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mitztronic posted:New York Times is confirming. There is no way they are getting out of here in time, even if they did those poor people would have nothing to come back to, next few days are going to be horrendous it looks like.
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Oct 13, 2023 05:43
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Ciprian Maricon posted:Mandela and the ANC were not viewed as they now are until after the end of apartheid. I don't think there is any real basis to believe Hamas would be treated similarly to the ANC if they were only to strike military targets. The U.S. was still making Mandela get special permission to enter the country as late as 2008. Today, it is common among educated people to look upon the American Indians during the Indian Wars, or the North Vietnamese during the Vietnam War, with some degree of sympathy or at least understanding, and both of those groups were a lot more brutal towards civilians than the ANC was. A modern observer generally doesn't conflate the horrors of War In General with the broader injustices of those conflicts, and takes into consideration context, history, and the actions of belligerents on both sides. (edit: and maybe most importantly, at least tries to address the issue of causality) In contrast...
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Oct 13, 2023 05:47
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Egypt along with the rest of the Middle East has simply given up on Palestinians. I'm not quite sure they'd even be able to handle the enormous flow of refugees even they did open their borders. That's sadly a who's who of Israel's biggest enablers so don't expect much help from them, especially the U.S.
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Oct 13, 2023 05:56
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CNN posted:
This is a frightening thing for the Israeli ambassador to the UN to be saying in response to the logistical question of "how?" It smacks of a pretext for blaming the UN in part for what Israel seems prepared to perpetrate in Gaza. Seems like a reaction of blind rage and not in any way posturing for plausible deniability.
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Oct 13, 2023 06:10
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Honj Steak posted:It takes days to evacuate even small towns - evacuating a city with 1.1 million inhabitants in 24 hours is impossible. Yes, and they know that. It's the same deliberate logic as when they tell people people to go to shelters, and then bomb the shelters they themselves designated. Telling a million people to evacuate through bombed out streets in a day is what you do so that you can then say "everyone who remained and was killed was a fighter" after you liquidate the ghetto.
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Oct 13, 2023 07:03
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There really isn't much to say except that this is indefensible, monstrous and is an action entirely within Israel's control and the consequences must rest entirely on their shoulders. If Israel follows through, I hope everyone who enacts this crime and the entire chain of command that conceived, planned and directed it faces justice. The damage to Palestinian civilians from merely announcing the action will already be immense given Gaza's supply, power and water level. Brucolac fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 07:31
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The only possible appropriate response from the US forces in the area would be to bomb the IDF to prevent genocide.
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Oct 13, 2023 07:35
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Israel is going to adopt the Madagascar plan. Drive the inhabitants into the sea and ask the UN to do something about it. It’s going to end like the Warsaw ghetto. And we are all going to watch it happen.
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Oct 13, 2023 07:43
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Excuse me, I'm just a little ignorant Israeli, not wise in the ways of the international left, I have conceded many years ago that there are some forms of genocide in which the population constantly increases, there are some forms of genocide in which a region has some of the highest birthrates in the world, I mean it makes no lick of sense to me but I know this is because I am just too stupid and brainwashed to understand these things and so I concede that such genocides exists, with that said, I am a little bit confused as to how is it possible that the israeli indiscriminate death from above genocide machine didn't at any point during the 70 years of conflict murder as many civilians (or anyone at all period) like the brave hamas fighters who only target civilians out of despair did in a matter of hours on Saturday morning. How could Israel be indiscriminately shelling entire residential blocks in the most densely populated ghetto in the world and killing LESS civilians with these strikes than Hamas did when they attacked sparsely populated suburban villages using small arms infantry? how is this possible? please explain this to me, I am very dumb. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 07:51
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ronya posted:https://twitter.com/APHClarkson/status/1712530163928387609 based off the direction the money is flowing in the Chechen case, Kadyrov is not the client in that particular relationship. it's also not a case of being bombed into submission, it's a case of huge amounts of Russian money buying a favorable outcome. plus while it is effective at buying localized stability, I'd challenge anyone to find a conflict Russia has been party to in the last 20 (or for that matter 30) years that did not involve anti-regime Chechens turning up to fight against Russia. It's a real deal with the devil and while the deal has worked, the spillover of that status quo continues to be a continent spanning shitshow both within Russia and without. I mention this distinction because I remain perennially skeptical that there is some amount of force that can be formulaically applied to achieve coin success. Sometimes it works, but just as often insurgencies drag out for many, many years Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 07:59
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I will note that insisting that it's Genocide - not discrimination, not occupation, not even apartheid, but full on genocide* had exactly this long term goal - of legitimizing any "resistance" as good and proper, and claiming nothing can actually get worse (or better) for Gaza, as Israel is already genociding all the inhabitants in a concentration camp. And since Hamas is resisting genocide, that means Hamas isn't ISIS. Hamas hasn't spent the last 3 decades sabotaging the peace process because having another faction head the Palestinian state \ autonomy is unacceptable and because it aims at destroying Israel rather than ending occupation in the territories (and of course, it doesn't matter what it intends, as it's never going to destroy Israel \ it would be a good thing if it does). Hamas didn't start this massacre to sabotage peace talks Arab states have with Israel (and those talks are bad actually, anything the Palestinians get in the process will be a mere pittance) - it's the only hope of Palestinian resistance against the genocide. * But of course genocide is not the same thing as exterminating all Palestinians (in Gaza or in general), except that's exactly what it means and how the term is used when not forced to qualify. ... A bit earlier, someone asked me what the gently caress I even want: 1. The safe return of all hostages. 2. The civilians of Gaza surviving this \ being safe. 3. Everyone in the IDF surviving this \ being safe. (Yeah, I'm Israeli). 4. Every Hamas militant being killed. 5. Netanyahu and his cabinet hanging from lamp posts \ going to jail. 6. At this point, why the gently caress not wish for a secular Palestinian state co-existing with Israel. Probably not going to get any of that. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Xander77 fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 08:11
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If everyone in Gaza could teleport at will this would still be a completely unrealistic and absurd order to issue. Gaza is already one of the most densely packed places on Earth and they're supposed to cram the population into half of it? Maybe if the power and water were on and they had a month to prepare and there was global assistance and it was going to last for like 48 hours and not a second longer. This is an absurdly transparent effort to justify all the murders they're about to commit. Anyone who stayed must have been a Hamad fighter. If they weren't, well, we warned them to leave, not our fault if people chose not to listen.
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Oct 13, 2023 08:14
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Xander77 posted:I will note that insisting that it's Genocide - not discrimination, not occupation, not even apartheid, but full on genocide* had exactly this long term goal - of legitimizing any "resistance" as good and proper, and claiming nothing can actually get worse (or better) for Gaza, as Israel is already genociding all the inhabitants in a concentration camp. But in the interests of making sure you are saying what it sounds, how would you characterise the recent directive? What are the likely consequences of it and what groups are likely to be most directly and immediately affected?
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Oct 13, 2023 08:23
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Excuse me, I'm just a little ignorant Israeli, not wise in the ways of the international left, I have conceded many years ago that there are some forms of genocide in which the population constantly increases, there are some forms of genocide in which a region has some of the highest birthrates in the world, I mean it makes no lick of sense to me but I know this is because I am just too stupid and brainwashed to understand these things and so I concede that such genocides exists, with that said, I am a little bit confused as to how is it possible that the israeli indiscriminate death from above genocide machine didn't at any point during the 70 years of conflict murder as many civilians (or anyone at all period) like the brave hamas fighters who only target civilians out of despair did in a matter of hours on Saturday morning. Official UN numbers for the deaths in Gaza put the toll at 1100 now, not counting the victims of the pogroms in the West Bank. At best that is parity with the Israeli deaths in the initial attack. In reality that is only the confirmed number and it is a day old. With absolute certainty we can already say it was an undercount, by virtue of the weapons Israel is using and the environment it is deploying them in. The count of the wounded was approaching double for the Palestinians. And before the laughable warning from the IDF last night, the number of displaced people within Gaza was in excess of a third of a million. Your glib derision and one-upmanship when talking about the deaths of innocent people is offensive, grotesque, and abhorrent. You should feel shame.
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Oct 13, 2023 08:27
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Excuse me, I'm just a little ignorant Israeli, not wise in the ways of the international left, I have conceded many years ago that there are some forms of genocide in which the population constantly increases, there are some forms of genocide in which a region has some of the highest birthrates in the world, I mean it makes no lick of sense to me but I know this is because I am just too stupid and brainwashed to understand these things and so I concede that such genocides exists, with that said, I am a little bit confused as to how is it possible that the israeli indiscriminate death from above genocide machine didn't at any point during the 70 years of conflict murder as many civilians (or anyone at all period) like the brave hamas fighters who only target civilians out of despair did in a matter of hours on Saturday morning. The black population of South Africa grew during apartheid.
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Oct 13, 2023 08:34
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Xander77 posted:I will note that insisting that it's Genocide - not discrimination, not occupation, not even apartheid, but full on genocide* had exactly this long term goal - of legitimizing any "resistance" as good and proper, and claiming nothing can actually get worse (or better) for Gaza, as Israel is already genociding all the inhabitants in a concentration camp.
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Oct 13, 2023 08:49
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Xander77 posted:
Hamas actually sticks to the peace process when Israel deigns to bother with it, Israel is the party that constantly tosses it aside whenever it's convenient
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Oct 13, 2023 09:14
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Excuse me, I'm just a little ignorant Israeli, not wise in the ways of the international left, I have conceded many years ago that there are some forms of genocide in which the population constantly increases, there are some forms of genocide in which a region has some of the highest birthrates in the world, I mean it makes no lick of sense to me but I know this is because I am just too stupid and brainwashed to understand these things and so I concede that such genocides exists, with that said, I am a little bit confused as to how is it possible that the israeli indiscriminate death from above genocide machine didn't at any point during the 70 years of conflict murder as many civilians (or anyone at all period) like the brave hamas fighters who only target civilians out of despair did in a matter of hours on Saturday morning. Are there not enough deaths to your satisfaction then? Do you want them to pack in a little closer together so more people get torn to shreds per bomb? Are you concerned about the efficiency and schedule by which the Israeli state conducts its genocide? gently caress you.
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Oct 13, 2023 09:50
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reignonyourparade posted:Hamas actually sticks to the peace process when Israel deigns to bother with it, Israel is the party that constantly tosses it aside whenever it's convenient I think you’re confusing ceasefires and the peace process. Israel does tend to be the one to break ceasefires and initiate violence from my understanding. Hamas isn’t really engaged in the peace process though so I can’t say they’re either sticking to it or sabotaging it except insomuch as their general existence is a rationale Israel uses to not engage with the peace process (but lol if you think Israel would be proceeding with the peace process if Hamas didn’t exist. I mean maybe they are referring to Hamas involvement in the second intifada setting back the peace process at the time?
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Oct 13, 2023 10:01
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DelilahFlowers posted:Why should the IDF who massacred thousands of children being spared here? If anything, the IDF should be completely dissolved for its terrorist acts ... The focus here (and elsewhere in Western media) seems to be on the massacre at the festival. In Israeli online spaces, there's more of a focus on Kibbutz Be'eri. Both because of the details of the massacre, but also because it's a kibbutz full of the accursed leftists (yes, near the Gaza border. Within the Green Line, for all that it matters to anyone. Been there for 70 years). Many \ most of the victims were all for the peace process. Some volunteered at B'Tselem or other for Israeli-Palestinian NGOs. A number worked directly with the Gazan population. That didn't matter. For the Hamas, they were all settlers. For a certain type of right-wing shithead, that is incredibly encouraging.
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Oct 13, 2023 10:09
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Excuse me, I'm just a little ignorant Israeli, not wise in the ways of the international left, I have conceded many years ago that there are some forms of genocide in which the population constantly increases, there are some forms of genocide in which a region has some of the highest birthrates in the world, I mean it makes no lick of sense to me but I know this is because I am just too stupid and brainwashed to understand these things and so I concede that such genocides exists, with that said, I am a little bit confused as to how is it possible that the israeli indiscriminate death from above genocide machine didn't at any point during the 70 years of conflict murder as many civilians (or anyone at all period) like the brave hamas fighters who only target civilians out of despair did in a matter of hours on Saturday morning. I've been reading this stupid thread for a very long time now and stayed out of it because I'm from the region, and I find it interesting that many posters over the past week just keep debating back and forth on whether Israel is justified in their hosed up abhorrent bullshit or if the extremist arms of Hamas et al are justified in their abhorrent bullshit. It's all loving abhorrent. And it's all because of religious extremism and the vie for power at the expense of literally everyone else. Also, if I was born and raised in an open-air prison with limited basic needs to survive and lack of proper education, and my father grew up in that exact same situation, and my grandfather did so as well, I know that the chances will be higher that I turn to extremist views and no regard for human life, especially of those who are causing my grief and suffering and those of everyone around me. Why? Because I wouldn't know any better - I wouldn't be "thinking long-term" consequences and I sure as gently caress wouldn't be thinking I'm just going to very strategically attack military targets only. No. Everyone who directly (the government and their army) or indirectly (the settlers who took over my home) will be an open target because I wouldn't know any better. I would only see my oppressors as enemies, all of them. It's poo poo, but it's true. Even educated folks can turn to mindless violence if they are aggrieved for the pettiest of things. Israel's government enabled the situation where every single one of their prisoners will grow up to hate them with fiery passion, the major Western powers loving allowed it, and the mainstream media pushed it onto everyone else. Why the bloody gently caress else would anyone even think about publicly releasing footage and images of murdered children? What stupid government would allow that to happen? For Netanyahu to justify his bullshit even more? They didn't need that - the destruction and genocide of millions started decades ago and no one in power gave a poo poo or had the courage to do anything about it. The GCC countries stopped giving a poo poo and started courting Israel because they have the money, so no, the Palestinians can't even rely on Arabs to help them. Iran is in it only for power. Like, what the gently caress else are the Palestinians supposed to do? We're supposed to just...die, that's what. Like, there's no loving answer and there never will be until the fucks from both sides put their dumb fundamentalist ideologies aside. Violence begets violence and god died a long loving time ago. Not their Torah nor their Qur'an is going to save them like they think it will. I just wanted to vent somewhere, so I do apologise if I've come off harsh to anyone who doesn't deserve it (some do). I don't agree with what Hamas did and I most definitely will never agree with the Israeli government's continuous existence in it's current form and the absolute terror they commit. I get very emotional about this conflict for obvious reasons. People I know got out, but a lot of their families... didn't.
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Oct 13, 2023 10:17
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BeefThief posted:This is a frightening thing for the Israeli ambassador to the UN to be saying in response to the logistical question of "how?" It smacks of a pretext for blaming the UN in part for what Israel seems prepared to perpetrate in Gaza. Seems like a reaction of blind rage and not in any way posturing for plausible deniability. And it was a very milquetoast diplomatic conversation too, mainly 'seeking clarity', not really condemning. Israel is looking to shore up domestic support by painting anyone outside who is not 100% behind their genocidal actions as against them. And it'll work in the short term (in terms of domestic support). In the longer term though such a stance is self-destructive and will alienate people/governments that might prefer to sit on the fence.
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Oct 13, 2023 10:21
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good points all, perhaps it would be advantageous if instead of echoing idiotic genocide and DTI talking points for a decade we would have focused on the reality that whether Israel should exist or not it does in fact not only exist but is the only state that exists between the river to sea and that as such it is incumbent upon the Israeli state to provide representation and basic human rights to its entire civilian population.
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Oct 13, 2023 10:22
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emanresu tnuocca posted:good points all, perhaps it would be advantageous if instead of echoing idiotic genocide and DTI talking points for a decade we would have focused on the reality that whether Israel should exist or not it does in fact not only exist but is the only state that exists between the river to sea and that as such it is incumbent upon the Israeli state to provide representation and basic human rights to its entire civilian population. It's a bad idea to not acknowledge that genocides are genocides. It is, indeed, incumbent upon the Israeli government to provide for the wellbeing of their populace and, instead, they've chosen to focus on helping half and crushing the other through various means including ethnic cleansing and genocide.
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Oct 13, 2023 10:30
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https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3237845/israeli-diplomat-attacked-beijing-street SCMP reporting video on twitter; obviously this is a video of someone getting stabbed so content warning: /pingzhang632/status/1712750688185249883 There's a dim view of Kunming attack mimickry in general but I doubt China will amend its domestic messaging for now
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Oct 13, 2023 11:03
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emanresu tnuocca posted:good points all, perhaps it would be advantageous if instead of echoing idiotic genocide and DTI talking points for a decade we would have focused on the reality that whether Israel should exist or not it does in fact not only exist but is the only state that exists between the river to sea and that as such it is incumbent upon the Israeli state to provide representation and basic human rights to its entire civilian population. The failure to provide representation and basic human rights to its entire civilian population on such an egregious scale is the reason the nation of Israel should be destroyed. Keeping two million people - mostly children! - in a ghetto for decades justifies any and all violence the prisoners inflict upon their captors. Peaceful protests have been met with sniper fire and brutality. Israel has total responsibility here; every drop of blood spilled can be directly blamed on the people of Israel. Every death, from a Hamas militant's blade or an Israeli bomb, is the fault of the people of Israel and they should face a reckoning for it.
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Oct 13, 2023 11:10
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Bel Shazar posted:It's a bad idea to not acknowledge that genocides are genocides. It is, indeed, incumbent upon the Israeli government to provide for the wellbeing of their populace and, instead, they've chosen to focus on helping half and crushing the other through various means including ethnic cleansing and genocide. This 100%.
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Oct 13, 2023 11:19
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It looks like the “24 hours” part is being walked back or was never true. Source looks like a translation from German and is being discussed in this thread: https://reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/g2yt0RbcM2
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Oct 13, 2023 11:44
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Nix Panicus posted:The failure to provide representation and basic human rights to its entire civilian population on such an egregious scale is the reason the nation of Israel should be destroyed. Keeping two million people - mostly children! - in a ghetto for decades justifies any and all violence the prisoners inflict upon their captors. Peaceful protests have been met with sniper fire and brutality. Israel has total responsibility here; every drop of blood spilled can be directly blamed on the people of Israel. Every death, from a Hamas militant's blade or an Israeli bomb, is the fault of the people of Israel and they should face a reckoning for it. And every Israeli holds equal responsibility? Regardless of age or political inclination? And even non Israelis that were visiting or in the country for a rave hold equal responsibility?
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Oct 13, 2023 11:44
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Just out of curiosity, why is the median age in Gaza so insanely low? Like, I can guess the generalities (Gaza is not an environmental readily conducive to human life for a billion different reasons), but I'm curious about the exact demographic pressures and wondered if anyone had provided more detailed specifics on what the biggest factors affecting it were.
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Oct 13, 2023 11:53
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Fair. Only the government, IDF, former IDF, IDF support staff, zionists, and settlers bear responsibility Although Israel seems to have no problems with indiscriminate bombing and shooting children, so it seems weird to hold Hamas, with less equipment and less training, to a higher standard Maybe we could supply Hamas with precision weapons so they only hit the bad guys? E: As for tourists, I feel bad for them, but visiting the site of an ongoing genocide seems ghoulish at best. They were taking their lives into their own hands by going to Israel. Maybe Israel should take responsibility and shut down their tourism industry until they've restored peace and dignity to the Palestinians. Israel had a duty to warn the tourists away from danger and they failed. As with everything, its Israel's fault. Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 11:53
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coelomate posted:It looks like the “24 hours” part is being walked back or was never true. Source looks like a translation from German and is being discussed in this thread: https://reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/g2yt0RbcM2 This is the original quote translated by google: The IDF spokesman informed that he sent a message to the residents of Gaza City and called on them to evacuate their homes, move south for their protection and settle in the area south of the Gaza River, as described on the map. "The terrorist organization Hamas has started a war against Israel, Gaza City is an area where military activity takes place. This evacuation is for your personal safety," the residents were informed. "It will be possible to return to Gaza only after a notification confirming this. Hamas terrorists are hiding in Gaza in tunnels under houses, and inside buildings. For your personal safety and the safety of your families, distance yourself from the Hamas terrorists who use you as a human shield. The IDF will continue to act significantly, and wishes to avoid harming civilians." Seems vile imo
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Oct 13, 2023 11:56
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Has there ever been a time where Israel wasn't trying, at the very least, to slowly crush Palestine out of existence? Like, was there ever a point where there was an actual, legitimate hope that the two states could exist peacefully, or was it just always downhill and the world just turned a blind eye to Israel?
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Oct 13, 2023 11:59
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Nix Panicus posted:The failure to provide representation and basic human rights to its entire civilian population on such an egregious scale is the reason the nation of Israel should be destroyed. Keeping two million people - mostly children! - in a ghetto for decades justifies any and all violence the prisoners inflict upon their captors. Peaceful protests have been met with sniper fire and brutality. Israel has total responsibility here; every drop of blood spilled can be directly blamed on the people of Israel. Every death, from a Hamas militant's blade or an Israeli bomb, is the fault of the people of Israel and they should face a reckoning for it. No, it doesn’t. We have two primary distinctions in moral and legal justification in going to war, jus ad bellum or the right to go to war and jus in bello aka the right conduct of prosecuting that war. War, even conducted as morally and completely legally, is horrific and civilians will suffer therefore there must be a legitimate reason for going to war. I don’t think anyone here is arguing that the Palestinians lack a valid reason. However the laws themselves of how you conduct a war, are not optional and you don’t get to ignore them even if your adversary is. There is no justification for murdering a baby in cold blood, not even an eye for an eye. The perpetrators still have agency and are still the ones immediately responsible for their own actions. Maybe when you say “their captors” you mean the IDF, but from the tone of your post it seems like you’re advocating war crimes against all Israelis. Not all Israelis are to blame for Israel’s occupation - are you going to blame members of Rabbis for Peace who have used their own bodies to shield Palestinians from settler attacks as being at fault for the transgressions of their country? Even right-wing assholes who vote for Netanyahu may be considered culpable of supporting a racist government, but as long as they are civilians they are not fair game for indiscriminate killing.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:02
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Randalor posted:Has there ever been a time where Israel wasn't trying, at the very least, to slowly crush Palestine out of existence? Like, was there ever a point where there was an actual, legitimate hope that the two states could exist peacefully, or was it just always downhill and the world just turned a blind eye to Israel? I think the assassination of Rabin was probably the last off-ramp for a less bleak outcome
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Oct 13, 2023 12:03
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I considered posting this in some thread in Rapidly Going Deaf, but I had the misfortune of this popping in my podcast feed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6VCF_csmDg Don't judge me on my feeds, I've collected a bunch over the years without doing much background vetting just to get something to listen. I have to get this lovely post out of my 3 hour sleep deprived angry chest because I found a single critical take on this episode on the Internet and it's driving me insane, because surely I can't be off-base for thinking large parts of this episode are just downright vile, surely? Trying to find a text version of the entire thing, someone on Destiny's (this is not an endorsement of him) subreddit transliterated parts of the episode. quote:Imagine the Israelis using their own women and children as human shields against Hamas. Recognize how unthinkable this would be, not just for the Israelis to treat their own civilians this way, but for them to expect their enemies would be deterred by such a tactic given who their enemies already are. Israel doesn't need to. They have overwhelming advantage in firepower, organization and technology. That is not to say Hamas and other "enemies of Israel", as he puts in the very end, would be deterred by such an action, I'll grant that. Although the surrounding nations and their relations have changed since the hot wars between them. quote:But if they do, these will be exceptions that prove the rule, which is that Israel remains a lonely outpost of civilized ethnics in the absolute moral wasteland that is the Middle East. I'm not going to and try and make an objective analysis on the "civilized ethics and morality" of each Middle Eastern nation, regime, and its peoples but this seems painting a very questionable generalization of all the people in Middle East. quote:To deny that the government of Israel with all of its flaws is better than Hamas, to deny that Israeli culture with all of its flaws is better than the Palestinian culture in its attitude toward violence, is to deny that moral progress itself is possible. What the gently caress. He's just absolutely equivocating Palestine, its people and Hamas together. That seems obscene to me. And widely defining Palestinian "culture to violence" be what Hamas does by its violence. Also, the relative environments perpetuated by Israel itself are, surpisingly, a breeding ground for dissatisfied, violent people compared to the relative lap of luxury Israelis are living in, no surprise there! He also claims Gaza "is not and has not been under occupation" for 20 years" in the beginning, which is just obscene. Maybe my sources are showing, but as far as I'm aware, one does not for example freely leave (and return) to Gaza. I am not condoning violence towards civilians, Israelis or otherwise. I am not saying Hamas is in any way an acceptable organization. But this entire screed ignores how Palestinians are treated in Israel and the history of the conflict and the incredible power imbalance between Israel and her (non-state) enemies/entities. One could criticize the history of Israel and how it was founded but I am not going to claim I have answers there, and that's in the past. These peoples are in the region now and all of them have right to exist there now, but it is the history which created and festered these conflicts, and today Israel is the stronger participant which basically propped up Hamas in lieu of other alternatives in Palestine. Netanyahu himself has been recorded in saying Hamas is a favorable outcome for Israel because it basically legitimizes Israel's use of violence to render any peaceful solution for Palestinians and their self determination impossible. Maybe it would have been difficult or impossible even with "best efforts", but we can definitely say best efforts have not been made by Israel for the past 20 years or so now. Checking criticisms on Sam Harris, I see allegations of Islamophobia. Them being done by a crank like Chomsky who's lost it on many counts these days and the absolute bellend Greenwald would make me disregard them entirely, but judging by this episode I'd reconsider my opinion. Talking of annoying individuals of publicity and since he's been mentioned before in the thread I've been surprised how even keeled Hasan Piker's takes on the situation have been, especially compared to his absolutely piss poor takes on the Ukrainian conflict, especially in the beginning. And maybe I'm showing my colours for being a terrible human being, but I can't be sure that I wouldn't be advocating for razing of Gaza even if I had largely similar upbringing as I have had in my home country had I been born in Israel, just for the selfish desire for safety (no matter how false a hope for such an outcome would be). Maybe just thinking like this shows I'm naturally more prone to feeling empathy for Israelis. Just to say I don't want to be looking at this situation from high above and claiming myself as morally superior posting on the Internet. Dessel fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 12:05
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Nix Panicus posted:
Like in last week's attacks? AK's are pretty precise after all, you can clearly see if it's shooting a soldier or a baby.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:07
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Randalor posted:Has there ever been a time where Israel wasn't trying, at the very least, to slowly crush Palestine out of existence? Like, was there ever a point where there was an actual, legitimate hope that the two states could exist peacefully, or was it just always downhill and the world just turned a blind eye to Israel? Not really - the best offer they ever gave the Palestinians was total dogshit. Dessel posted:Checking criticisms on Sam Harris, I see allegations of Islamophobia. Them being done by a crank like Chomsky who's lost it on many counts these days and the absolute bellend Greenwald would make me disregard them entirely, but judging by this episode I'd reconsider my opinion. Talking of annoying individuals of publicity and since he's been mentioned before in the thread I've been surprised how even keeled Hasan Piker's takes on the situation have been, especially compared to his absolutely piss poor takes on the Ukrainian conflict, especially in the beginning. Someone losing it now matters not if they were right on about this topic which Chomsky was/is. Finkelstein's incredible work on Palestine doesn't suddenly go in the dumpster because of him going antiwoke weirdo recently. Harris is fairly notoriously an Islamophobe which has been know to anyone who's even semi-followed him in the post-9/11 days. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvdLY1ugyCo Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 12:08
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team overhead smash posted:Maybe when you say “their captors” you mean the IDF, but from the tone of your post it seems like you’re advocating war crimes against all Israelis. Not all Israelis are to blame for Israel’s occupation - are you going to blame members of Rabbis for Peace who have used their own bodies to shield Palestinians from settler attacks as being at fault for the transgressions of their country? Even right-wing assholes who vote for Netanyahu may be considered culpable of supporting a racist government, but as long as they are civilians they are not fair game for indiscriminate killing. I blame all members and former members of the IDF, the government, settlers, and advocates of zionism. Whatever sliver of the adult population is left I have the greatest of sympathies for, but any harm that comes to them is their government's fault. quote:However the laws themselves of how you conduct a war, are not optional and you don’t get to ignore them even if your adversary is. There is no justification for murdering a baby in cold blood, not even an eye for an eye. The perpetrators still have agency and are still the ones immediately responsible for their own actions. So we agree Israel should be punished heavily for their indiscriminate bombing campaign and their decades of shooting Palestinian kids. Good. No matter what metric you use, Israel is considerably worse than Hamas, and whatever justice you think Hamas should face should be meted out a thousand times over on Israel. Currently Israel is indiscriminately bombing civilians as mass punishment, so a thousand times that on the Israeli population and you're in the neighborhood of justice. CeeJee posted:Like in last week's attacks? AK's are pretty precise after all, you can clearly see if it's shooting a soldier or a baby. You would think Israelis, who have significantly better gear and certainly better optics, would also be able to make that distinction. Alas. E: Everyone wants Palestine and Hamas to be *better* than the murderous, indiscriminate Israelis, despite the Palestinians having a thousandth of the power of Israel. You want Palestine to forego justice and show unearned mercy to their tormentors in exchange for nothing, while Israel continues to murder and maraude unchecked. Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 12:10
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| # ? May 19, 2024 19:51 |
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Can we please pull our collective heads out of our asses for a minute and realise that a country, a nation or any kind of group or society is more than just a collection of individuals. If I say I hate this specific country, that doesn't mean I hate you, a member of said country or everyone involved in the country. It's not even about the leadership or their individual person, it's about the system, the rules, the connective tissue, excuses used. Like come the gently caress on, I thought we are intellectual enough to be above the common "you hate Israel? That means you want every Israelite dead" talking point by now. Bholder fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 12:12
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