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GloomMouse posted:For example, Ala Mhigo glosses over the fact that prior to being conquered they were fighting a civil war with a Mad King and everything was poo poo. Do they gloss over that? We had a whole patch about it, Lyse's whole proposed system of government is to avoid another Mad King situation either in potentia or the appearance of doing so in diplomatic relations. "Ala Mhigo was a prosperous region whose king's ruthless paranoia and xenophobia caused a collapse, and just as they'd gotten rid of him and were picking up the pieces in comes Garlemald" was the place's thesis statement pre-Stormblood. It wasn't being talked about every 5 minutes while they were trying to get rid of Garleans, but that's why the patch afterwards was "how do we govern now" not "how does our old traditional ruler do their job" like Doma did.
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Oct 15, 2023 02:57
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Bruceski posted:Do they gloss over that? We had a whole patch about it, Lyse's whole proposed system of government is to avoid another Mad King situation either in potentia or the appearance of doing so in diplomatic relations. "Ala Mhigo was a prosperous region whose king's ruthless paranoia and xenophobia caused a collapse, and just as they'd gotten rid of him and were picking up the pieces in comes Garlemald" was the place's thesis statement pre-Stormblood. Not only that but the entire lead up to the expac was about how hard it was to get the Eorzean alliance to do something in no small part because of the bad blood from the Autumn war to the point we had magical dragon terrorism to force the issue. That plus a huge portion of 4.1 being about that history and side quests ranging from zone quests up to the BRD class quests for the expac are about that.
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Oct 15, 2023 03:11
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It doesn't ignore it entirely, but I think it does gloss. StB fails to drill down into a lot of stuff, and that was just "Hey we need to not make a Tyrant again. That's bad" "Oh yeah, for sure, let's work on that". Just need to boot the empire and everything will be good again, like it was, but it wasn't really, except I guess it was now. I meant in how the people come together as one and there's no bad blood due to it. It's just the kind of thing that an invader would leverage even after they conquered militarily. The focus is on punishing collaborators, and the game does in fact have a Speech and moves along from that (mostly). I can see the people not wanting to go all in on civil war bitter recriminations, but it's a wrinkle that just... isn't. A common sentiment but I feel like there was no space to deal with Ala Mhigo fully, or Doma, because they did both
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Oct 15, 2023 03:14
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GloomMouse posted:It doesn't ignore it entirely, but I think it does gloss. StB fails to drill down into a lot of stuff, and that was just "Hey we need to not make a Tyrant again. That's bad" "Oh yeah, for sure, let's work on that". Just need to boot the empire and everything will be good again, like it was, but it wasn't really, except I guess it was now. I meant in how the people come together as one and there's no bad blood due to it. It's just the kind of thing that an invader would leverage even after they conquered militarily. The focus is on punishing collaborators, and the game does in fact have a Speech and moves along from that (mostly). I can see the people not wanting to go all in on civil war bitter recriminations, but it's a wrinkle that just... isn't. A common sentiment but I feel like there was no space to deal with Ala Mhigo fully, or Doma, because they did both Ala Mihgo won against the Mad King and likely executed or removed his supporters (in fact by the end of the civil war he literally had none because he just kept getting madder and nastier). Then Garlemald (who had been supporting the rebellion against the Mad King) swooped in and Gaius claimed his first Eorzean territory.
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Oct 15, 2023 03:37
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I don't think it's realistic even in fantasy land to believe every soul on the wrong side of a civil war was either killed or let go of all grudges once they got conquered, or that the wounds of the civil war weren't weaponized by the oppressors. At least not a fantasy land that does want to talk about the realities of war.ZenMasterBullshit posted:Not only that but the entire lead up to the expac was about how hard it was to get the Eorzean alliance to do something in no small part because of the bad blood from the Autumn war to the point we had magical dragon terrorism to force the issue. That plus a huge portion of 4.1 being about that history and side quests ranging from zone quests up to the BRD class quests for the expac are about that. Once Illberd laid an egg it was off to the races for Eorzea, so that bad blood stops being important really fast. I'm sure y'all remember the patches better than I do but I don't recall Raubahn griping that he could've done <thing> except Eorzea keeps holding out on him because the Autumn War. It was just generalized hand wavey military logistics stuff? In any case, my larger point was that you could do biting "historical wrongs lead to this mess" in Ala Mhigo, but "that guy is long dead, old news, let's just not do that again" was how it was resolved. And then in Doma they... still don't really get into it but (debatably) do bring it more to the fore GloomMouse fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 04:03
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GloomMouse posted:I don't think it's realistic even in fantasy land to believe every soul on the wrong side of a civil war was either killed or let go of all grudges once they got conquered, or that the wounds of the civil war weren't weaponized by the oppressors. At least not a fantasy land that does want to talk about the realities of war. I mean they had 25 years of imperial occupation that actively destroyed every political faction and every other part of their ruling class, that's what they spend so much of the start of StB showing off in Ala Mhigo. That's the point of the section where you meet the skulls and are shown all the people so beaten down they don't want to fight for anything, their country or interfactional issues. And also that seems...The entire point of all of Ilberd's scheming from 2.X to 3.5 was about how he was grasping at power because Eorzea was holding out and just holding their borders instead of trying to drive Garlemald off the continent. Lots of ARR is about how they barely even wanted to aid their direct neighbors dealing with small incursions and that extends to Ala Mhigo. As early as the level ~21 MSQ we were hearing about how the alliance nations abandoned Ala Mhigo to Garlemald and her people to whatever scraps they could find in the trash. StB covers the bad blood and also the early parts of it are you working with A Resistance group to try and build and normalize assistance between the alliance and them. they don't really gloss over it for as much as it exists in setting. The political forces that caused the civil war have been dead longer than A huge portion of the Ala Mhigans you meet have been alive. If there were still some True Sons of either side existed they'd be...what we see them as in the MNK storyline, small politically weak groups with absolutely no support desperate to grab at what every small bit of legitimacy they could, all of which disappeared the second Lyse and the council sat down on the floor together to build something new. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 04:27
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Also again, by the end of the civil war the Mad King was alone, his allies had turned on him and joined (or been killed by) the Rebellion. There were nearly no sympathizers left because even the people who were riding the tiger had started getting bitten as the Mad King slaughtered his remaining allies out of paranoia and fear. He executed/magically mutated his entire family out of fear they'd try and usurp him due to the rebellion happening.
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Oct 15, 2023 04:32
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dyslexicfaser posted:According to the wiki, Doma was a Garlean province for 25 years. With Gosetsu bouncing for that monk life, Hien's advisors are all foreigners or, at most, 8 years old when Old Doma was conquered. I think whatever Hien and his allies create will only have the form of Old Doma, and not the substance. Yeah like Doma is. for the most part, a smoking crater. I doubt whatever is created next will just be the exact same nation again.
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Oct 15, 2023 04:59
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hopeandjoy posted:One of the sprout diaries I follow on Twitter is this and it drives me nuts. As someone who resonated a lot with that questline, and is morbidly curious, do you mind if I have a link? ConanThe3rd fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 05:07
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The scars of Garlean imperialism are everywhere in Ala Mhigo. In fact, a good chunk - probably MOST - of the sightseeing spots throughout Gyr Abania are places that were once vibrant, now utterly destroyed by imperialism. Just about all your side quests throughout Gyr Abania are about either trying to survive or trying to rebuild, slow and painfully, in the wake of the victory against Garlemald. Even now, Fordola's place in the story is one giant hanging question of how do you move on after this? How do you rebuild? What do you keep that the Imperials brought? What do you try to bring back? Also, we've actually met what's left of the Mad King's former supporters. Remember the Corpse Brigade?
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Oct 15, 2023 05:35
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ProfessorCirno posted:Remember the Corpse Brigade?
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Oct 15, 2023 06:21
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Ala Mhigo, I think, does a decent job of reckoning with it's past, because Ala Mhigo's past is really the Garlean occupation. Not that nothing before the occupation matters, but the occupation was such a defining shift in the history of the nation that it eclipses everything else.
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Oct 15, 2023 06:29
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Quest after quest of "how do we move on after what was done to us" is a whole different thing, and Mr. Sloppy being correct about Eorzea was the end of "the past Autumn War is keeping things from happening." So, again, this leaves dealing with "our sins coming back to bite us" mostly on Doma-content's shoulders. It's not wholly absent from Ala Mhigo, but very weak EDIT: My original post about "gloss" was irt how historical issues are waved away easily in videogames, and if you think that Ala Mhigo just wouldn't have knotty issues because of a war now won, well... okay. I disagree and think the mad king's legacy was boiled down into "Note to self: Don't build a Tyranny" If Ala Mhigo is basically a blank slate starting anew, then Doma was at least moving towards something a little messier, but then gets cold feet. There was more words but it's not that big a deal GloomMouse fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 06:34
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Lord_Magmar posted:Also again, by the end of the civil war the Mad King was alone, his allies had turned on him and joined (or been killed by) the Rebellion. There were nearly no sympathizers left because even the people who were riding the tiger had started getting bitten as the Mad King slaughtered his remaining allies out of paranoia and fear. Also, isn't the Corpse Brigade that hangs around in Southern Thanalan some of the Mad King's old loyal forces turned bandits? Mind you, that could be an interesting story. If there is to be a reckoning and possible reconciliation there. (Which is tough, because their main contribution to the MSQ is an implied sexual assault on one of the refugees in Little Ala Mhigo) (whoops, someone else mentioned it)
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Oct 15, 2023 13:14
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A civil war can have repercussions that linger far past the death of one side's leader. Even more so if the backer of the wining side turns out to be your new conqueror ready to further divide and weaken those that remain. Garlemald apparently forgot to do this in Ala Mhigo, but I guess sometimes you just lose track of things while doing an occupation.
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Oct 15, 2023 14:45
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GloomMouse posted:A civil war can have repercussions that linger far past the death of one side's leader. Even more so if the backer of the wining side turns out to be your new conqueror ready to further divide and weaken those that remain. Garlemald apparently forgot to do this in Ala Mhigo, but I guess sometimes you just lose track of things while doing an occupation. Gaius specifically doesn't want to divide and weaken the people he conquers, he wants to empower and encourage them to become participating members of Garlean society. Is the answer.
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Oct 15, 2023 14:46
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Lord_Magmar posted:Gaius specifically doesn't want to divide and weaken the people he conquers, he wants to empower and encourage them to become participating members of Garlean society. Is the answer. Well... based on the lived experiences of Fordola, he wasn't very thorough about empowering loyalists amongst conquered peoples. It may have been soldiers looking the other way rather than Gaius himself, but they still reported to him.
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Oct 15, 2023 14:56
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Lord_Magmar posted:Gaius specifically doesn't want to divide and weaken the people he conquers, he wants to empower and encourage them to become participating members of Garlean society. Is the answer. Gaius tender touch manifests as the Skulls. Well no, he had soft soft feelings, but alas his army wasn't very nice so you know all that bad stuff kept happening while he wasn't looking EDIT: Let's not talk too much about Gaius and his myopia in this thread GloomMouse fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 14:56
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Gaius was a true believer in "the Empire is supposed to be good for people". I don't want to call him dumb, because he wasn't, but he didn't get all the memos.
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Oct 15, 2023 15:06
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GloomMouse posted:Which is ludicrous, people are slow to change, goes double for a nation.
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Oct 15, 2023 15:37
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GloomMouse posted:A civil war can have repercussions that linger far past the death of one side's leader. Even more so if the backer of the wining side turns out to be your new conqueror ready to further divide and weaken those that remain. Garlemald apparently forgot to do this in Ala Mhigo, but I guess sometimes you just lose track of things while doing an occupation. Again it's been 25 years of brutal occupation that specifically destroyed the country's political body and forces and every attempt at push back they recieved for years. Most of the resistance you meet don't even remember the civil war because they're too young because anyone older.was conscripted or killed. The long term repercussions was the garlean occupation which...naturally realigned the political climate and goals of the average Ala mhigan.
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Oct 15, 2023 15:47
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And again your father killed my father, who's son killed you sister, who killed, etc. is the kind of poo poo civil wars generate, and lose any real connection to politics or even actual history even without an outside force egging it on. Garlemald would surely have done so along with other types of propaganda even later than would 'make sense' logically. The only way out of being a savage is shockingly join the invaders. But you are right in that the civil war, or rather the existence of the mad king, is apparently totally irrelevant right up until it isn't. It's exactly as important for exactly the amount of time they need to toss out a "problem" to keep Lyse and Raubahn busy, and not a jot more. But my point made so far in the distant past of last page was that there could have been some substance, and I floated the king as an option. They chose "nothing much, gtfo so we can be done with this 1.0 ala mhigo thing" Like my god this is easy as poo poo: "The old king was mad as a spoon but Garlemald never would've attacked if you rebels hadn't split the country in twain!" said by a youth that heard her father say something similar and doesn't know poo poo about history "Where'd you get that food eh? Probably licked the boots of an imperial for it. You family served the King like dogs, no doubt you've found a new master" said by a man to another man, neither of which were alive for any of that A thousand variations of this and more, all the shades of "collaborators" and those that punish them, all while Papa Gaius is up at a podium saying to join up and be better than savages There are minor quests that touch on the collaborators stuff in the zones, but the msq centers it around Fordola and the Skulls. When you win, Fordola is in a cell and the people hate her, but otherwise everyone is pretty okay on bygones considering 25 years of imperial propaganda to those that don't have a history outside of it. It should be worse because of the 25 years, not better. I like that ffxiv is positive but good lord give our surplus heroes something a little more substantial as long term task. As it is they got a vague version of Ishgard's "we need to make a government that isn't poo poo" GloomMouse fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 16:02
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GloomMouse posted:And again your father killed my father, who's son killed you sister, who killed, etc. is the kind of poo poo civil wars generate, The answer to this is starvation and the garleans and that has been true for longer than most of the resistance forces have been alive. Which is why the Civil war isn't the primary issue with the majority of them. And for the refugees it's starvation and being left to die by local governments essentially as payback for the autumn war. Which is covered extensively as well as the bad blood it built up. In fact 3.5 ends on a massive ritualistic sacrifice of a massive percentage of those willing to act on that bad blood. Which, alongside the alliance av3tually moving to aid them, is why that sentiment isn't very large in the active resistance. And the fraction of those left over that still care about it are covered in game in multiple plotlines and side quests and fates dating as far back as 2014. They've not glossed over it, they've built it up covered it in detail made you watch a huge number of people harboring such thoughts die to make a big gently caress off dragon and then you beat up a lot of the remaining ones. The whole expac was lead up to Ilberd rallying anyone that held even a little of that flame and resentment in their hearts for the express purpose of using that and setting up their slaughter to make Shinryu. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 17:19
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GloomMouse posted:and lose any real connection to politics or even actual history even without an outside force egging it on. Garlemald would surely have done so along with other types of propaganda even later than would 'make sense' logically. I finished the quote, I know you have trouble with that. The reason it's all bad is Garlemald invaded the country. Garlemald would like that not to be the reason people rally around. They will us tricksy things like "lying" often called "propaganda" to help with that. Pair this with people that can't strike out at the real target seeking something easier like their neighbor, and realize that people can come up with a justification for anything. Garlemald is happy to feed them those justifications. Garlemald is scary because they are pretty successful at being bad guys, and the magitek is only the first step. You don't like the Mad King as a big historical hurdle, even through the writers threw it out half-assedly, please pick something else. Because both sides of Stormblood have very weak finishes to me The Autumn War is why Eorzea isn't gungho to help, not why Ala Mhigan Guy doesn't fight. That guy is tired of losing and I never said otherwise EDIT: I really don't know why you keep bringing it up, since it's about Eorzea's bad blood directed at Ala Mhigo, and once Shinryu pops that stops being important regarding Eorzean intervention all the way through Stormblood. Meanwhile I'm talking about the end. Where after the 25 years oppressors that have, you said, basically obliterated all that poo poo from the people's minds, are kicked out, we are left with some lukewarm "we should make a good government of some kind bc of that king thing I heard about" as the great work ahead. In an expansion focused entirely about invasion and occupation and the horrors that come with it, I expected more, even with ffxiv's lighter hopeful tone. Doma was the backup that might've done more but oops she's dead and Hein is just a guy. Really the take away is just kill enough fascist tanks and everything works out pretty quickly. Which I mean in broad strokes is hard not to get behind lmao but there's more insidious stuff happening in an occupation that doesn't just go away If you don't think the Ala Mhigo side finished weak then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you just don't like a historical source of conflict like the civil war being pulled forward (intentionally), along with the more recent events, as the real and extant problem our extra heroes will be tackling while we port to Doma? Please float something else, you know the game very well and I'm all ears GloomMouse fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 17:30
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I'm not sure what this arguement is even about. "How do we move on" was the subject of 4.1 and in it Ala Mhigo welcomed a beast tribe delegation (they're the first nation in Eorzea to do so!) and established themselves as a democracy. Then you have the whole scene with Fordola, and her being not forgiven, but thanked. It was a show of Ala Mhigo coming to terms in part with the fact that much of the violence inflicted against them was inflicted by their own people, and while they again cannot forgive her for the horrors she committed, they can reflect on her nonetheless being Ala Mhigan. You also have Fordola herself, and like, I dunno how you can claim Ala Mhigo never touches the theme of "horrors of their own past" when that's essentially her entire character! She was given an artificial echo that literally forces her to constantly relive the horrible things she did and lead to! And don't forget Lyse being completely dedicated to making a new Ala Mhigo that lives up to its own anthem of building Ala Mhigo into "a home for all." FFXIV is ultimately a very optimistic game that DOES think you can earnestly talk it out and find peaceful ground with hateful people. You're free to disagree with that; lord knows I do. But that doesn't mean they're completely ignoring it. And yeah, the game fast forwards development, both for pacing reasons and because of said optimism reasons. That once again doesn't meant they're ignoring it.
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Oct 15, 2023 20:42
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FuturePastNow posted:Gaius was a true believer in "the Empire is supposed to be good for people". I don't want to call him dumb, because he wasn't, but he didn't get all the memos. nah, Gaius was dumb as hell. he was a true believer in the imperial cause, and that meant part of integrating Ala Migho was giving Ala Mighans a chance to demonstrate the strength befitting a ruler! by beating the poo poo out of their fellow Ala Mighans! and having the poo poo beaten out of them if they were suspected of not doing it well enough! this is a plan without possibility of flaw or error, because His Radiance the Emperor says that's how it works!
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Oct 15, 2023 20:47
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hien definitely kinda sucks but it's something the story returns to or at least glances at a fair amount and I appreciate that in the whole sweep of the game, one of our regime changes ends like "yeah, this revolution has been deeply imperfect and we sorta just slapped the old kings kid in there because people recognize him and the most dedicated rebels all loved the old king. he won largely thanks to a foreign mercenary army and a multilateral alliance with other states. we basically just resurrected the old social order without thinking very hard about it. his reign is not quite precarious but it is definitely weak and just barely figuring things out. he is getting a fair amount of stuff visibly wrong." it feels a little cheap to have every country immediately sharply shift towards the norms and values of modern social democracy. it would be better if they held on to that tone more strongly or there were more chances to push back on him a little, but ultimately I think it's pretty thematically fitting that the restoration of doma both in and out of game ends up being a messy affair that I have some lingering issues with. I don't necessarily think that's intentional, probably I'd rather have had a version that maybe addressed the matter of the procurer slightly differently and didn't revert yotsuyu to childhood and didn't weigh itself down with clunky writing at key points (did you know GOSETSU has a DEAD DAUGHTER), and in general I'd like it if the game stayed further away than this from issues like sexual violence bc even at best I just don't think it has a structure that lends itself to handling those stories well. That said, the issues 4.2/4.3 do imo create an emotional alignment between the way the characters and the player feel at the end of the story, which is a neat little accident. Valentin fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 21:20
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ProfessorCirno posted:It was a show of Ala Mhigo coming to terms in part with the fact that much of the violence inflicted against them was inflicted by their own people, and while they again cannot forgive her for the horrors she committed, they can reflect on her nonetheless being Ala Mhigan. You also have Fordola herself, and like, I dunno how you can claim Ala Mhigo never touches the theme of "horrors of their own past" when that's essentially her entire character! I like that ffxiv is positive, don't advocate beheading people until happiness is achieved, or that they are completely ignoring well... anything. I didn't say they never touched on horror at all, but Fordola does get a very very raw deal, what with her nightmare eyes and a jail cell and guilt, while everyone else gets to "move on" while the big "problem" is setting up a government with the help of a slew of nice heroes. Perhaps I don't find "Thanks, we still hate you, but we hate you as an ala mhigan" as powerful a positive force as others do. As for the argument, it is apparently inconceivable that ala mhigo's troubled past could be mined and weaponized by professional invader propagandists. I also think that historical wrongs should be more front and center in the content as an "everybody problem" rather than a few main characters as feeling bad/exemplars of it, especially Doma since it brings it up clearly, then it fades. That's just my personal feelings though. I do like messy Doma as well
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Oct 15, 2023 21:35
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Chronometry posted:To be honest, at the time I never really pegged Asahi as an example of the Evil Gay trope. To me his sexual orientation felt incidental to the fact that he was a steaming piece of dogshit. Same, tbh. He's not evil because he's gay, he's evil AND he's also gay! Once again I am very much appreciating your perspective on the story, Sang! I sort of just accepted that Asahi was hateful to Yotsuyu in no-need-to-specify ways when they were growing up, and didn't read anything into his passive face in the flashbacks... clearly pointing out that it was his indifference to her abuse when they were both children that laid the foundation for perspective on her suffering.... ooof. Ouch. I'm even more glad than ever that she got to stab him to death. Also in regards to the digression about... not... depicting the... political aftermath of Ala Mhigo (and also maybe Doma??) enough??? There is only so much screentime able to be given to the MSQ, and this is already an expansion with documented issues in trying to fit too much story into too little space. The story is going to work in broad symbols and gestures and statements and we kind of have to take them at face value. Will Ala Mhigo be okay? Will Doma? What's the political situation gonna be? Who knows, that's a question to consider on its own, we're the Warrior of Light and we've got tomestones to grind out, glams to dye, roulettes to run, and other people needing our assorted heroic asskicking services. Fordola had her moment, Yotsuyu had hers, and I am thinking the writers intend those two to stand in for the greater questions of how these nations are going to proceed from here.
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Oct 15, 2023 22:11
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:nah, Gaius was dumb as hell. he was a true believer in the imperial cause, and that meant part of integrating Ala Migho was giving Ala Mighans a chance to demonstrate the strength befitting a ruler! I doubt that was the plan, he just doesn't have his eye on troops on the ground. He doesn't know how much blood is spilled because he never sees it. Doesn't help that in his time as administrator he was busy taking over bits of Gridania, Mor Dhona, and Thanalan. All that strength of a ruler poo poo was just like Bioshock's "no gods or kings, only man". Except it was just worded far less directly and a little bit easier to swallow when everyone around you keeps materializing mythological deities to solve their problems.
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Oct 15, 2023 22:16
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I mean you're not wrong about space issues, but recognizing they bit off more than they could chew thoroughly doesn't make it better. Also it leaves miserable in a prison cell and conveniently dead as our question/answers. In any case, I'm glad we could all come together and agree Asahi getting stabbed was just fine EDIT: I'd also imagine whoever wrote reports to Gaius, after rolling their eyes, didn't give him the full unvarnished view of his dumbass Good Fascist ideas just to keep him happy and looking away. And of course he'd never bother to check himself GloomMouse fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Oct 15, 2023 |
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Oct 15, 2023 22:23
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Craptacular! posted:I doubt that was the plan, he just doesn't have his eye on troops on the ground. He doesn't know how much blood is spilled because he never sees it. Doesn't help that in his time as administrator he was busy taking over bits of Gridania, Mor Dhona, and Thanalan. beating the poo poo out of Ala Mighans was the way he proved his strength to rule, after all. it would have been discriminatory of him to not give Ala Mighans the same opportunity. there is bizarrely little hate in Gaius' presentation! he really, truly, honestly believes in his own bullshit. which is why Lahabrea was able to lead him by the stupid horned helmet directly into "hey, rebuild a nuke for me. no reason haha" behold the glorious future of the Garlean Empire: one where all can join hands, in administering a savage beatdown to any peasant who looks like they're getting out of line. say what you will about Zenos, the man at least wasn't under the illusion he was doing the people he'd conquered a favor.
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Oct 15, 2023 22:41
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GloomMouse posted:I mean you're not wrong about space issues, but recognizing they bit off more than they could chew thoroughly doesn't make it better. Also it leaves miserable in a prison cell and conveniently dead as our question/answers. In any case, I'm glad we could all come together and agree Asahi getting stabbed was just fine I disagree with you as "miserable in a prison cell" and "dead" being the answers because the answers are in part what the other NPCs say about the situations around them. Hien's assertions, vague though they may be, of building a better Doma, are what we've got to go on. Raubahn and Lyse's intentions RE: Ala Mhigo are the same sort of thing. That Fordola is in a cell and Yotsuyu are dead are complicating factors to this, indicating that the process of doing these things will be ugly and messy. There's a certain amount of gap-filling we've got to do ourselves. There's also the fact that this game being an MMO, there is always a chance that some portion of story will return to dangling threads and tug at them. Which is, perhaps, a cop-out when we need to weigh in on what's happening in the moment, and if what's happening in the moment kind of stinks going "well maybe they'll write something to make it better" is not much of an answer.... but sometimes in this game, a matter is left hanging or unfinished or unresolved or unhappy because the writers are saving it for later. My approach to FFXIV's story is, as a result, one of enjoying the good bits and taking note of the less-good bits to see what might get made of them. But yeah, I am glad we can all come together to hate on Asahi. gently caress that guy.
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Oct 15, 2023 22:41
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Fair enough, definitely there are benefits of it being a long rear end mmo that even cares about story in the first place
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Oct 15, 2023 22:50
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the true uniting factor of FFXIV theorycrafting: gently caress Asahi
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Oct 15, 2023 22:58
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:beating the poo poo out of Ala Mighans was the way he proved his strength to rule, after all. it would have been discriminatory of him to not give Ala Mighans the same opportunity. there is bizarrely little hate in Gaius' presentation! he really, truly, honestly believes in his own bullshit. which is why Lahabrea was able to lead him by the stupid horned helmet directly into "hey, rebuild a nuke for me. no reason haha" behold the glorious future of the Garlean Empire: one where all can join hands, in administering a savage beatdown to any peasant who looks like they're getting out of line. The thing I always come back to with Gaius is that he clearly was not totally naïve about what the Empire is because his first instinct when he heard Rhitahtyn had died was that his subordinates had betrayed him because of racism. We see consistently that the 12th Legion loved Gaius all the way down the chain, and would do anything for him. While one can never be certain of much with Nero, Livia seemed to have a genuine sense of camaraderie with her fellow Tribunis, and she was a pureblood Garlean even if she was living on the streets before she joined the military. The implication is that he was actively teaching his men and his officers to live by his Super Progressive For Realizes strain of Garlean meritocratic ideology, and that he was doing that because he understood that a lot of them were pieces of poo poo without the wisdom to see how they were doing Fascism wrong, much like the scientists who developed and deployed the Black Rose that he killed and those maniacs in the 7th Legion he was actively sabotaging so they couldn't flatten the continent he wanted. The question then becomes how much of the Really Bad poo poo was happening because he didn't know about it, how much was because he thought it was necessary evil to achieve his goals, and how much was his acting politically to maintain the security of his station as a Legatus. One can probably ask similar questions about Regula, for that matter. Hell, for that matter, I wonder what it ultimately says about Varis that he was the patron of the two least-horrible Garlean leaders we've met. He's clearly a bigger monster than either of them given how he was ready to do a genocide on the Vanu just to make a point, but the fact that he was willing to lift them into power and trust them to act with a LOT of autonomy is interesting.
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Oct 16, 2023 01:37
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Nero being willing to just live in Eorzea, even if it's probably mostly because he's on the run from Garlemald and also there to bother Cid, says a lot about him I think.
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Oct 16, 2023 01:42
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Sanguinia posted:One can probably ask similar questions about Regula, for that matter. Hell, for that matter, I wonder what it ultimately says about Varis that he was the patron of the two least-horrible Garlean leaders we've met. He's clearly a bigger monster than either of them given how he was ready to do a genocide on the Vanu just to make a point, but the fact that he was willing to lift them into power and trust them to act with a LOT of autonomy is interesting. I think 1.0 made a point that Gaius was favoured by the Emperor Prior to Varis up until he lost the battle at Silvertear against Midgardsormr and the Emperor decided on the Meteor Plan. Not that he wasn't also given support by Varis, but I believe Gaius was favoured by the guy before Varis and then was more or less acting of his own accord during ARR because that Emperor was nearly dead (and proceeded to die in ARR post-patch after which Varis became Emperor). Varis did oppose the Meteor Project though, which Gaius did a lot of the "groundwork" for stopping on the Garlean side. Edit: If I had to suggest a general narrative statement for why Varis/Regula/Gaius are presented as they are, it's that nobody thinks they're the villain, they believe in their nation and what it stands for and are otherwise rational actors. So instead of the standard abuse their position generates for others, they seek to elevate instead of destroy. Or perhaps destroy through unity and elevation. Final Fantasy XIV has a pretty solid throughline of "Everyone is a person, even the monsters/bad guys". If the Beast Tribes summoning their gods can be given sympathetic or understandable and reasonable characterisation and motivations that show both the good and bad of them, why can't the Garleans. Provided they don't suggest the fascism itself is good, they can show off the positive traits of the characters within the Garlean Empire whilst still making clear the Empire itself and its imperial desires are monstrous. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 02:09
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Sanguinia posted:The thing I always come back to with Gaius is that he clearly was not totally naïve about what the Empire is because his first instinct when he heard Rhitahtyn had died was that his subordinates had betrayed him because of racism. We see consistently that the 12th Legion loved Gaius all the way down the chain, and would do anything for him. While one can never be certain of much with Nero, Livia seemed to have a genuine sense of camaraderie with her fellow Tribunis, and she was a pureblood Garlean even if she was living on the streets before she joined the military. The implication is that he was actively teaching his men and his officers to live by his Super Progressive For Realizes strain of Garlean meritocratic ideology, and that he was doing that because he understood that a lot of them were pieces of poo poo without the wisdom to see how they were doing Fascism wrong, much like the scientists who developed and deployed the Black Rose that he killed and those maniacs in the 7th Legion he was actively sabotaging so they couldn't flatten the continent he wanted. i mostly read Varis as a guy who has very recently won a civil war. He is heavily, HEAVILY invested in getting some competent generals who feel like they owe him into positions of power to shore up his position. particularly given, you know, *gestures at the piece of work he has for an heir*
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Oct 16, 2023 02:34
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Lord_Magmar posted:Final Fantasy XIV has a pretty solid throughline of "Everyone is a person, even the monsters/bad guys". I do feel like sometimes we kinda just get bad people who are just bad people, though. Yotsuyu's parents have pretty much zero traits beyond just being awful people, and similar holds true for some of the Heavens' Ward, some Garleans like Aulus, and even Ascians like Lahabrea. I'll admit that is usually side characters, though.
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Oct 16, 2023 03:18
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