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Nenonen posted:Could the nation definition derail end, please? Please?? There's a lot of strange definitions being tossed around and sure there is ambiguosity, but you're not getting anywhere and it's not worth pages of posts itt. it's only fitting that we are relitigating 19th century ideological disputes over the relationship between a nation and the state in an I/P thread
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Oct 13, 2023 21:08
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Groovelord Neato posted:No they weren't it's why I posted yesterday that Israel had never offered a deal that wasn't dogshit. The Oslo Peace Accords weren't a big deal? I mean, they were signed, celebrated, and led to a very long period of peace. And it brought together two leaders whose states were not even on speaking terms. But yeah, that was a "dogshit" deal because you prefer conflict?
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Oct 13, 2023 21:14
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U.S. finally telling Israel to cool it a little. Also, apparently planning a government-sponsored cruise for any Americans who want to leave Israel. https://twitter.com/JacquiHeinrich/status/1712911039887507674
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Oct 13, 2023 21:19
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:U.S. finally telling Israel to cool it a little. So, not openly telling them in a public manner. Just (maybe if it's true) politely suggesting it in back-channel communications.
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Oct 13, 2023 21:24
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Mr. Apollo posted:Al Jazeera did some work and it looks like the 4 Hamas militants that were shot by the IDF the other day were actually 4 unarmed Palestinians who were surrendering. it would be neat if this changed anyone's mind, but it won't
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Oct 13, 2023 21:30
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So when does the 24hr period on Israels bullshit "warning" end?
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Oct 13, 2023 21:32
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https://twitter.com/acyn/status/1712915377137521094?s=46&t=G1x8XWIwrNxUQoXItlkh2w Well it’s *something*, but a bit toothless when Israel knows that absolutely nothing will make the USA withdraw their protection.
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Oct 13, 2023 21:36
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CNN is currently following up Biden's statement with grilling the Israel ambassador about current Palestinians being not the same people who elected Hamas, and them not being able to do anything about Hamas since they grew up under their control, so that's something at least. The response from the ambassador is "what do you expect us to do, we have to take out Hamas, so..." - so, yeah. But at least there is some narrative shifting (they've also been showing pro-Palestine protests).
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Oct 13, 2023 21:40
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paul_soccer12 posted:How much of the apartheid centre and likud-far right do you expect to go straight to the fascists now? Judging from polling that came out today, voters are breaking to the center, not the far right/fascist parties. National Union, Gantz's party, increased its support from the last election from 12 mandates to 41 (Likud fell from 32 to 19, Religious Zionism/Otzma Yehudit fell from 14 to 9) Polls are going to be especially weird a week after a war breaks out, and this also includes the coalition's drop in suppot from the months of anti-judicial reform protests, but there's not a mad stampede to the fascists at least. Poll (article in Hebrew): https://www.maariv.co.il/news/politics/Article-1044603 quote:In answer to the question, if new Knesset elections were held today, who would you vote for? - The answers were: National Union - 41 mandates (29 in the previous survey), Likud - 19 (28 in the previous survey), Yesh Atid - 15 (16), Torah Judaism - 7 (7), Shas - 7 (10), Meretz - 6 (4), Yisrael Beytinu - 6 (6), Hadash-Ta'al - 5 (5), Ra'am - 5 (5), Otzma Yehudit - 5 (4), Religious Zionism - 4 (6) ). The Labor Party (only 1.3%) and the Balad Party (1.5%) do not pass the voting threshold. The collapse of the coalition is mainly due to the decline of Likud in 9 seats, the relatively sharp decline after a long period of Shas in 3 seats and the decline of religious Zionism in 2 seats. Only Otzma Yehudit gained strength among the coalition parties - by 1 seat. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 21:41
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 21:59
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Go ahead and gimme that 24 hour koos you fuckhead genocide supporter (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 13, 2023 22:05
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/sharifkouddous/status/1712865803182243857?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Sharif Kouddous is a longtime journalist and he is citing the ministry of health.
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Oct 13, 2023 22:10
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socialsecurity posted:Yeah this line gets blurry, it seems common on the left to accuse people of Sinophobia for criticizing the Chinese government but those same rules don't seem to apply to Israel. Not that the government of Israel isn't culpable in multi crimes against humanity and needs to be brought to the Hague. Bholder posted:no it isn't. This isn't an ideological question, it's basic English. From the Oxford Dictionary Nation: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory. State: a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government. The state an organized administrative body, the nation is the people. Nothing happened to the nations of Russia or Germany when their government fell, because what changed were the states, not the people. There is nothing sinophobic about criticizing the Chinese government. It's usually pretty easy to tell from context whether someone is referring to a nation or a state, and if you find yourself conflating the two, you need to examine whether you are engaging in good faith.
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Oct 13, 2023 22:14
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Charliegrs posted:So when does the 24hr period on Israels bullshit "warning" end? Looks like they're already sending in ground troops: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/now-is-time-war-says-israels-military-chief-2023-10-12/ quote:Israeli infantry made their first raids into the Gaza Strip on Friday since Hamas fighters rampaged through southern Israel, and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said a campaign of retaliation had only just begun. quote:Israeli military spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari said troops backed by tanks had mounted raids to attack Palestinian rocket crews and seek information on the location of hostages, the first official account of ground troops in Gaza since the crisis began. I was hoping that the UN would have been able to persuade them to change course with this decision 
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Oct 13, 2023 22:14
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So we can't question propaganda justifying a genocide and we also can't post evidence of the genocide. loving awesome man
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Oct 13, 2023 22:17
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Adenoid Dan posted:So we can't question propaganda justifying a genocide and we also can't post evidence of the genocide. Reuters and Human Rights Watch say it never happened. Human Rights Watch does accuse Israel of using it near the Lebannon Border and near the port, but not at the children's hospital. The IDF says they have not deployed it at all yet. Reuters hasn't been able to verify any of the accusations yet, but it wasn't at the hospital. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/human-rights-watch-says-israel-used-white-phosphorous-gaza-lebanon-2023-10-12/
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Oct 13, 2023 22:19
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/sharifkouddous/status/1712865803182243857?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q How is sourcing a journalist making a direct claim not sufficient?
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Oct 13, 2023 22:21
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Ham posted:How is sourcing a journalist making a direct claim not sufficient? Yeah we might need some guidelines on what constitutes a source at this rate, we really need people to be able to post evidence of what's occurring.
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Oct 13, 2023 22:23
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Other posters have shared tweets from Journos that ended up not being real, for example the reported infiltrations the other day in northern Israel. No one was probed because it was assumed it was shared in good faith and IMO that should continue.
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Oct 13, 2023 22:27
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Really seeing the difference in how claims of Palestinian and Israeli atrocities are treated
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Oct 13, 2023 22:27
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Ciprian Maricon posted:Other posters have shared tweets from Journos that ended up not being real, for example the reported infiltrations the other day in northern Israel. No one was probed because it was assumed it was shared in good faith and IMO that should continue. Yeah, I'm not saying anything about the probe. I was just correcting the person saying the tweet was confirmation that it happened.
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Oct 13, 2023 22:29
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Ciprian Maricon posted:Other posters have shared tweets from Journos that ended up not being real, for example the reported infiltrations the other day in northern Israel. No one was probed because it was assumed it was shared in good faith and IMO that should continue. Yes.
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Oct 13, 2023 22:30
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 22:31
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/sharifkouddous/status/1712865803182243857?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Yo this probe is bullshit, the source is right there. Whether or not that source is reliable might be another discussion but you can't just probe for vague reasons without clarification on what is and isn't a source. Eta: if you're gonna probe people for sharing posts by journalists you have to make it very, very clear on what your standards are because otherwise any discussion is basically impossible, given how fluid the situation is and how unreliable even official accounts of loving world leaders and organisations have proven to be. Eta2: also, Koos, given the response in general to that probe it would behoove you to actually respond in this thread and explain your reasoning, lest you look like a coward Taeke fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Oct 13, 2023 |
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Oct 13, 2023 22:33
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I sincerely hope that posting some shocking factual claims from an established journalist doesn't get me a 24-hour probe, but we now have some additional confirmation about the story I posted earlier regarding the IDF slaughtering 70 civilians in a convoy that was following Israel's evacuation orders: https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1712911792106602608
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Oct 13, 2023 22:39
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Main Paineframe posted:I think you badly misunderstood my point here. I'm not saying that the PA can't stop rockets because Israel won't let them. I'm saying that the PA can't stop rockets because they're an illegitimate collaborationist regime whose territory is under occupation by a foreign power, and who actively aid the foreign occupier's troops in rooting out potential resistance to the occupation. The presence of the occupation obviously makes the populace more willing to take acts against the occupiers, and the PA's illegitimacy and its active collaboration with the occupiers makes the populace less likely to respect the PA's attempts to stop anti-occupation resistance, even in the small portions of Palestinian land where Israel allows the PA a pretense of actual self-government. That sounds too plausible, really (and only too familiar to anyone who has flipped through history books on the delicate 'internal self-government' periods of the various postcolonial countries) and it's time to return to the storied well of building up credibility in struggle so that it can be spent yet more decades later at the negotiating table. Still, at the same time, any other hypothetical government still has to participate in that trust-building, or a peace process is dead in the water. It doesn't have to be Oslo-style enclaves - probably shouldn't be, c.f. rockets - but it has to be something that can be incremented. (I don't think any Oslo participant in 2006 would have really objected if Abbas had held elections worthy of Mubarak next door if it led to peace, really. Anyway Hamas had already boycotted 2005; I don't think it would have been difficult to persuade it to boycott in 2006; the choice to reach out was proactive on Abbas's part on his own assumption that he could win a mandate defeating Hamas. Well, he couldn't.)
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Oct 13, 2023 22:39
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/sharifkouddous/status/1712865803182243857?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q rot in hell koos you stupid sack of poo poo (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 13, 2023 22:42
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Stinky Wizzleteats posted:Go ahead and gimme that 24 hour koos you fuckhead genocide supporter Zedhe Khoja posted:rot in hell koos you stupid sack of poo poo (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 13, 2023 22:43
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Just a lurker but this (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 13, 2023 22:47
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suspended for 24 hours for posting something well-documented? cool move mods
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Oct 13, 2023 22:49
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"Maybe IDF was exaggerating, I don't give a gently caress, but your sources aren't good enough for me that a genocide is ongoing"
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Oct 13, 2023 22:50
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Zedhe Khoja posted:rot in hell koos you stupid sack of poo poo For real. There are two sources in the post, even. ~mArTiAl LaW~ though, mods don't have to make sense. You were warned!
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Oct 13, 2023 22:54
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Nail Rat posted:"Maybe IDF was exaggerating, I don't give a gently caress, but your sources aren't good enough for me that a genocide is ongoing" Zedhe Khoja posted:rot in hell koos you stupid sack of poo poo
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Oct 13, 2023 22:54
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/sharifkouddous/status/1712865803182243857?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q wow that’s crazy that the IDF would do this after killing 500 Gazan kids the last few days and the day after the HRW came out with this: https://twitter.com/hrw/status/1712573871596187916
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Oct 13, 2023 22:54
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Oslo didn't require any of that. Israel didn't even ask for that. Their high-end was that they were willing to negotiate down was that they couldn't ban Israeli aircraft from Palestinian airspace and for an international force to be temporarily deployed in the Jordan Valley to cover 15% of the border with Jordan. They didn't ask for permanent control over all of the Palestinian state borders. The only permanent security presence was the 15% of the Jordan border. The 2000 peace talks had Israel arguing that the free and independent Palestinian state should have Israeli troops stationed on it, Israeli control of borders, Israeli vetos on Palestinian construction it didn't want like an airport. The PLO were also willing to make significant concessions on right of return and always have been. No official details of Arafats peace discussions summit have been released, but two separate journalists released books after speaking to the people on both sides of negotiations which got praise from the Israeli and Palestinian sides for their accuracy. Clayton E Swisher's The Truth About Camp David states: "...Arafat has been willing to accept a limited right of return, in all liklihood within the symbolic strictures of "family reunification" entertained at Stockholm, so long as the Palestinians received recognition of that right and a viable state with palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem and the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount. With those compromises in hand, Arafat would be in a strengthened position to go to the Al Aqsa Mosque and address the entire Palestinian disaspora: "There is no reason to go live in Israel now. Come home and help us build the state we have!"(56)" (page 282) Meanwhile Charles Enderlin's Shattered Dreams: The failure of the peace process in the middle east, 1995 - 2002 states: "Never, despite the claims of certain Jewish organisations, did the Palestinian negotiators demand the return to Israel of 3,000,000 refugees. The figures discussed in the course of the talks varied from several hundred to several thousand Palestinians to be allowed to return with Israel's authorisation" (Page 324) The peace talks are very unfairly framed as failing due to the PLO, but the PLO made plenty of offers that Israel rejected that offered more than Israel had any legal right to. Jerusalem and Israel’s unwillingness to actually give Palestine sovereignty in discussions designed to give Palestinians sovereignty over there own nation were the main issues from what I recall.
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Oct 13, 2023 23:00
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Iverron posted:wow that’s crazy that the IDF would do this after killing 500 Gazan kids the last few days and the day after the HRW came out with this: Better be careful because maybe Koos doesn't deem HRW a source. You just don't know because it's not like there's clear parameters on how those judgments are made or anything.
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Oct 13, 2023 23:02
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Zedhe Khoja posted:rot in hell koos you stupid sack of poo poo (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 13, 2023 23:02
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Taeke posted:Better be careful because maybe Koos doesn't deem HRW a source. You just don't know because it's not like there's clear parameters on how those judgments are made or anything. signed statement of whoever is the head honcho of IDF is required to consider something a "credible source".
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Oct 13, 2023 23:05
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Zedhe Khoja posted:
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Oct 13, 2023 23:10
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What in god's name is going on here?
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Oct 13, 2023 23:12
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