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Bholder posted:Like come the gently caress on, I thought we are intellectual enough to be above the common "you hate Israel? That means you want every Israelite dead" talking point by now. Also: .... The internet is currently is full of Gazan civilians and kids celebrating and supporting the massacre, used to justify their death.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:20
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Bholder posted:Can we please pour our collective heads out of our asses for a minute and realise that a country, a nation or any kind of group or society is more than just a collection of individuals. This is worth keeping in mind, yeah. If it's not clear to any Israeli goons in the thread; the vast majority of people in the thread don't want you dead, and don't hate you (unless you've recently moved to an Israeli settlement from New Jersey, in which case there might be some hate). I understand that it can feel that way, but most of us subscribe to the belief that everyone is a product of their environment, and Israel is an extraordinarily propagandized environment. It might as well be a lab experiment for creating an incredibly paranoid populace. We don't want people in Israel killed, despite the glib snipes, but Israel in its current form should not exist.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:20
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Nix Panicus posted:Fair. Only the government, IDF, former IDF, IDF support staff, zionists, and settlers bear responsibility I completely disagree that Israel is being held to a higher standard. Not a single poster here thinks what Israel is doing is less bad than what Hamas did and you won't find posts to the contrary. If you handed any random poster here a magic button that would have Netanyahu and the IDF leadership in front of an international court for war crimes, every poster I've seen here would smash that button so hard they'd break their hand. If I'm wrong, fine, but that's the dominant sentiment I've seen here. On the other hand, Hamas is responsible for their own actions and tactical decisions. You think they didn't know they were sending troops to a rave? A rave with lots of tourists at it? I don't think they're that dumb. And don't equate Palestinians to Hamas here; Hamas leadership isn't even in Gaza and that's who I'm talking about. Also, where's your theory of mind? Ghoulish? People are loving dumb. You and I are drat well aware of how monstrous Israel is, but the German girl with dreadlocks probably just saw an opportunity to do molly in the desert and post about "peace". Nix Panicus posted:E: Everyone wants Palestine and Hamas to be *better* than the murderous, indiscriminate Israelis, despite the Palestinians having a thousandth of the power of Israel. You want Palestine to forego justice and show unearned mercy to their tormentors in exchange for nothing, while Israel continues to murder and maraude unchecked. Or I just don't think two wrongs make a right. Shooting dipshit tourists that went to a bad place to do molly and listen to bad music isn't justice. I don't think "justice" is a blank check. Decon fucked around with this message at 12:31 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 12:21
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CeeJee posted:Like in last week's attacks? AK's are pretty precise after all, you can clearly see if it's shooting a soldier or a baby. This is a false equivalence. Yes, the people pulling triggers are to blame there, and the larger Hamas organization bears responsibility too depending on how planned this was. However, that is something that can be compared to a border guard shooting a doctor, not indirect fire. If a bunch of people grab guns and massacre a crowd, it's largely the fault of those people. If a state with a formal, cohesive government and no direct incoming fire decides to take a round from a state run factory, drive it to a state run military base, put it into a state owned mortar, have military representatives of the state who are miles from any danger decide where to put the round, and finally firing it into a bunch of civilians then the person who pressed the final button isn't the guilty party, the State is. I don't know that a discussion of who is "worse" is that productive. But the fact of the matter is that it's a situation where one side is being largely perpetrated by individuals while the other is being done by a state, and there's absolutely no way that the State is going to allow itself to be dismantled. VVV Infants were not holding Gaza hostage. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 12:31
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Xander77 posted:The internet is currently is full of Gazan civilians and kids celebrating and supporting the massacre, used to justify their death. Gaza has every right to celebrate the deaths of their tormentors. If you find that idea offensive, take it up with the decades of Israeli security forces brutalizing and shooting them. I'm sure the people in the concentration camps cheered when their nazi captors died. Its Israel's fault. Decon posted:I completely disagree that Israel is being held to a higher standard. Not a single poster here thinks what Israel is doing is less bad than what Hamas did and you won't find posts to the contrary. If you handed any random poster here a magic button that would have Netanyahu and the IDF leadership in front of an international court for war crimes, every poster I've seen here would smash that button so hard they'd break their hand. If I'm wrong, fine, but that's the dominant sentiment I've seen here. I actually said Hamas is being held to a higher standard than Israel. You can tell because several people have opined that Hamas should be destroyed while also trying to defend the considerably worse IDF, including you because you seem to think the war crimes tribunal should stop at leadership, or that the war crimes are a recent thing and not the raison d'etre of the IDF since its inception. Every member of the IDF, past or present, should be imprisoned at best. Decon posted:On the other hand, Hamas is responsible for their own actions and tactical decisions. You think they didn't know they were sending troops to a rave? A rave with lots of tourists at it? I don't think they're that dumb. And don't equate Palestinians to Hamas here; Hamas leadership isn't even in Gaza and that's who I'm talking about. No, I think they didnt know, because the operation was planned out long before the rave made the decision to locate there. Israel had a duty of safety and they failed. Tourism in Israel is unconscionable. Shut it all down.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:33
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CuddleCryptid posted:This is a false equivalence. Yes, the people pulling triggers are to blame there, and the larger Hamas organization bears responsibility too depending on how planned this was. However, that is something that can be compared to a border guard shooting a doctor, not indirect fire. Yeah, the state's also responsible for when their prison population riots and kills a bunch of people surrounding the prison. That doesn't excuse the people doing the killing, but the government is the one most at fault.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:36
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Nix Panicus posted:Gaza has every right to celebrate the deaths of their tormentors. If you find that idea offensive, take it up with the decades of Israeli security forces brutalizing and shooting them. I'm sure the people in the concentration camps cheered when their nazi captors died. Its Israel's fault. But thing is, they are celebrating the death of ravers and even wild stuff such as the injury of a ambulance van driver. Those who spent time in concentration camps went after actual Nazis whom we directly responsible for the holocaust, not Klaus who happened to be a rifleman and mediocre cook on the Eastern Front.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:38
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Xander77 posted:I will note that insisting that it's Genocide - not discrimination, not occupation, not even apartheid, but full on genocide* had exactly this long term goal - of legitimizing any "resistance" as good and proper, and claiming nothing can actually get worse (or better) for Gaza, as Israel is already genociding all the inhabitants in a concentration camp. Also, a two state solution seems to have been made largely unworkable over the years, with Palestinian territory being chopped up into dozens of enclaves, and no one thinking it's realistic (or ethical) to deport over 700.000 colonists. It's gonna have to be one big state with jews having to learn to respect other people's democratic rights.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:40
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:But thing is, they are celebrating the death of ravers and even wild stuff such as the injury of a ambulance van driver. Those who spent time in concentration camps went after actual Nazis whom we directly responsible for the holocaust, not Klaus who happened to be a rifleman and mediocre cook on the Eastern Front. The Palestinians are literally in the concentration camp, right now. The fact that Isreal finds it politically convenient to let the nastiest inmates run the camp doesn't obviate the fact that it's a concentration camp.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:42
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Nix Panicus posted:I blame all members and former members of the IDF, the government, settlers, and advocates of zionism. Whatever sliver of the adult population is left I have the greatest of sympathies for, but any harm that comes to them is their government's fault. So you just to confirm, you don’t think that the traditional distinction of civilian and military laid out in treaties like the Geneva Conventions with only the former being legitimate military targets is correct and that in fact anyone who offers civic support to Israel is a legitimate target? And that Hamas militants have no responsibility for their war crimes as, again contrary to all international law which doesn’t give a get-out clause for committing abominable crimes? quote:So we agree Israel should be punished heavily for their indiscriminate bombing campaign and their decades of shooting Palestinian kids. Good. I believe the people directly culpable and responsible in Israel (e.g. soldiers, commanders, politicians) should be punished, which should ideally be being tried before an international court and put in prison for the rest of their lives. I don’t believe the majority of Israel should be tortured and raped to death because they in some way support the Israeli government and once someone has committed war crimes against you it’s a-okay to commit as many war crimes as you want. Palestinian rights are human rights. The very moral and legal framework which makes Israel’s actions detestable is the same framework you are destroying when you condone war crimes against Israelis. Bholder posted:Can we please pull our collective heads out of our asses for a minute and realise that a country, a nation or any kind of group or society is more than just a collection of individuals. Generally I think this is fine, but the conversation has specifically revolved around someone who was blaming the Israelis and the people of Israel and when asked for clarification seems to have doubled down that he is a-okay with committing war crimes against the majority of the Israeli civilian population.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:44
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Nix Panicus posted:I actually said Hamas is being held to a higher standard than Israel. You can tell because several people have opined that Hamas should be destroyed while also trying to defend the considerably worse IDF, including you because you seem to think the war crimes tribunal should stop at leadership, or that the war crimes are a recent thing and not the raison d'etre of the IDF since its inception. Every member of the IDF, past or present, should be imprisoned at best. I brainfarted and meant to say Hamas there. If you're gonna argue against things you feel I implied by not explicitly saying them, I'm just gonna let you yell at other people lol. I felt I suggested giving the IDF the same treatment the Nazis got after WWII (but I feel like this will still be me "defending the IDF" to you), but I guess that didn't come across. Nix Panicus posted:No, I think they didnt know, because the operation was planned out long before the rave made the decision to locate there. Israel had a duty of safety and they failed. Tourism in Israel is unconscionable. Shut it all down. Eh, reading more on it, yeah maybe. But who then was their target? Families in their homes in the nearby town? Yeah, tourism to Israel is unconscionable, but what are you and I gonna do about it besides scream into the void? I have exactly 0 people in my life that would consider it and all my friends and family already agree that Israel is monstrous. People still choose Israel for their vacations and music festivals, and it's dumb as gently caress, but here we are.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:46
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Nix Panicus posted:Gaza has every right to celebrate the deaths of their tormentors. I think this should be prefaced with the fact that, correctly or incorrectly (most in here would say incorrectly), Palestinians as a whole likely aren't differentiating between: - IDF planes airstriking Gazan utilities - IDF snipers erasing an entire generations' worth of kneecaps - IDF soldiers escorting settlers to refugee camps to enact pogroms - IDF soldiers raiding the Al-Aqsa mosque - IDF soldiers & conscripts standing dumbly while Israel demolishes swathes of Palestinian homes - IDF conscripts manning the guard towers - Settlers setting olive trees on fire - Settlers shooting Palestinians, and then shooting more Palestinians at the funeral for the first batch of Palestinians - Settlers screaming racial epithets at Palestinians - Settlers quietly stealing land - Israelis that vote for 80% of the parties that don't see a future with Palestinian rights - Israelis that LARP as socialists on the border next to a concentration city - Israelis declaring Palestinians subhumans worthy of extinction in the Knesset - Israelis declaring Palestinians subhumans worthy of extinction in the media - Israelis that genuinely do care about Palestinian rights but don't do anything about it - Israelis that genuinely do care about Palestinian rights and try to do something about it - Israelis that are genuinely just very stupid & incurious, and don't think about any of this - Israelis who are conscripted into the IDF reluctantly vs. Israelis who enthusiastic take up the mantle of camp guard When classifying who's their tormentors, and celebrating a violent offensive into Israel. We can argue that they should, and that we need to give peace a chance, but I can understand why they'd generally be more excited about Hamas humiliating the IDF than they are sad about the Israeli deaths. Most have been conditioned to see Israelis period as their tormentors, and it takes a strong will to, standing on the rubble of your family home (be it by airstrikes or punitive demolition because you posted a meme on facebook), understand that Israelis are just as human as you.... And even then, there are people like that! There's been a trickle of stories in Israeli press that also leak online of Hamas fighters invading a home, and instead of shooting the people inside having an incredibly bizarre, twistedly wholesome exchange. Just like Israelis, Palestinians are a product of their environment, and that's what worthwhile scholars like Norman Finkelstein get at. Just as Israelis are sculpted to believe everyone else in the world is chomping at the bit to either kill or sell out Jews, Palestinians are sculpted to view Israelis as eagerly lusting for Palestinian death. If we want that to change, the environment needs to change, and the environment for both is squarely located in Israel. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 12:47
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Decon posted:Not a single poster here thinks what Israel is doing is less bad than what Hamas did and you won't find posts to the contrary. Xander77 posted:3. Everyone in the IDF surviving this \ being safe. (Yeah, I'm Israeli). Hey look its the post you said didn't exist Crosby B. Alfred posted:But thing is, they are celebrating the death of ravers and even wild stuff such as the injury of a ambulance van driver. Those who spent time in concentration camps went after actual Nazis whom we directly responsible for the holocaust, not Klaus who happened to be a rifleman and mediocre cook on the Eastern Front. First: lmao at the clean wehrmacht take here. Klaus deserved death as surely as the proverbial guard in the tower at Auschwitz. Only an act of mercy would allow Klaus to live. Second: Some Israelis are currently celebrating the indiscriminate death of whoever in Gaza. Why do you hold Palestinians to a higher standard than the people with 1,000x more power and agency? Why are you concerned at all with the reactions of a people who have no power and have spent their entire life in misery? Are you willfully ignoring the power dynamics here? A single Israeli nodding along to the bombs falling in Gaza is worse than a thousand Gazans doing a dance over finding the bulk baby storage room Third: Most Gazans will never interact with anyone outside the walls except security forces. Every adult Israeli they have seen has been an IDF member. Why would they not make the assumption these are rival soldiers caught unawares? How many of them *were* rival soldiers caught unawares? Do you think not being a current threat has ever stopped an IDF sniper? For the tourists I feel bad for them, but Israel failed them. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 13, 2023 12:54
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Bholder posted:Can we please pull our collective heads out of our asses for a minute and realise that a country, a nation or any kind of group or society is more than just a collection of individuals. However, there are some shithead posters slipping through the cracks who use the ambiguity to conflate the two and in their posting outrage call for war crimes. As mods have requested we don't talk about this in general terms, I'm going to get specific: Nix Panicus posted:The failure to provide representation and basic human rights to its entire civilian population on such an egregious scale is the reason the nation of Israel should be destroyed. Keeping two million people - mostly children! - in a ghetto for decades justifies any and all violence the prisoners inflict upon their captors. Peaceful protests have been met with sniper fire and brutality. Israel has total responsibility here; every drop of blood spilled can be directly blamed on the people of Israel. Every death, from a Hamas militant's blade or an Israeli bomb, is the fault of the people of Israel and they should face a reckoning for it. Lets look at why this recent post crosses the line... Nix Panicus posted:The failure to provide representation and basic human rights to its entire civilian population on such an egregious scale is the reason the nation of Israel should be destroyed. quote:Keeping two million people - mostly children! - in a ghetto for decades justifies any and all violence the prisoners inflict upon their captors. OK, lets choose to interpret this in good faith and assume by captors, it means acts of violence by palestinians against the machinery of the Israeli state and its direct agents. No objection to that interpretation. quote:Peaceful protests have been met with sniper fire and brutality. Israel has total responsibility here; every drop of blood spilled can be directly blamed on the people of Israel. Every death, from a Hamas militant's blade or an Israeli bomb, is the fault of the people of Israel and they should face a reckoning for it. Without this context, the above failures to draw a distinction between the people of Israel and the state might be overlooked as understandable hyperbole (given the current situation and historical/ongoing suffering of Palestinian people)... But here the two are directly conflated, and so that changes what is meant above by 'justifies any and all violence the prisoners inflict upon their captors', and 'the nation of Israel should be destroyed', 'the people of Israel... should face a reckoning'. I've not cherry-picked quotes to make people look bad, but dealt with full context of the post, as we always should. Its understandable to be outraged - most people here are! But this is pretty gross posting and not up to the standards we should expect here.
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Oct 13, 2023 12:58
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Those who spent time in concentration camps went after actual Nazis whom we directly responsible for the holocaust, not Klaus who happened to be a rifleman and mediocre cook on the Eastern Front. Are you certain about that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakam
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Oct 13, 2023 12:58
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Also, more generally, there were quite a few reprisals against Germans in Eastern Europe. Not that they were justified of course.
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Oct 13, 2023 13:04
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team overhead smash posted:So you just to confirm, you don’t think that the traditional distinction of civilian and military laid out in treaties like the Geneva Conventions with only the former being legitimate military targets is correct and that in fact anyone who offers civic support to Israel is a legitimate target? Correct. But its also the same standard Israel holds so I don't see why Hamas should be held to a higher standard than Israel. Also, international law can go gently caress itself because its done gently caress all to protect the Palestinian people. Your high minded appeal to moral and legal frameworks might mean more if two million people hadnt spent decades locked up in an open air prison at the complete mercy of modern day nazis. Maybe if the frameworks actually did something they'd be worth paying attention to Anyways, Hamas has already spent their entire lives in prison for the crime of being born Palestinian, so they've already pre-served their sentence E: To be completely clear, I believe the nation of Israel, including its leadership, its armed forces past and present, and settlers should face judgment at the hands of the people of Gaza, whatever that might entail. Let them reap what they have sown. Perhaps Gazans will show their tormentors mercy, although they certainly havent earned it. EE: Also lmao that being stuck in jail and deprived of liberty is the worst punishment you can think of for the murderous Israelis, when thats just the normal every day life of the millions in Gaza. But its Hamas that needs to respect the rules of war! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 13:04
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Israel has violated international law by carrying out indiscriminate bombing of civilian buildings while cutting off power, food, and water as a collective punishment against an enemy who does not rely on the kind of infrastructure that would even begin to justify even one bomb being dropped. They will face the full might of international justice: a sternly worded letter will be along shortly Just kidding they aren't even going to send a letter; the US will probably give them an even bigger aid package they won't use to rebuild Gaza so long as any Palestinians are left
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Oct 13, 2023 13:19
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 13:19
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So they ordered a million people out of their homes, and are probably gonna do a ground invasion. I guess this has been planned/war gamed for a very long time. I wonder at what point some western countries are gonna have the courage to ask them to tune it the gently caress down a little. Not that it matters what other countries say outside the US, maybe UK, France? Would be something if OPEC went all 73, and no oil/gas combined with Russian boycot. (I hope that’s not Clancy chat)
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Oct 13, 2023 13:29
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mrfart posted:I guess this has been planned/war gamed for a very long time. Unlikely considering how caught off guard they were by Hamas's attack and Netanyahu and the government clearly believed in their arrogance they could keep the Gazans cowed.
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Oct 13, 2023 13:31
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Bel Shazar posted:It's a bad idea to not acknowledge that genocides are genocides. It is, indeed, incumbent upon the Israeli government to provide for the wellbeing of their populace and, instead, they've chosen to focus on helping half and crushing the other through various means including ethnic cleansing and genocide. This is a subject I'm not familiar with so sorry if this is a stupid question, but... What has been Israel's "best case scenario" plan for the Palestinian population? Is it for the Palestinians to peacefully endure their condition until their birthrate drops enough for them to quietly disappear?
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Oct 13, 2023 13:33
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Groovelord Neato posted:Unlikely considering how caught off guard they were by Hamas's attack and Netanyahu and the government clearly believed in their arrogance they could keep the Gazans cowed. The part thats probably been long planned for and wargamed out is the destruction of Gaza. They probably had a few dozen scenarios drawn up and ready to go
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Oct 13, 2023 13:33
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I don't see how you can pull up a population pyramid of Gaza (one of the most pyramid shaped population pyramids I've ever seen) and say with a clean heart this is right. These kids wouldn't be allowed to get a credit card or buy a lottery ticket in the US but they're going to be collectively dispossessed from what little they still had and exterminated in this reprisal. And nothing can realistically stop it except Israel deciding to stay their hand.
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Oct 13, 2023 13:39
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Mr Lanternfly posted:This is a subject I'm not familiar with so sorry if this is a stupid question, but... The best case scenario plan from Israel's perspective has always been for the Arab states to absorb 5 million refugees so that Israel can have all the land without any of the pesky people to deal with.
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Oct 13, 2023 13:42
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Mr Lanternfly posted:This is a subject I'm not familiar with so sorry if this is a stupid question, but... They all leave, die, or stay as a cowed and quiet indentured second class.
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Oct 13, 2023 13:48
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Mr Lanternfly posted:This is a subject I'm not familiar with so sorry if this is a stupid question, but... Not a political science strategist, but ever since the assassination of Rabin the strategy seems to be to drive Gaza into creating an excuse to cleanse the whole area while colonizing more and more of the west bank... so yeah, until either the birth rates drop or the death rates rise precipitously.
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Oct 13, 2023 13:48
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mrfart posted:So they ordered a million people out of their homes, and are probably gonna do a ground invasion. It is Clancy chat, but it's also uncharted territory so I think it's appropriate. The thing is Arab governments hate Hamas almost as much as Israel does. The last thing they want are homegrown islamist insurgencies. They're probably helping Israel behind the scenes, as they've done for years. Hamas is popular on the Arab street though, so governments need to be careful. I think an embargo on oil would go too far but this conflict is going to be hard to stay quiet on.
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Oct 13, 2023 13:53
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Xander77 posted:Would the same work for "I hate Palestine"? We are really back in the days of 9/11 because that is exactly what was broadcasted, this time with Iraqis celebrating those deaths. And it's being used to gin the same thing: bloodlust for the deaths of thousands of Arab children. It's like I've time traveled again, seeing those same narratives used to bolster the same awful actions.
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Oct 13, 2023 13:54
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Shageletic posted:We are really back in the days of 9/11 because that is exactly what was broadcasted, this time with Iraqis celebrating those deaths. And it's being used to gin the same thing: bloodlust for the deaths of thousands of Arab children. There was also that clip of a handful of Palestinians celebrating 9/11 that was rebroadcast all the time.
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Oct 13, 2023 13:56
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The mood among citizens in Arab nations seems to be exactly what Hamas wanted; complete hostility to the idea of appeasement with Israel. The US and its proxies immediately going balls-deep in support for Israel to do literally whatever it wants seems to have shellshocked the middle-class Arab citizens who were buying into the idea of a "Rules-Based International Order". It's transparently clear that Israel has special status and will have such no matter how much they play ball. There's probably some feeling of "this could be me"; what would happen to them if militant parts of their country were provoked by Israel? Arab governments are all-in on enriching themselves through backroom deals with the US, but they're probably going to be cautious about working with Israel for a short while; the atmosphere is such that it almost feels like even the Sauds would get executed by their security detail if they started endorsing Israel. It's hard to sell genocide from an ethnosupremacy state that clearly doesn't actually like you to your citizens.
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Oct 13, 2023 14:00
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Nix Panicus posted:Correct. But its also the same standard Israel holds so I don't see why Hamas should be held to a higher standard than Israel. Yeah alright there is one poster. I was wrong. I don't see holding them to the same standard of "don't kill civilians" as holding one to a higher standard. Israel has been and still is the primary aggressor and wrongdoer (and by "primary", I do mean by an absolute, immeasurable fuckload more), but that doesn't make bad things good. If international law can go gently caress itself, what's your hope for the outcome here? Hamas is outgunned, out financed, and outmanned, and Israel has the backing of the USA. I know I'm naïve and ignorant but I do hope some nations see Israel as going entirely too far and there's a reckoning on their current and past actions against Gaza and Palestinians in general. I don't see unfettered, unlimited retaliation as justice. Justice is a process that involves thoughtfulness, not "whatever that might entail". Yes, that is the everyday situation of the people of Gaza, and that's immensely wrong. Torturing settlers won't undo that, and that's not justice. Decon fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 14:06
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Mr Lanternfly posted:This is a subject I'm not familiar with so sorry if this is a stupid question, but... Unsurprisingly a scheme cooked up by Europeans hot off the trail of starving half of India to death, where there's two ethnostates that will simply never come into conflict and never engage in ethnic cleansing (despite it being required to maintain an ethnostate), doesn't have a clear path forward. The plan seems to have been to slowly incorporate Palestine into Israel while still strictly holding a majority non-Arab population. It's safe to say that, like in most of these situations, most Israelis are not insane fundamentalists and would be perfectly fine with a state where their rights are protected and doesn't go on wars of conquest but that's not who is in actual power. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 14:11
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Mr Lanternfly posted:This is a subject I'm not familiar with so sorry if this is a stupid question, but... Israel's best case scenario is that they all flee into Egypt and Jordan and become someone else's problem. I don't believe there is any official plan for Israel to end the occupation of Gaza, but the informal plan is to continue the status quo of periodic incursions to weed out militant dissidents, while causing enough collateral damage that there will always be enough resistance to justify the next incursion, to repeat ad nauseam until the last Gazan is either dead in the ground or a refugee somewhere else. Meanwhile, Israel is gradually annexing territory in the West Bank, driving out Palestinians on a variety of pretenses and establishing Israeli settlements in their place. I'm not aware if there is a singular end goal in mind there, but every year the Palestinian territory of the West Bank, which the US officially believes could be granted to Palestine in a two-state solution, grows smaller.
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Oct 13, 2023 14:14
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Nix Panicus posted:The failure to provide representation and basic human rights to its entire civilian population on such an egregious scale is the reason the nation of Israel should be destroyed. Keeping two million people - mostly children! - in a ghetto for decades justifies any and all violence the prisoners inflict upon their captors. Peaceful protests have been met with sniper fire and brutality. Israel has total responsibility here; every drop of blood spilled can be directly blamed on the people of Israel. Every death, from a Hamas militant's blade or an Israeli bomb, is the fault of the people of Israel and they should face a reckoning for it. "The nation of Israel should be destroyed" and "the people of Israel ... should face a reckoning" is unambiguously genocidal. Nix Panicus posted:E: Everyone wants Palestine and Hamas to be *better* than the murderous, indiscriminate Israelis, despite the Palestinians having a thousandth of the power of Israel. You want Palestine to forego justice and show unearned mercy to their tormentors in exchange for nothing, while Israel continues to murder and maraude unchecked. And here's the motive. Eye-for-an-eye barbarism, "they're fighting a war against a genocide, so how dare you ask them not to commit genocide in return?" Anyone who does *not* want people to better than indiscriminate murder is morally deranged. EDIT: it's exactly 100% parallel to the most right-wing Israeli rhetoric about how every Palestinian needs to face violent retribution for Hamas. You can see it in the post right below this one. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 14:27
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https://twitter.com/henrymance/status/1712811314299490353 Personally, this isn't the kind of messaging I would be putting out shortly before my country launches a ground invasion.
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Oct 13, 2023 14:32
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Nix Panicus posted:Correct. But it’s also the same standard Israel holds so I don't see why Hamas should be held to a higher standard than Israel. They shouldn’t, they should be held to the same standard. quote:Also, international law can go gently caress itself because its done gently caress all to protect the Palestinian people. Your high minded appeal to moral and legal frameworks might mean more if two million people hadnt spent decades locked up in an open air prison at the complete mercy of modern day nazis. Maybe if the frameworks actually did something they'd be worth paying attention to Firstly, the same moral basis for international law is the same basis that a lot of Palestine supporters use for why they care about and want Palestine’s freedom. They believe that all people have basic fundamental rights. They believe that war is horrible and the civilian population should be protected from it as much as possible. Secondly, it absolutely doesn’t do anywhere what it should in an ideal world but the global institutions that involve international military law do have an impact on Israel. We’re in a 24 news cycle world and being labelled as the aggressor and culpable is something Israel is pretty worried an about, hence their Hasbarah efforts and the lobbying of the USA. The international laws of how states should behave and should be accountable has provided a framework for criticism of Israel to be levelled from almost every country on Earth. I think it very likely that if not for international military law there would be less concern for the Palestinians and Israel would have been more open and further along with their gradual destruction of the Palestinian people. Thirdly, look at what are you suggesting as an alternative. You might call my approach high minded, but it’s not like your approach while immoral but has the benefit of being practical and pragmatic. Putting aside the cost to the Israelis, what is the impact on the Palestinians? Likely thousands dead by this point aleeway, international support of Israel’s government and likely the absolute devastation of Gaza to follow. Doesn’t really look like throwing international law in the bin leads to good results!
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Oct 13, 2023 14:37
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 14:37
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Neurolimal posted:https://twitter.com/henrymance/status/1712811314299490353 The coup line is laughable because Hamas won the elections and Israel, the US, and Egypt backed a coup attempt against them. Civilized Fishbot posted:"The nation of Israel should be destroyed" and "the people of Israel ... should face a reckoning" is unambiguously genocidal. Nope. The only non-genocidal outcome - and the one Israel has forced by never offering a good faith two-state solution - is a single state which would necessitate the destruction/dissolution of Israel as a separate entity. When someone says 9/11 was a reckoning they're not saying the American people should be wiped out. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 14:43
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 17:30 |
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In an alternate universe Fatah wins by the margin as polling predicted in 2006 and the peace process wearily trudges on. In our world Hamas ekes out a surprise victory through FPTP local district seats, mainly on an anti-corruption protest platform. Palestinians are no more immune than any other country's voters in quietly desiring to give their elites a black eye for perceived ill governance and thereby surprising pollsters. And like any other country, narrow victories on the back of a <2% vote margin difference can turn into infuriatingly unshakeable consensuses on what "must" be done. Rich, stable countries can survive such internal divisions; desperately poor, unstable countries may find the eventual costs of indulging such adventures very dear indeed.
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Oct 13, 2023 14:43
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