-state solution — the creation of an independent and sovereign Palestinian state alongside Israel — as a permanent solution. It advocates for a Palestine from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, without an Israel. (Some extremists in the current right-wing Israeli government similarly believe in an Israel from the river to the sea, without Palestine. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu took a map to the United Nations General Assembly last month that appeared to formalize that vision.) https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2023-10-10/what-you-need-to-know-about-hamas https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:32
|
|
|
Zedhe Khoja posted:How did this "play out in Afghanistan". Occupying did nothing to stop the taliban regime in the end unfortunately, and a twenty-year war is not the ideal move
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:37
|
|
|
mannerup posted:I think it would help to show what Egypt has said for this discussion The rational seems to be that they prioritize the Palestinian claim on Palestine, and its political vibrancy, over the safety of actual Palestinians who want shelter and security. It reminds me of something said earlier in this thread: Neurolimal posted:If Israel wants to empty out Gaza, they can either show the world their truest form or evacuate them into Israel. "We could save you from Israel, but we won't, you have to stay there and die so people can see because then people will finally see how bad Israel is." ImpAtom posted:I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Yes, I do think Neurolimal meant that in a neutral way. I think good faith demands we assume that everyone here believes genocide is bad and that facilitating it is bad. ImpAtom posted:I just have a hard time buying anyone thinks it is a genuinely negative thing to take refugees even if it works into the plans of the people causing the refugees to flee. I share your astonishment but what they said makes very clear that they do believe this. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Oct 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:38
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1712127993361887381 ok if this actually enters a regional conflict (god forbid israel follows through with their threat to attack damascus) i think all bets are loving off
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:45
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:48
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1712127993361887381 If this is the alert from a few hours ago (the timestamp on the tweet makes me think it is), my friend who has found himself in Hadera this week with unfortunate timing for a wedding said this ended up being a false alarm e: f;b etc
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:48
|
|
|
Well thank lord Buddha for small favors
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:51
|
|
|
zer0spunk posted:We all know how this has played out in Afghanistan and no one wants that There's also the option of sitting down after the military operation is over and treating the millions of Palestinian civilians who are just trying to live their lives without becoming victims or perpetrators of genocide as if they were human beings worthy of fundamental rights, thereby removing the grievances that violent extremists use to fuel their recruitment and spur their terror campaigns. I won't pretend that it would be a miracle fix, but it would be a start.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:53
|
|
|
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/10/11/today-in-gaza-i-no-longer-believe-we-will-get-out-of-this-alive Harrowing. This inhuman brutality by israel must stop
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 19:57
|
|
|
the holy poopacy posted:There's also the option of sitting down after the military operation is over and treating the millions of Palestinian civilians who are just trying to live their lives without becoming victims or perpetrators of genocide as if they were human beings worthy of fundamental rights, thereby removing the grievances that violent extremists use to fuel their recruitment and spur their terror campaigns. I won't pretend that it would be a miracle fix, but it would be a start. The depressing thing is politically israel was starting to conceed, there was some small stablity for a minute in the region, and it looked like one of the biggest arab nations was going to normalize relations with them/recognize they exist as a state https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...8f-67fc94e40000 quote:The Defense Ministry will be expanding the number of permits it issues to Gazans allowing them to work in Israel, the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories announced on Thursday. That was september... So was this.. https://www.reuters.com/world/us-saudi-defence-pact-tied-israel-deal-palestinian-demands-put-aside-2023-09-29/ quote:Sept 29 (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia is determined to secure a military pact requiring the United States to defend the kingdom in return for opening ties with Israel and will not hold up a deal even if Israel does not offer major concessions to Palestinians in their bid for statehood, three regional sources familiar with the talks said. when i said gazans are unwitting pawns historically, it's still infuriatingly true right now..hopefully the road to coexistence is open again after hamas is removed from power
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 20:00
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1712127993361887381 As an aside, @sentdefender is a really bad source. They're not always wrong, but when they are they refuse to issue corrections or anything. Elon Musk recently promoted their work, so that's the level of professional they are. The content here seems true, those are warnings issued though, not drone attacks or whatever they're sensationalizing here. That being said, the Northern border is getting dicey. Sorry to keep posting Oz tweets but he's spent a couple days optimistically hoping Hezbollah will stay out of it, but he's posted this now. https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1712130328251236438 Israeli racist mob descends upon hospital, looking for terrorists being treated, spits on Arab staff. https://twitter.com/ran_shimoni/status/1712157237781680556 quote:At this time in Shiba Tel Hashomer: hundreds of La Familia people are walking around the various departments, cursing and spitting on staff, after a rumor spread that terrorists were being hospitalized there. https://twitter.com/ran_shimoni/status/1712162697922449612 quote:Update: The police received a report of a fight at the entrance to the emergency room, apparently this filmed event. https://twitter.com/ran_shimoni/status/1712173495549940009 quote:At the entrance to the hospital (Last few paragraphs from the following text only tweets in Hebrew) Disinformation out there right now is leading to mobs descending on hospitals and assaulting staff.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 20:03
|
|
|
At Press Conference right now: U.S. State Department says that Iran provided advanced training to some members of Hamas who were involved in the attacks and provided generic funding and weapons for the group, but initial intelligence suggests that Iran was surprised by the attack and not directly involved in planning or executing it. They were aware that Hamas would attempt an attack sometime relatively soon, but were not aware of the scale or specifics of this attack. Iran provided roughly $100 million to Hamas this past year, but didn't earmark any of it specifically for the attack as far as U.S. intelligence is aware.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 20:04
|
|
|
zer0spunk posted:The depressing thing is politically israel was starting to conceed, there was some small stablity for a minute in the region, and it looked like one of the biggest arab nations was going to normalize relations with them/recognize they exist as a state What if they’re unable to remove Hamas from power? And at what point do we all as westerners feel like a military intervention to prevent (what seems to be a widely held opinion) genocide from becoming the SOP in ways that even people currently opposed to using that kind of language would not be able to disagree with? Say it does get reduced to a tent city, is there any level of atrocity we can expect to see that drives a coalition military to intervene, or are we all just resigned to watching it happen? I think the latter is most likely. I don’t think we Americans have the stomach to call a genocide a genocide and take appropriate action. It’s just something we’ll all have to swallow and vote for unless you opt out of voting, which if you did because of ongoing support of genocide would make you seem crazy to most Americans, I’d think.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 20:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 23:17 |
|
|
https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-says-wont-back-up-beheaded-babies-disrespectful-2023-10"Business Insider" posted:On Wednesday, Insider approached Dinar again to ask if the claim would be fully investigated to provide details of the numbers and their manner of death. I'm not super well versed on this sort of thing but it seems like a pretty interesting situation where you can make extreme claims about the inhuman savagery of your enemy that are repeated wholesale by every stenographer employed by the media, and then claim its disrespectful to the dead to actually investigate any such claims. How exactly is one supposed to take this, and would it be wise to take claims made by an army about the barbarism of its enemy with a critical eye? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocity_propaganda This is a pretty useful article on wikipedia to glance through, you can read about how this exact same thing happens over and over again throughout history. Theres not a lot of reason to avoid using this form of propaganda, even if you get caught your claim will have had days to years to have had its effects. "Wiki" posted:In November 1991, a Serbian photographer claimed to have seen the corpses of 41 children, which had allegedly been killed by Croatian soldiers. The story was published by media outlets worldwide, but the photographer later admitted to fabricating his account. The story of this atrocity was blamed for inciting a desire for vengeance in Serbian rebels, who summarily executed Croatian fighters who were captured near the alleged crime scene the day after the forged report was published. Like it looks as if this photographer achieved their objective pretty well.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2023 20:10
|
|
