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Darko posted:It also helps when you've talked to people who have actually been oppressed and can listen to how much sympathy many of them have for those that oppressed them. I'm Gen X, so I could directly hear how my grandparents' peers who lived under Jim Crow felt about white people, or in going to South Africa, how much the (still) oppressed Zulu people feel about the people still oppressing them. Empathy drops a great deal for people that you feel are benefitting off of your suffering in a lot of those situations. How do explain other oppressed minority groups who haven't purposefully targeted innocent civilian in their campaigns? Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 15:21
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:I mean, Hamas can hardly be blamed as the only one to conflate civilian and combatant.
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Oct 14, 2023 15:23
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 15:30
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Irony Be My Shield posted:To me that's why it's super important never to try to excuse or justify what Hamas did - doing so implicitly justifies Israel's retaliatory attack on Gaza. It was bad when Hamas did it and we should not accept a nation state doing the same thing, especially when that state is receiving so much aid from western countries. This is my thought as well. I do not understand the intent behind changing the subject from one recent atrocity to another either. Is that supposed to generate sympathy for Palestine? It strikes me as dismissive and borderline whataboutism.
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Oct 14, 2023 15:32
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:How do explain other oppressed minority groups who haven't purposefully targeted innocent civilian in their campaigns? Depends on the situation, historically. A lot depends on isolation; if a group is isolated enough from the outside world, geographically or with communication, it's easier for terrorist leaning factions to rise to power. Also access to weapons, central leadership, environmental pressures, lack of help, etc. Black Americans or South Africans didn't target civilians outside of very isolated situations, but black Haitians most certainly did. So did Native Americans. While there weren't really huge civilian targets during apartheid, and they mainly began adopting American Civil RIghts methods (because they had a working example), the Inkatha Freedom Party rose during that period and because of it and did massacres right after. So it's highly situationally dependent. edit: Do you think black Americans were crying about the Haitian Revolution, which was one of the bloodiest civilian death situations in a war? Darko fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 15:41
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:How do explain other oppressed minority groups who haven't purposefully targeted innocent civilian in their campaigns? The average Palestinain has no say in who Hamas targets, so I'm not sure who is targeting who in this comparison. But I'd be happy to hear examples of that, as if all black people living in Apartheid South Africa hearing about a white farmer getting shot and falling to their knees in sorrow.
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Oct 14, 2023 15:44
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:How do explain other oppressed minority groups who haven't purposefully targeted innocent civilian in their campaigns? Give an example of one such group.
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Oct 14, 2023 16:02
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:How do explain other oppressed minority groups who haven't purposefully targeted innocent civilian in their campaigns? Is there a single group who did not have some factions target civilians when they were targeted by civilians of their oppressors? Every group will have members across the political spectrum with matching solutions and will try to enact them. Hamas likely doesn't see this as an unprovoked escalation by them to attack civilians, they see it as a reprisal for pogroms in the West Bank on Palestinians. They see it as one of many events in a conflict that has included things like this. https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/middleeast/huwara-west-bank-settler-attack-cmd-intl/index.html Attacking civilians is morally horrific but it was normalized in this conflict a long long time ago. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 16:03
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Give an example of one such group. Myanmar rebels who are even more isolated and less known that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
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Oct 14, 2023 16:11
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Myanmar rebels who are even more isolated and less known that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They've been accused of using landmines that have killed civilians and utilizing child soldiers. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/pmextra/jan00/24/hostage.htm "Child Terrorists Hold Hundreds Hostage in Thailand" is a hell of a loving headline to be generated from rebels you're saying never targeted civilians. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 16:18
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https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/10/14/palestinians-who-fled-to-khan-younis-still-under-israeli-airstrikes - IDF warned Palestinians to evacuate the north, then bombed the south anyway - four store building in southern city Khan Yunis has been destroyed, several people killed and wounded (CW: one picture of rescuers recovering "a small body" from under the rubble)
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Oct 14, 2023 17:14
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kiminewt posted:There are no Palestinian workers on IDF bases, and in most bases the soldiers do all the work anyway. The only Arab soldiers are Bedouin and Druze, which are afforded the rank of honorary Jew. It seems to me the information they had could only come from spies or cyber espionage. Hence my question if Hamas has those capabilities. My guess is they don't but Iran certainly does so it seems like circumstantial evidence they were heavily involved in the planning but I'm not well versed in all of this which is why I'm asking the thread. I'm sure more information will come out over time, but I'm curious what others think.
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Oct 14, 2023 17:15
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D-Pad posted:It seems to me the information they had could only come from spies or cyber espionage. Hence my question if Hamas has those capabilities. My guess is they don't but Iran certainly does so it seems like circumstantial evidence they were heavily involved in the planning but I'm not well versed in all of this which is why I'm asking the thread. I'm like 99% sure it isn't spies in an IDF base. It just doesn't make any sense.
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Oct 14, 2023 17:24
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 17:49
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I would say that maybe something will happen now that a precious, precious American has been affected, but I doubt it because the American in question is not white.
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Oct 14, 2023 17:56
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Miftan posted:I'm like 99% sure it isn't spies in an IDF base. It just doesn't make any sense. Yeah I would agree. I was thinking more of a spy or spies in a position to obtain base schematics, vehicle counts, etc rather than being physically in the bases. That or cyber espionage. I just don't see how all that information could be gained any other way. I'm sure some of it could be observation with a drone or something but most of the stuff described in the article would need someone with access to classified documents etc.
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Oct 14, 2023 18:09
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D-Pad posted:Yeah I would agree. I was thinking more of a spy or spies in a position to obtain base schematics, vehicle counts, etc rather than being physically in the bases. That or cyber espionage. I just don't see how all that information could be gained any other way. I'm sure some of it could be observation with a drone or something but most of the stuff described in the article would need someone with access to classified documents etc. Or the 'communications server' is just the metal box next to the base antenna.
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Oct 14, 2023 18:19
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Just wanted to post this Peter Zeihan video about the whole situation. Zeihan is a bit of strange fellow, he does futures predictions for companies about how the world is going to be in the next 10-30 years. He does a good job summing up what's been going on, and brings up a few thoughts that hadn't occurred to me (and from watching the thread, most others), such as the factionalization in the Gaza Strip that may have contributed to the initial Hamas butchery. Thought the thread might appreciate it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxXJOqqNFVM&t=2s
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Oct 14, 2023 18:29
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Kalit posted:I hope you understand that these smoke projectiles are way different than the WP weapons used in Vietnam.... This excuse sounds incredibly familiar. The Times posted:Israel admits using white phosphorous in attacks on Gaza
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Oct 14, 2023 18:31
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PT6A posted:I would say that maybe something will happen now that a precious, precious American has been affected, but I doubt it because the American in question is not white. This is really tired. A lot of Palestinians, and Mediterranean Arabs more generally, are white enough that they would not look out of place if cast in a period piece set in Scotland circa 1600. Nadia El-Nakla is fully Gazan, with her parents currently in Gaza, and she looks like a slightly darker than average ethnically British person. This woman is also Gazan, https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-67074435, she also looks like any average ethnic European. My wife, who I am not going to post a photo of, is also Arab and has literally never one single time in her entire life been thought of as "brown." Saying Arabs are brown is as dumb as saying Turks are brown, or that Americans are white, or that Brazilians are black. Literally no one can differentiate an Arab Palestinian from a Jewish Israeli except by dress or speech. E: I’m also a stereotypical "Nordic white" look and I fit in perfectly fine in Algeria, even passing an "Algerians and Tunisians only" checkpoint earlier this year, just had to cover my hair with a hat and let my wife do all the talking. White skin, blue eyes, look just like an average Kabylie. Saladman fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 18:38
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Saladman posted:Saying Arabs are brown is as dumb as saying Turks are brown, or that Americans are white, or that Brazilians are black. Literally no one can differentiate an Arab Palestinian from a Jewish Israeli except by dress or speech. My partner is Palestinian and gets this like weeks after knowing a person/whatever "You're Palestinian? Oooh, interesting!", person ghosts them Ciprian Maricon posted:It's a comment about the way people are treated not a literal assessment of the amount of melanin in their skin. There are many people in the world that would treat your wife differently if they knew she was Arab and how she appears would do nothing to deter them. A Palestinian-American will be treated differently by the state because of their ethnicity, they will not be seen as truly "white" regardless of their complexion. This is extremely true, like whenever we've flown internationally upon returning to the US I get to do the white people check-in where I press a button on a touch screen that says I'm not smuggling anything and then go about my way while my partner, who is way paler than me, always gets the "this person might be trouble" stamp on their boarding pass. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 18:49
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It's a comment about the way people are treated not a literal assessment of the amount of melanin in their skin. There are many people in the world that would treat your wife differently if they knew she was Arab and how she appears would do nothing to deter them. A Palestinian-American will be treated differently by the state because of their ethnicity, they will not be seen as truly "white" regardless of their complexion.
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Oct 14, 2023 18:49
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Ciprian Maricon posted:It's a comment about the way people are treated not a literal assessment of the amount of melanin in their skin. There are many people in the world that would treat your wife differently if they knew she was Arab and how she appears would do nothing to deter them. A Palestinian-American will be treated differently by the state because of their ethnicity, they will not be seen as truly "white" regardless of their complexion. I agree with the latter half of what you wrote, but many people - perhaps PT6A included - think that Arabs are literally brown skinned people, in the way that you can say a Japanese person or Igbo person is a certain look. And not in the way that it has been a cosmopolitan region for 2800 years with a very wide range of what 100% local people look like. Israel is actually the only place my wife has gotten harassment once people saw her name, and they asked her "<her very Arab name> where is your Israeli passport?" We got detained at the Palestine-Jordan bridge for like an hour, later realizing that an undercover guy interrogated us while sitting next to us in the waiting area (he asked a bunch of cheery questions about our trip). I was let through with a 1 second glance at my name / passport, but they at least let me wait back with her and go through a second time, instead of separating us.
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Oct 14, 2023 19:07
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Just wanted to post this Peter Zeihan video about the whole situation. Zeihan is a bit of strange fellow, he does futures predictions for companies about how the world is going to be in the next 10-30 years. He does a good job summing up what's been going on, and brings up a few thoughts that hadn't occurred to me (and from watching the thread, most others), such as the factionalization in the Gaza Strip that may have contributed to the initial Hamas butchery. Thought the thread might appreciate it. Yeah Zeihan is a weird guy with a very broad but shallow understanding of the world (in the context of intelligence analysts rather than the average person - he's knowledgeable but would come short against an actual expert in any specific topic). Very macro socioeconomic driven analysis where on youtube he is significantly more deterministic than is perhaps wise. He is certainly worth listening to for a worldview that significantly discounts ideology and looking at things from that perspective.
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Oct 14, 2023 19:14
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An observation:quote:The Tamil Tigers, who controlled the majority of the territory in the northern and eastern provinces of Sri Lanka at the peak of their strength, responded to state violence with ruthless techniques of warfare, weaponizing human bodies through the systematic deployment of suicide bombers. Frequently targeting civilians, over the years they managed to kill several politicians, including the prime minister of India in 1991 and the president of Sri Lanka in 1993. The Tigers also massacred Sinhalese and Muslims living in villages bordering the front lines of the areas they controlled, while forcefully recruiting child soldiers from the Tamil population. from Gordon and Perugini's Human Shields: A History of People in the Line of Fire , ch14 Scale: Human Shielding in Sri Lanka and the Principle of Proportionality, where the authors are sharply critical of the opinion of the former chief prosecutor of the Sierra Leone Tribunal that civilians killed in the course of being used as human shields should have a diminished value in proportionality calculations in weighing whether civilian deaths from military operations are 'excessive' relative to the military gains outside of customary international humanitarian jurisprudence, I daresay the most important element in the Sri Lankan case is that the nationalist movement was crushed successfully and has been moribund since - if it promptly flared up again for another generation, observers would rather be less tolerant of the argument advanced in Colombo. It remains to be seen if Israel can achieve such an outcome; I would be doubtful. ronya fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 19:39
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Kalit posted:I hope you understand that these smoke projectiles are way different than the WP weapons used in Vietnam.... How? Is the chemical composition different? Are the mechanisms by which the chemicals are released different? Do you have any source to back up this claim?
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Oct 14, 2023 19:57
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Gumball Gumption posted:Is there a single group who did not have some factions target civilians when they were targeted by civilians of their oppressors? Every group will have members across the political spectrum with matching solutions and will try to enact them. Usually I'd broadly agree but I was genuinely shocked and sickened by the scale of Hamas's attack in a way that I feel I haven't seen in, say for example, Ukraine's attacks on Russian civilian targets. Like 1000 Israeli civilians dead, would I be right in saying that that's the highest death toll for the Israeli side in a single day since the state was established?
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Oct 14, 2023 20:08
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khwarezm posted:Ukraine's attacks on Russian civilian targets Did you accidently swap the nations around?
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Oct 14, 2023 20:24
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There are no clean wars but Hamas squandered the single best chance there ever has or will be to cause cripplingly lasting (if not altogether lethal) damage to the Israeli state by tasking combat power into terror actions instead of directly targeting the forces of the occupation. They could've overrun Southern Command entirely and captured hundreds of high value military hostages for negotiation and exchanges. They could've brought down the Iron Dome network. Palestinian leverage would've been immense while Bibi's government self-destructed over the blame.
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Oct 14, 2023 20:24
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khwarezm posted:Usually I'd broadly agree but I was genuinely shocked and sickened by the scale of Hamas's attack in a way that I feel I haven't seen in, say for example, Ukraine's attacks on Russian civilian targets. Like 1000 Israeli civilians dead, would I be right in saying that that's the highest death toll for the Israeli side in a single day since the state was established? Yes. And retaliatory strikes have killed more Gazans than that since then. It's a conflict that decided a long long time ago that civilian attacks were a perfectly fine tactic and each side keeps escalating them and the international community keeps picking and choosing which ones are tragic horrors and which ones are unfortunate but impossible to avoid.
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Oct 14, 2023 20:25
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Mikojan posted:Did you accidently swap the nations around? I mean there have been some, or at least attacks on infrastructure that can simultaneously be used by military and civilians, like the Kerch bridge. The overall point is that as bitter as the Ukrainian war has been I can't think of Ukraine doing anything like the attack that happened on the 7th. I suppose I'm sad that Hamas had this opportunity to strike hard against the Israeli military and police forces but the whole operation was irrevocably poisoned by the attack descending into a wholesale civilian slaughter that as far as I can tell did not help their military situation and made the discussions about Israeli actions, atrocities and suppression a lot harder to have when Hamas ended up playing the part of bloodthirsty terrorists.
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Oct 14, 2023 20:35
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Conspiratiorist posted:There are no clean wars but Hamas squandered the single best chance there ever has or will be to cause cripplingly lasting (if not altogether lethal) damage to the Israeli state by tasking combat power into terror actions instead of directly targeting the forces of the occupation. They could've overrun Southern Command entirely and captured hundreds of high value military hostages for negotiation and exchanges. They could've brought down the Iron Dome network. Palestinian leverage would've been immense while Bibi's government self-destructed over the blame. It's possible Hamas sent all their best fighters to attack military targets, and recruited a bunch of lesser trained undisciplined mooks with vauger orders. Or its possible they got exactly what they ordered. I'm speaking in ignorance here.
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Oct 14, 2023 20:49
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The issue with arguing wether or not Hamas had the right to do an attack like this is the underlining message that this is actually just two equal sides exchanging warcrimes, when that is absolutely not the case at all, not in the case of power, control or which sides are given media or political support. Also, this whole thing didn't start with Hamas just a week ago...
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Oct 14, 2023 20:49
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 21:09
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Outrail posted:It's possible Hamas sent all their best fighters to attack military targets, and recruited a bunch of lesser trained undisciplined mooks with vauger orders. Or its possible they got exactly what they ordered. I'm speaking in ignorance here. The first wave that hit the festival executed many civilians but also took many hostages. So at least some of the elite forces had orders to take civilians hostage. There's various documents allegedly found on fighters detailing plans to hit kibbutz and take hostages, nothing I've seen translated from Pro Israel sources has alleged specific details to murder civilians within these documents.  Elite/pro fighters in the festival killing/hostage taking https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1711256232646897813 Documents Please keep in mind that this telegram was established by Israeli first responders to document what they came across. I've seen it referenced by respected osint accounts. It is very very and the contents haven't been through journalist authentication, so take the content as you will. https://t.me/southfirstresponders/181 Edit- I guess it's out in regular news now. I must have missed it. Here is better sources. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/top-secret-hamas-documents-show-terrorists-intentionally-targeted-elem-rcna120310 https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/13/world/middleeast/hamas-israel-attack-gaza.html https://news.sky.com/story/hamas-may-have-planned-israel-attack-for-more-than-a-year-documents-shared-with-sky-news-suggest-12984107 ummel fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 21:30
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Are people back to arguing if Hamas was justified in their terror attack? jeez
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Oct 14, 2023 21:56
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In the New Yorker, What was Hamas thinking? They got on the phone with a Hamas political leader in Qatar, and do a good job of critically responding to his statements, but don't get any real answers...in part because it appears significant parts of the Hamas political leadership wasn't aware of much about when or how the attack was going to happen, or anything about what it would entail. The leader in question, Abu Marzouk, seems to be mostly engaged in a flak capacity.
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Oct 14, 2023 22:01
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 22:13
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Zzulu posted:Are people back to arguing if Hamas was justified in their terror attack? jeez Me? No, absolutely not. I hope my post didn't come off that way. They just weren't dumb enough to write "kill as many civilians as possible" in their alleged battleplan they carried with them during the incursion. Edit- and apparently the tweets below indicate that it's being presented as such, so I'm just horribly behind the info right now. ummel fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Oct 14, 2023 |
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Oct 14, 2023 22:17
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The supposed orders recovered from the Hamas fighters seem very suspect, I am not a speaker of Arabic but there are bizarre phrases like calling a dining hall a food hall or the hamza being perfectly placed every time that have been pointed out by native speakers. Reads like it was run through google translate really badly and nobody who speak Arabic tried to punch it up. Also there's a loving watermark on every page so forgive me if that seems a little weird to have on top secret documents. https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1712945098164518999 https://twitter.com/LoopUnhappiness/status/1713156632971010263 https://twitter.com/Marxozoic/status/1713142158276923500
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Oct 14, 2023 22:37
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