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Pine Cone Jones
Dec 6, 2009

You throw me the acorn, I throw you the whip!

ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

What if the paraglider dropped grenades? What if he did it by opening a box that was taped to something structural

By that definition, is a drone a light bomber?

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CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

What if the paraglider dropped grenades? What if he did it by opening a box that was taped to something structural

Nah needs a fix or movable gun emplacement that is rough shod added to be a technical.

You just describes a bomber.

Bored As Fuck
Jan 1, 2006
Fun Shoe
ISW updates, all SFW text and maps.

https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1712290741672644789?t=Wt4C01yQ4fUUHigwfj4f_w&s=19

https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1712286969974186000?t=09FnOCNYt9Ym1oz5riP0sA&s=19

https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1712282700403368231?t=_QOtg8-rbSu21stx_Qlz8w&s=19

Wombot
Sep 11, 2001

FrozenVent posted:

Periodic reminder to keep it civil and if you feel yourself getting heated - understandable considering the subject - put the phone down and go take a breath outside. The poster you were about to call an rear end in a top hat will still be there in ten minutes.

Nobody in this thread has any control over the ongoing events.

Nobody in this thread is trolling or arguing in bad faith, and if they are, they’re getting bounced as soon as a mod or IK becomes aware.

As usual, post about current events, not current posters.

I normally lurk, but this is so beyond the pale that I need to speak up - Fivemarks is absolutely not arguing in good faith. They have been saying weird poo poo since this was in the CE thread about how reports of murdered women and children are being fabricated to drum up cassus belli and carte blanche support for atrocities in return.

It has been confirmed from multiple sources that children, as young as toddlers and babies, were absolutely murdered in this attack by Hamas. That is uncontrovertible.

There have also been statements about the specific act of beheading babies. Those are seemingly from one i24 reporter, based on interviews she conducted with IDF personnel, but otherwise have been uncorroborated.

That specific nuance is important to get correct, but the posts made by Fivemarks go past that to cite from untrustworthy sites claims that seem to cast doubt on any children being murdered:

Fivemarks posted:

Huh. Looks like a bunch of early reports of Hamas atrocities were either fake, or blown out of proportion to justify a hardline "We have to kill all the vermin" stance. So, uh....

Fivemarks posted:

have you got a legitimate confirmed source that the palestineans are beheading babies? Because that's fake
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/factcheck:-israel-has-no-information-on-hamas-murdering-babi

"Factcheck: 'Israel' has no information on Hamas murdering babies"

This is laying the foundation for denying these atrocities just as we are still fighting Holocaust denial.

Hannibal Rex
Feb 13, 2010

Wombot posted:

It has been confirmed from multiple sources that children, as young as toddlers and babies, were absolutely murdered in this attack by Hamas. That is uncontrovertible.

There have also been statements about the specific act of beheading babies. Those are seemingly from one i24 reporter, based on interviews she conducted with IDF personnel, but otherwise have been uncorroborated.

Corroborated now. Sadly, but not surprisingly. We really shouldn't need to go into the specifics on how toddlers were murdered.

https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1712348194984661152?t=Lyc0LJMmt8wlEYVdmYsuxg&s=19

Borscht
Jun 4, 2011
V glad we got that cleared up. Seems pretty cut and dry now.

Radical 90s Wizard
Aug 5, 2008

~SS-18 burning bright,
Bathe me in your cleansing light~
Maybe I'm naive but I'd have thought that if it was confirmed, IDF spokespeople would be screaming it at the top of their lungs at any opportunity. It seems weird that they haven't.

That Works
Jul 22, 2006

Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy


Radical 90s Wizard posted:

Maybe I'm naive but I'd have thought that if it was confirmed, IDF spokespeople would be screaming it at the top of their lungs at any opportunity. It seems weird that they haven't.

Same

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

They did comment on it, but didn't say much other than to confirm the findings.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/wor...post_type=share

orange juche
Mar 14, 2012



Radical 90s Wizard posted:

Maybe I'm naive but I'd have thought that if it was confirmed, IDF spokespeople would be screaming it at the top of their lungs at any opportunity. It seems weird that they haven't.

Possibly because of the shocking nature of the killings, literally beheading babies is monstrous behavior.

The kids had no choice in where they were, the killings were pointless beyond shock/horror value.

Will it wind up getting brought up more? Absolutely, but maybe not at this particular second.

mrmcd
Feb 22, 2003

Pictured: The only good cop (a fictional one).

orange juche posted:

Possibly because of the shocking nature of the killings, literally beheading babies is monstrous behavior.

The kids had no choice in where they were, the killings were pointless beyond shock/horror value.

Will it wind up getting brought up more? Absolutely, but maybe not at this particular second.

I mean there's also the very real possibility that if you're going around unloading assault rifle rounds and RPGs on kids, not all the pieces are, uh, gonna stay attached.

Personally I just assume that anyone who seems deeply invested in splitting hairs about the specific tools and circumstances of how children were murdered is kinda sus.

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010

The beheading thing sounds much like the fictional war crimes propagandized in every war. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but that it fails the smell test. I have no doubt that militants killed civilians there- possibly in horrific ways that will caste new nightmares into the historical record- beheading babies takes a level of inhumanity few seem to have. The fact that the IDF is denying it, and the only source seems to be the same fake looking newscast, I don't think it happened that way.


Mosst people have no idea what happens to a human body confronted with ballistic science. 5.56 can remove limbs on an adult; shrapnel will fillet you like a trout. This very well could have been like the crimes of Haditha, where the assaulting force just fragged every room, and then swept through.

Bullets do horrible things to tiny bodies.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

bulletsponge13 posted:

The beheading thing sounds much like the fictional war crimes propagandized in every war. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but that it fails the smell test. I have no doubt that militants killed civilians there- possibly in horrific ways that will caste new nightmares into the historical record- beheading babies takes a level of inhumanity few seem to have. The fact that the IDF is denying it, and the only source seems to be the same fake looking newscast, I don't think it happened that way.


Mosst people have no idea what happens to a human body confronted with ballistic science. 5.56 can remove limbs on an adult; shrapnel will fillet you like a trout. This very well could have been like the crimes of Haditha, where the assaulting force just fragged every room, and then swept through.

Bullets do horrible things to tiny bodies.

I'm not really sure how debating exactly how the babies were murdered really changes the fact that babies were murdered, but the IDF isn't denying it anymore.

quote:

And here's another line from the Israeli military update - spokesman Jonathan Conricus says that Hamas militants did behead babies during their deadly wave of attacks at the weekend.

Conricus says a coroner who visited the aftermath of the massacre at Kibbutz Be'eri had seen the children's bodies and confirmed how they died.

"I admit it took us some time to really understand and to verify that report, and it was hard to believe that even Hamas could perform such a barbaric act," he says.

"I think we can now say, with relative confidence, that this is what Hamas did... there were bodies scattered everywhere, mutilated."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/wor...post_type=share

That Works
Jul 22, 2006

Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy


psydude posted:

I'm not really sure how debating exactly how the babies were murdered really changes the fact that babies were murdered, but the IDF isn't denying it anymore.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/wor...post_type=share

It doesn't change the fact that babies were killed, but there's a bit of a difference between "babies were killed after enemy soldiers fragged multiple rooms" vs "enemy soldiers purposefully cut heads off of children" and that BBC link doesn't really make it any clearer.

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010

psydude posted:

I'm not really sure how debating exactly how the babies were murdered really changes the fact that babies were murdered, but the IDF isn't denying it anymore.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/wor...post_type=share

It doesn't change their deaths, but allowing a false narrative on atrocities breeds more atrocities.

ThisIsJohnWayne
Feb 23, 2007
Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!



What truly sits wrong with me is people who are selective about which murdered children they get bloodthirsty over. Make no mistake, child murderers are terrorists who have all but forsaken their membership to the human species, but

There were children killed by the myanmar junta in Burma this week. A strike on a refugee camp. Airplanes and bombs. Did you notice them?

If you are going to have moral principles, you do not get to be selective.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

That Works posted:

It doesn't change the fact that babies were killed, but there's a bit of a difference between "babies were killed after enemy soldiers fragged multiple rooms" vs "enemy soldiers purposefully cut heads off of children" and that BBC link doesn't really make it any clearer.

For the record, I do agree that it's probably just the result of how bullets work, but it's notable that the IDF has stopped denying it outright.

A.o.D.
Jan 15, 2006

bulletsponge13 posted:

It doesn't change their deaths, but allowing a false narrative on atrocities breeds more atrocities.

Is it a false narrative?

That Works
Jul 22, 2006

Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy


psydude posted:

For the record, I do agree that it's probably just the result of how bullets work, but it's notable that the IDF has stopped denying it outright.

Totally agree, and I do believe it happened as well based on what we have so far. Question is was it intentional or incidental, which I think is not at all spelled out.

This is a key point and the only reason why I even chose to discuss the entire thing at all which I don't think I am up to talking about any more today :(


bulletsponge13 posted:

It doesn't change their deaths, but allowing a false narrative on atrocities breeds more atrocities.

TheWeedNumber
Apr 20, 2020

by sebmojo

bulletsponge13 posted:

The beheading thing sounds much like the fictional war crimes propagandized in every war. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but that it fails the smell test. I have no doubt that militants killed civilians there- possibly in horrific ways that will caste new nightmares into the historical record- beheading babies takes a level of inhumanity few seem to have. The fact that the IDF is denying it, and the only source seems to be the same fake looking newscast, I don't think it happened that way.


Mosst people have no idea what happens to a human body confronted with ballistic science. 5.56 can remove limbs on an adult; shrapnel will fillet you like a trout. This very well could have been like the crimes of Haditha, where the assaulting force just fragged every room, and then swept through.

Bullets do horrible things to tiny bodies.

maybe yes maybe no. we’ll see how it shakes out in the wash. Only think I know for sure is that’s how Tiger Force popped on CID’s radar in Vietnam: the point man was bragging about cutting a babies head off. And that was just Vietnam. Levels of hatred and indoc here are way higher.

I’m not saying it’s not failing the smell test over here either. The more extreme and outrageous the poo poo you can pin on the other side, real or not, the easier it is to justify even more hosed up measures against them and the population. All I’m saying is that reprehensible line is easier for a killer to cross than one might think.

TheWeedNumber
Apr 20, 2020

by sebmojo

ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

What truly sits wrong with me is people who are selective about which murdered children they get bloodthirsty over. Make no mistake, child murderers are terrorists who have all but forsaken their membership to the human species, but

There were children killed by the myanmar junta in Burma this week. A strike on a refugee camp. Airplanes and bombs. Did you notice them?

If you are going to have moral principles, you do not get to be selective.

The fledgingly New York Times did not see fit to impart this knowledge on me, as per their tag line: All the news that’s fit to print. In other words, life is cheap worldwide, only the deaths that make the news are noteworthy.

E: to be crystal clear, doesn’t mean I think less of all the victims of the ongoing genocides/war crimes happening. Your average person doesn’t even loving know about it. I have to go looking to find out what’s up in Myanmar or in the various African war zones.

TheWeedNumber fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Oct 12, 2023

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015
I Think that we should absolutely calm down and wait till we have confirmation of any war crimes and atrocities before we jump to the most extreme possible positions on stuff. Especially because there's a lot of disinformation out there, especially disinformation with the purpose of justifying turning the Gaza Strip into a mass grave.

If that makes me anti-semitic or acting in bad faith? Oh well. You kinda get used to that when you get called that for supporting anything but the most hardline zionist policies.

Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Oct 12, 2023

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010

A.o.D. posted:

Is it a false narrative?

Without confirmation, we should assume so. Considering the IDF isn't broadcasting it, I think it's safe to assume it's bamboo telegraph exaggerations. I hope I am correct, but assume I'm wrong.

ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

What truly sits wrong with me is people who are selective about which murdered children they get bloodthirsty over. Make no mistake, child murderers are terrorists who have all but forsaken their membership to the human species...
If you are going to have moral principles, you do not get to be selective.

This. So much of the public is condemning Hamas, but ignoring the fact both sides of just this conflict are in a Race to the bottom. Many of the same people lamenting those deaths are more than willing to ignore the IAF dropping apartment buildings, mosques, and schools with impunity.

I'm not trying to Whatabout, but the American media ecosystem is largely controlled by the Israeli narrative. We can't condemn one when both teams are playing by the same playbook.

TheWeedNumber
Apr 20, 2020

by sebmojo

Fivemarks posted:

I Think that we should absolutely calm down and wait till we have confirmation of any war crimes and atrocities before we jump to the most extreme possible positions on stuff. Especially because there's a lot of disinformation out there, especially disinformation with the purpose of justifying turning the Gaza Strip into a mass grave.


If that makes me anti-semitic or acting in bad faith? Oh well.

Ain’t nobody gonna wait b. Like yeah sure, true, but it’s the 21st century. 24 hour news cycle. Atrocities live on instagram and X (FORMERLY KNOWN AS TWITTER). Even knowing that the psyops folks are actively doing their thing on social media, shits still gonna get commented and speculated on, even if a few days later someone rolls in with the “WHOOPS WE’VE BEEN DUPED, anyway the Israelis just got B-52s on lend lease lol” type poo poo.

It is what it is. Even if we try, and we should try, we’re gonna slip up because the poo poo is wild and crazy and coming to us at light speed.

Don't Ask
Nov 28, 2002

Fivemarks posted:

I Think that we should absolutely calm down and wait till we have confirmation of any war crimes and atrocities before we jump to the most extreme possible positions on stuff. Especially because there's a lot of disinformation out there, especially disinformation with the purpose of justifying turning the Gaza Strip into a mass grave.


If that makes me anti-semitic or acting in bad faith? Oh well.

Hey, gently caress you.

Civilians were intentionally murdered and abducted, elderly and children alike. They were targeted at home, outside, in their cars, at a music festival, in the fields, and everywhere they could be. Those that were able to lock themselves in a safe room were burned out. Dozens if not hundreds were abducted, including elderly grandmothers and infants.

Please don't post more hezbollah funded propaganda to try and refute this.

Also gently caress you again.

TheWeedNumber
Apr 20, 2020

by sebmojo

Don't Ask posted:

Hey, gently caress you.

Civilians were intentionally murdered and abducted, elderly and children alike. They were targeted at home, outside, in their cars, at a music festival, in the fields, and everywhere they could be. Those that were able to lock themselves in a safe room were burned out. Dozens if not hundreds were abducted, including elderly grandmothers and infants.

Please don't post more hezbollah funded propaganda to try and refute this.

Also gently caress you again.

Oh hey I actually had to double check on homie’s post history. Kinda hard to keep track of the no avatar dudes when you’re tryna not get super bogged down in what’s probably gonna be the play by play documentary of an ethnic cleansing, in post form.

Didn’t realize homie was on the cspam psyops tip. Bet. gently caress you fivemarks.

Somebody fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Oct 12, 2023

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015
Given the history of this entire situation, I don't think its fair to frame the Palestinians and Hamas as uniquely evil and the Israelis as uniquely victimized.

If Hamas is evil for kidnapping the elderly, women, and children and for attacking and murdering them with weapons of war, then the Israeli state is guilty of all those very same acts. Or does it not count as kidnapping when the IDF put kids in cages, or does it not count as murder when the IDF shoots a journalist and then attacks her funeral to kill more. Does it not count as terror when Israeli police attack mosques during peaceful services? Is the murder of civilians only a problem with it is done to Israeli civilians, but the wholesale terror bombing of Gaza acceptable because they're Palestinian?

No, I think not. If its a crime when one side does it, its a crime when the other side does it, and that is why I believe we should take things with a grain of salt and a glass full of caution and reason When we're fed reports of atrocities to justify, effectively, a continuing genocide of Palestine.

McNally
Sep 13, 2007

Ask me about Proposition 305


Do you like muskets?

Fivemarks posted:

Given the history of this entire situation, I don't think its fair to frame the Palestinians and Hamas as uniquely evil and the Israelis as uniquely victimized.

Ok, I'm convinced.

gently caress off and don't come back to this thread. No last word on the matter, no goodbye. Just gently caress all the way off.

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003
SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

bulletsponge13 posted:

Without confirmation, we should assume so. Considering the IDF isn't broadcasting it, I think it's safe to assume it's bamboo telegraph exaggerations. I hope I am correct, but assume I'm wrong.

This. So much of the public is condemning Hamas, but ignoring the fact both sides of just this conflict are in a Race to the bottom. Many of the same people lamenting those deaths are more than willing to ignore the IAF dropping apartment buildings, mosques, and schools with impunity.

I'm not trying to Whatabout, but the American media ecosystem is largely controlled by the Israeli narrative. We can't condemn one when both teams are playing by the same playbook.

Yeah it absolutely reeks of the kind of non-factual stuff that spreads extremely rapidly during wars and if there was hard evidence of it it's almost unfathomable that IDF would not be making sure every human on earth had seen the evidence. For obvious reasons as just a person I hope it isn't true, but yeah investigators will do their work and we'll know soon enough. to some extent it's substantively pretty immaterial relative to the overall violence of the attack, but also the claim was made so now the claim is getting discussed

idk poo poo is depressing

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Oct 12, 2023

ThisIsJohnWayne
Feb 23, 2007
Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!



No one is arguing over what hamas did, or what they are (e; I thought, anyway. Really hope I'm not wrong). We are arguing over the israeli response. And just what + how much response can be justified, because we're all scared about more innocents getting killed since there's so many fucks around who don't give any

TheWeedNumber
Apr 20, 2020

by sebmojo

ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

No one is arguing over what hamas did, or what they are (e; I thought, anyway. Really hope I'm not wrong). We are arguing over the israeli response. And just what + how much response can be justified, because we're all scared about more innocents getting killed since there's so many fucks around who don't give any

My Spirit Otter
Jun 15, 2006


CANADA DOESN'T GET PENS LIKE THIS

SKILCRAFT KREW Reppin' Quality Blind Made American Products. Bitch.

psydude posted:

For the record, I do agree that it's probably just the result of how bullets work, but it's notable that the IDF has stopped denying it outright.

surely the idf would have nothing to gain from making stories about their current enemies cast them in a worse light

Herstory Begins Now
Aug 5, 2003
SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>
Probably a kind of futile hope, but I hope for absolutely everyone's sake Israel goes less off the deep end than the US did in the aftermath of 9/11

Jarmak
Jan 24, 2005

ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

No one is arguing over what hamas did, or what they are (e; I thought, anyway. Really hope I'm not wrong). We are arguing over the israeli response. And just what + how much response can be justified, because we're all scared about more innocents getting killed since there's so many fucks around who don't give any

Hopefully not anymore, but that jackass that just got booted absolutely was.

mrmcd
Feb 22, 2003

Pictured: The only good cop (a fictional one).

bulletsponge13 posted:

This. So much of the public is condemning Hamas, but ignoring the fact both sides of just this conflict are in a Race to the bottom. Many of the same people lamenting those deaths are more than willing to ignore the IAF dropping apartment buildings, mosques, and schools with impunity.

Yeah this is what kinda my feelings about all this. The most bloodthirsty factions on both sides are firmly in the driver's seat now and there's no obvious way this doesn't lead to months of more atrocities and war crimes by everyone.

The Israelis have pretty much announced their intention to flatten Gaza and the Egyptians have already said that they aren't letting anyone leave through their border so I guess if you're just a regular rear end person in Gaza your options are to jump into the sea or wait for the artillery to take you out.

Hamas knows this as well and wants to bait the Israelis into a protracted urban war where they can gun and run on more familiar terrain. None of those hostages are coming back alive either, because once their usefulness as bait and human shields is gone there's no reason to give them back.

TheWeedNumber
Apr 20, 2020

by sebmojo

Herstory Begins Now posted:

Probably a kind of futile hope, but I hope for absolutely everyone's sake Israel goes less off the deep end than the US did in the aftermath of 9/11

Honestly, I feel like that if they can swing it, they’re going to kill them all and wash their hands of it saying “we tried to give you all peace soooo many times.” They’ll do it just to be done with it and to remind the Arabs what happens when you try them. That’s definitely the vibe I’m getting from some of my Israeli friends, the loudest one anyway. That’s how little faith I have in Bibi and co to restrain themselves. They got a hell of a pretext and sympathy, why not go full tilt? Who’s going to loving stop them?

Most we’ll probably tell them is “make sure you jam outgoing signals, I don’t wanna see it on the gram bro.”

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

Don't Ask posted:

Civilians were intentionally murdered and abducted, elderly and children alike. They were targeted at home, outside, in their cars, at a music festival, in the fields, and everywhere they could be. Those that were able to lock themselves in a safe room were burned out. Dozens if not hundreds were abducted, including elderly grandmothers and infants.

I think it's entirely valid to ask people to wait a bit before they get completely furious since a ton of ostensibly well-reported things from the first days have turned out to be rehashed footage/pictures from other events(I believe one particularly gruesome bit about pregnant women getting hacked apart turned out to be using "evidence" from Nicaragua that was about a decade old), re-used stories with just the names and locations swapped out or entirely made up. Almost certainly some bad poo poo has happened, but considering the very strong narrative being pushed about "the Palestinians are inhuman animals, it's time to wipe them all out," I think that it's worth it to take reporting that amplifies how savage Hamas are, with a grain of salt.

ThisIsJohnWayne posted:

No one is arguing over what hamas did, or what they are. We are arguing over the israeli response. And just what + how much response can be justified, because we're all scared about more innocents getting killed since there's so many fucks around who don't give any

Yeah, Hamas are not the good guys in this, but the IDF response seems to be about as non-discriminatory as the Hamas attack in the first place. Shutting off water to the entire Gaza strip, even if you ignore everything else, is targeting literal millions of civilians.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-defense-minister-human-animals-gaza-palestine_n_6524220ae4b09f4b8d412e0a

Israeli government ministers are calling for outright starving the entire Gaza strip.

Rather than causing some sort of introspection and going: "Perhaps our dehumanization of an entire population, our policy of stealing their land and turning them into literal prisoners, causes some of them to lose their hope and dream only of hurting those they perceive as having hurt them." it instead seems to have caused a response of: "Let's see if we can finish them off properly this time."

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010

The problem is, Fivemarks has a valid points.

Isreal has spent decades doing the EXACT same poo poo as Hamas, and it gets a public pass because they have better PR. The view must be applied across both sides. Otherwise, this turns into a Fox News version of the Iraq War. THEY set the rules of engagement over the years. Hamas should conduct themselves better, but they won't as long as they feel justified by their enemy.

Handsome Ralph
Sep 3, 2004

Oh boy, posting!
That's where I'm a Viking!


McNally posted:

Ok, I'm convinced.

gently caress off and don't come back to this thread. No last word on the matter, no goodbye. Just gently caress all the way off.

I'm glad I bought you that beer in Edinburgh.

Anyways, thanks for making this subfourm a bearable place to keep up with this stuff. It honestly means a lot.

bulletsponge13 posted:

The problem is, Fivemarks has a valid points.

Isreal has spent decades doing the EXACT same poo poo as Hamas, and it gets a public pass because they have better PR. The view must be applied across both sides. Otherwise, this turns into a Fox News version of the Iraq War. THEY set the rules of engagement over the years. Hamas should conduct themselves better, but they won't as long as they feel justified by their enemy.

I don't think anyone here is giving the IDF or Israel a pass or pretending they are the "good" guys here. I don't disagree that the public narrative leans heavily in favor of giving Israel a pass or pretending that they're the reasonable party in all of this, but I don't see anyone here cheering them on.

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Soylent Pudding
Jun 22, 2007

We've got people!


Herstory Begins Now posted:

Yeah it absolutely reeks of the kind of non-factual stuff that spreads extremely rapidly during wars and if there was hard evidence of it it's almost unfathomable that IDF would not be making sure every human on earth had seen the evidence. For obvious reasons as just a person I hope it isn't true, but yeah investigators will do their work and we'll know soon enough.

To the extent we have sources reporting on the most egregious of Hamas's crimes against humanity, it's western journalists from mainstream media sources are reporting statements from front line soldiers and first responders. It's also worth noting that the IDF didn't outright deny it but simply said they didn't have enough information to confirm. Forgive me for not dredging up the links but I know at least some of those statements are in the CBS articles already posted.

I'm also not mainlining updates as they come in because I can only take so much so apologies if the above has been overtaken by new information.

Beheaded babies is obviously the most horrific and attention getting, but other western journalists have reported Israeli soldiers and first responders claiming they've seen bodies that were bound and showed signs of torture.

I'm hoping bulletsponge is right that the worst of the mutilation claims are telephone nonsense from observers unused to the grotesque and horrific injuries caused by modern weapons. I also loving hate that this is the silver lining to hope for.

Hamas forces also held some of these communities for hours upon hours and had sufficient control to exfiltrate civilian hostages. I think we have enough evidence to believe Hamas did torture and summarily execute civilian captives in areas they controlled. Humans being humans, and Hamas being what they are I think we can safely believe Hamas fighters were racking up SEAL level brutalities even if we don't know the exact details.

bulletsponge13 posted:

The problem is, Fivemarks has a valid points.

Isreal has spent decades doing the EXACT same poo poo as Hamas, and it gets a public pass because they have better PR. The view must be applied across both sides. Otherwise, this turns into a Fox News version of the Iraq War. THEY set the rules of engagement over the years. Hamas should conduct themselves better, but they won't as long as they feel justified by their enemy.

I don't think anyone here disagrees with unfairness in the media emphasizing Palestinian war crimes and emphasizing Israeli victims while downplaying Israeli war crimes and downplaying Palestinian victims.

But Hamas is an enthoreligious supremacist organization that wants a global genocide of the Jewish people. There is literally nothing Israel can do short of mass ritual suicide that Hamas won't see has justification for continued war crimes.

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