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Discendo Vox posted:It may be productive to compare the docs from the NBC report against the map we get a screenshot of from the headcam vid posted in the NYT article earlier. Yeah there is a definitive distinction that needs to be made between what was in the NYT article versus the NBC article. The color coded map in the NYT article is a screengrab from a Hamas commander's helmet cam. The video starts with his unit going through the fence all the way to eventually being killed by IDF. In the middle they get to a base and the commander pulls out the color coded map of said base to figure out where to go. It's definitely not a fake. Most of the other NYT claims about how Hamas seemed to have quite a bit of information ahead of time were also sourced from places like security camera videos. I was asking my questions based on the NYT article stuff, I also saw the NBC article around the same time and left it out because that stuff seemed highly suspicious to me at first glance and I don't even speak or read Arabic.
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Oct 15, 2023 01:28
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 01:29
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mannerup posted:the ISIS flag(s) that were reported to be found at the site of the massacre is something that hasn’t sat right with me at all. it’s the absolute perfect prop for all the ISIS = HAMAS rhetoric that has been part of Israel’s core message. just doesn’t make sense There's lots of extremist groups that will have flags appear that don't make sense if you think critically about it; regardless of the organizations positions as a whole, individuals within it can still be kooky.
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Oct 15, 2023 01:34
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mannerup posted:the ISIS flag(s) that were reported to be found at the site of the massacre is something that hasn’t sat right with me at all. it’s the absolute perfect prop for all the ISIS = HAMAS rhetoric that has been part of Israel’s core message. just doesn’t make sense
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Oct 15, 2023 01:37
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mannerup posted:the ISIS flag(s) that were reported to be found at the site of the massacre is something that hasn’t sat right with me at all. it’s the absolute perfect prop for all the ISIS = HAMAS rhetoric that has been part of Israel’s core message. just doesn’t make sense Its also worth noting that the two organizations are at odds and have been for many years, and not just verbal or political disagreements but enough for Hamas to have raided Mosques to detain and arrest ISIS members. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 01:38
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While we're on the topic of trust in official sources and news outlets. It's pretty clear that IDF are not above spreading some unverified rumours if not outright forgeries to help the cause, which Western media may not review as rigorously as one would expect, and a lot of propaganda is coming from other Israeli government bodies and media. At the same time, I see a lot of reports in Western media citing official statements by the Palestinian Ministry of Health as the primary source. Are their statements usually trustworthy or is there also a possibility that they can be used by Hamas for psyop purposes? I know I ask a lot of probably dumb questions in the thread, but without knowing the languages, I realised, my understanding of the media landscape was really limited, and a lot of time I can't get a good grasp on how to identify the less obvious untruths.
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Oct 15, 2023 01:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:There's lots of extremist groups that will have flags appear that don't make sense if you think critically about it; regardless of the organizations positions as a whole, individuals within it can still be kooky. hamas and isil are opposed in their ideologies. this doesnt make any sense except under a facile "all extremists are allied against us" worldview
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Oct 15, 2023 01:42
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Hamas views them as a threat in Gaza and do not get along with ISIS. They've opposed Salafi-jihadist groups for years and I'd be shocked if a Hamas foot soldier was just running around with an ISIS flag. It would be just loving weird for someone to have shared loyalties. This is from 2019 but their relationship hasn't changed as ISIS has lost even more power. https://www.mei.edu/publications/disrupting-delicate-status-quo-hamas-crackdown-salafi-jihadists
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Oct 15, 2023 01:43
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 01:57
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A big flaming stink posted:hamas and isil are opposed in their ideologies. this doesnt make any sense except under a facile "all extremists are allied against us" worldview My post already accounted for this? When I said that not every individual in an organization thinks rationally? As an example, pro-Russian accounts who have both the Imperial and Soviet flags, and so on. Ideology doesn't matter.
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Oct 15, 2023 02:00
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There’s also the quite likely explanation that goes something like “the IDF is roughly as trustworthy as the Russian MoD and they get caught lying constantly”.
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Oct 15, 2023 02:02
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 02:07
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mannerup posted:someone please correct me if I’m misinformed, but I believe there are two parallel agencies within Gaza that use that label; one is operated by the Palestinian National Authority and the other by Hamas (Health Ministry of the Gaza Strip). I expect for non-Arabic speakers there is going to be a lot of conflation from English statements not making the subtle difference, especially on social media. Okay, that explains some things, thanks. Digging a bit deeper, at least judging by some names mentioned in news articles, Western media tend to cite the PNA one. I understand that PNA are not on very good terms with Hamas, but they are obviously not huge fans of Israeli occupation either. Can their official statements on what's going on in Gaza be generally trusted? Do they even have enough people on the ground there to monitor the situation effectively?
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Oct 15, 2023 02:10
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mannerup posted:the white prosperous argument earlier in the thread I don’t think all of them are.
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Oct 15, 2023 02:12
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Paladinus posted:Okay, that explains some things, thanks. Digging a bit deeper, at least judging by some names mentioned in news articles, Western media tend to cite the PNA one. I understand that PNA are not on very good terms with Hamas, but they are obviously not huge fans of Israeli occupation either. Can their official statements on what's going on in Gaza be generally trusted? Do they even have enough people on the ground there to monitor the situation effectively? When it comes to dead and wounded Palestinians, yes. They're likely significantly under-reporting because they can only report what comes in and what they see and the Israelis have levelled entire city blocks. There's also a tremendous number of videos that alone catalogue hundreds of deaths and injuries. There's also the extremely significant fact that the Israeli spokespeople aren't really denying anything. Usually there's a lot of "these are 60% terrorists or that number is inflated". At the moment the closest is simply "HUMAN SHIELDS!" rhetoric. So, yeah, I'd trust that the figures represent real deaths and injuries but they're the tip of the iceberg. I also should say that Israel has bombed and levelled pretty much every hospital in the north of the Gaza strip. A bunch of medical staff (or their families) are dead. Record keeping will not have a chance to catch up with scope. The final tallies will likely be estimates because of the genocidal campaign. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 02:13
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 02:19
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Speaking of, did anything ever happen with the case of Shireen Abu Akleh, the journalist who was gunned down in public last year? That was another case of the IDF official stance shifting from claiming she was murdered by Palestinians, to claiming that it is impossible to determine what happened, to admitting that it was an IDF soldier, but they've investigated themselves and concluded that it was an accident and no one is to blame. Apparently the DoJ opened an FBI investigation in November, with which Israel refused to cooperate; I'm assuming that's the last thing that's happened?mannerup posted:I have no idea what you are attempting to say here, I’ll gladly answer if you clarify you mistyped "white phosphorous" as "white prosperous," and they are jokingly responding to the latter as though you were referring to a discussion on the prosperity of whites
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Oct 15, 2023 02:30
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 02:39
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Raenir Salazar posted:My post already accounted for this? When I said that not every individual in an organization thinks rationally? As an example, pro-Russian accounts who have both the Imperial and Soviet flags, and so on. Ideology doesn't matter. It's like using a Chinese flag as evidence America was here.
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Oct 15, 2023 02:44
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mannerup posted:the ISIS flag(s) that were reported to be found at the site of the massacre is something that hasn’t sat right with me at all. it’s the absolute perfect prop for all the ISIS = HAMAS rhetoric that has been part of Israel’s core message. just doesn’t make sense There's no way Hamas fighters would be carrying ISIS flags, but there are ISIS-related factions in Gaza. Hamas doesn't get along with them at all, so it's unlikely they'd work together, but Hamas leadership figure Abu Marzouk did suggest that perhaps other factions had used the border breaches Hamas had created to invade Israel themselves and commit massacres without Hamas involvement. Though I don't actually think that's a very credible claim.
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Oct 15, 2023 02:57
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 03:04
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So why is Iran willing to allow Hezbollah to open a second front and risk damaging them over Hamas? Aren't they significantly more powerful than them?
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Oct 15, 2023 03:38
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's like using a Chinese flag as evidence America was here. I'm not sure what you're responding to but that's not what I'm suggesting.
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Oct 15, 2023 04:07
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Willo567 posted:So why is Iran willing to allow Hezbollah to open a second front and risk damaging them over Hamas? Aren't they significantly more powerful than them? Hezbollah can take actions independently of Iran. They’re not Iranian any more than the UK and Australia are American. Will they go beyond tit for tat? Only they know. Israel is unlikely to repeat the 2006 war, as Hezbollah is much stronger and better armed than they were 17 years ago. Also no, in no circumstance are you getting nuked.
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Oct 15, 2023 04:10
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https://x.com/who/status/1713277138437038573?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q This is a very strong statement from the WHO. You don't usually see a big international public health body breaking out the bold type to scream at a country.
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Oct 15, 2023 04:16
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Al Jazeera has some updated statistics related to the death counts in Gaza: 45 entire families wiped out and over 700 dead kids. Just an incredible amount of brutality and indiscriminate murder. Apologies for the screenshot, but it came from Al Jazeera's live blog, and they don't seem to have a way to share individual posts from that except to Twitter and Facebook.  Link to their live blog here:https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/13/israel-hamas-live-dozens-killed-while-fleeing-to-southern-gaza (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Somebody fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 04:24
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/who/status/1713277138437038573?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q That's cool and all but hey United Nations, what are you going to do about it? Israel isn't going to stop unless they are stopped and while I know that Israel's status as the USA's special little airbase means you normally can't do anything to them, I'm sure there must be some exception other than watching your personnel get blown to pieces. For gently caress's sake, the whole reason you exist (other than stopping nukes from flying) is to prevent this kind of thing.
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Oct 15, 2023 04:30
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Mariam Humaid has been keeping an excellent journal on Al Jazeera about civilian life in Gaza right now https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/10/12/the-impossibility-of-a-stolen-moment-as-israeli-bombs-rain-on-gaza
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Oct 15, 2023 04:32
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China’s latest statement is supportive of the “Palestinian national cause” and criticizes Israel’s actions as going too far. I know there’s always a realpolitik explanation for these things, but this particular one is going over my head. I guess Israel = America, so the friend of my enemy is my enemy? I didn’t think China would support a sorta Middle Eastern analogue of Taiwanese independence.
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Oct 15, 2023 05:31
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Vegetable posted:China’s latest statement is supportive of the “Palestinian national cause” and criticizes Israel’s actions as going too far. I know there’s always a realpolitik explanation for these things, but this particular one is going over my head. I guess Israel = America, so the friend of my enemy is my enemy? I didn’t think China would support a sorta Middle Eastern analogue of Taiwanese independence. Considering the Chinese governments treatment of the Uyhgurs, it's probably just a vie for influence and not genuine concern for their wellbeing.
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Oct 15, 2023 06:40
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Vegetable posted:China’s latest statement is supportive of the “Palestinian national cause” and criticizes Israel’s actions as going too far. I know there’s always a realpolitik explanation for these things, but this particular one is going over my head. I guess Israel = America, so the friend of my enemy is my enemy? I didn’t think China would support a sorta Middle Eastern analogue of Taiwanese independence. I dont post much but just some things I've been seeing on the Chinese internet (obviously anecdotal): 1. Most discussion I've seen online is overwhelming pro-Palestine. This is partly due to the fact that Israel is an instigator of imperialism and works with American imperialism. To side with Palestine is to fight against Western imperialism. (In the discourse, "imperialism" often just means "America"). 2. The bad side: lots of online anti-semitism. 3. Politically: China has had offiical political relations with Palestine since 1988 (edit: sorry misremembered a detail: they recognized the state of Palestine in 1988. Not sure if that is the same thing). Palestine has an office in Beijing. If I remember, China has been a continued critic of Israeli military actions (I swear I remember stuff being said even a decade ago) and have continually condemned settlement building. They have long supported Palestinian political movements. So current statements are in-line with the stance that China has had for decades. DaiJiaTeng fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 07:02
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Vegetable posted:China’s latest statement is supportive of the “Palestinian national cause” and criticizes Israel’s actions as going too far. I know there’s always a realpolitik explanation for these things, but this particular one is going over my head. I guess Israel = America, so the friend of my enemy is my enemy? I didn’t think China would support a sorta Middle Eastern analogue of Taiwanese independence. Maybe your presumption that there is realpolitik 3D chess being played is wrong, and China is morally disgusted by what is being done to the people of Gaza.
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Oct 15, 2023 07:39
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PostNouveau posted:Maybe your presumption that there is realpolitik 3D chess being played is wrong, and China is morally disgusted by what is being done to the people of Gaza. Which would be odd, seeing how they have been doing worse to the people they subjugated for a very long time.
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Oct 15, 2023 07:46
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China's stance makes sense in that most of their foreign policy seems around wanting stability in the world in one form or another. Palestine existing as an occupied area of ambiguous status is not sustainable or stable in any long term sense.
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Oct 15, 2023 07:56
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PostNouveau posted:Maybe your presumption that there is realpolitik 3D chess being played is wrong, and China is morally disgusted by what is being done to the people of Gaza. It’s always a throwback to see a comedy post on this forum, like from a poster who last came here in 2002 showed up to make a post. If you’re somehow serious: literally every government is hypocritical and inconsistent. Sometimes their geopolitical concerns get them on the right side of morality, sometimes not. Does literally anyone on the entire planet genuinely think that Russia’s current stance against Israel is because they are morally disgusted by Israel’s impending genocide in Gaza? No. Why would China genuinely care, besides that they do genuinely seem to want stability (though jury is still out on Taiwan)? They could give zero fucks about the Rohingya genocide which is much closer to them and killed way more people, and which they have way more political weight to do something about. They could also not genocide western China and to a lesser extent Tibet, although since those are "only" a cultural genocide and not a murder-spree genocide I guess it could be rationalized separately.
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Oct 15, 2023 07:56
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It is possible to have a negative reaction to suffering and perceived injustice. No matter what country you happen to be from. People who are insanely cynical are tiresome.
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Oct 15, 2023 08:05
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Saladman posted:It’s always a throwback to see a comedy post on this forum, like from a poster who last came here in 2002 showed up to make a post. it's amazing to see all the people in this thread who have grouped the world into "good guys" and "bad guys" and cannot believe their ears when they hear the "bad guys" having an opinion that's righteous and correct. "noooo it must be for some realpolitik reason!" very much 8 year old thinking. one group in power is openly admitting it's intent to massacre a large group of the most deprived people in the world. this isn't a difficult moral test. the fact that 99% of american politicians are siding with the oppressors is what should give you pause, not China siding with the helpless gazans. Edit: typo fixed (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) NoModsNoMasters69 fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 08:23
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Hryme posted:It is possible to have a negative reaction to suffering and perceived injustice. No matter what country you happen to be from. People who are insanely cynical are tiresome. Then I see videos of protesters who look really anguished, but what can they do? People want to believe that justice will prevail. That one day Palestine will be free. Or the people who have a just cause, who are right, will win. But there are many cases in history where people who were right were destroyed, or had legitimate grievances and just lost.
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Oct 15, 2023 08:24
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NoModsNoMasters69 posted:one group in power is openly admitting it's intent to massacre a large group of the most depraved people in the world. this isn't a difficult moral test.
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Oct 15, 2023 08:42
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The natsec outlook in China is shaped in the 1980s/1990s: the late Cold war, then Soviet and Yugoslavian collapse The period featured a decline of I/P as the central feature of Arab world anxieties and the ensuing weakness of the Soviet strategy. The diplomatic isolation of post-treaty Egypt collapses and Egypt even reasserts its leadership position amidst the Iranian Revolution and ensuing Iran-Iraq war; the Arab League returns to Cairo. Staggering levels of Soviet backing of regional proxies fail to pay off as new and old Soviet partners fight open wars with each other (Syria vs the PLO in the Lebanese civil war, Somalia vs Ethiopia in Ogaden), consuming vast amounts of supplied materiel. Secular elements of Palestinian liberationism shed ground to Islamism and the fury of the united Arab world instead turns to criticizing Soviet actions in Central Asia. The US merrily makes off with solidifying military assistance to Egypt and Saudi Arabia. The Soviets retain essentially only Algeria and Libya as stable partners (despite notional criticism of the Afghan war) but both require rather than provide support amidst the 1980s oil glut. So, a return to I/P would seem to be highly beneficial. You risk the support of one country and gain twenty two. The flaw here is the degree of Chinese assistance is tiny compared to Soviet assistance (there are no loyal partners a la Algeria), that China is hurt rather than helped by high oil prices (taking China's Inevitable Rise as given rather than contingent on at least another decade of economic growth is a recurring feature), and that the region has simply demilitarized sharply since the nervous days of the 1970s. Once upon a time Egypt slammed down Soviet levels of %gdp on defence - during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war it was flinging 15% of GDP at military expenses. Today it puts together <2%. Even allowing for generous 'adjustments' due to ambiguities of army ownership, this magnitude of change does not allow for strong cohesion and expansive regional ambitions. Expect a great deal more jaw-jaw than war-war; only countries with really direct stakes would be willing to put forth the cost in blood and treasure. e: all this being said, it's not like China is risking a lot besides embarrassment in forging Iran-Saudi deals; it hasn't landed thousands of 'advisors' or regiments of aircraft as the Soviets might once have. e#2: the shift in Chinese goals is having odd effects in Southeast Asia; I don't think I've ever seen Malaysian Chinese so pro-Palestinian nor Malaysian Malays so apathetic. ronya fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 08:45
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