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Inner Light
Jan 2, 2020



IOwnCalculus posted:

While in general I agree, the contrarian pedant in me asks: do you buy new tires the instant you buy a used car, every time you buy a used car? Because I don't, unless the tires are obviously aged/worn out already.

I don’t immediately buy new tires, but in my life experience looking at used cars, most of them will have garbage tires because it is pure economic incentive for the PO to get as much life as possible before trading in. Same with brakes but dealers do actually check those and change them if they’re like 10% life, the same is not true of tires.

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Head Bee Guy
Jun 12, 2011

Retarded for Busting
Grimey Drawer
Back in June, I rented a VW T-Roc from Avis, and promptly got stranded 30 miles from the airport when the clutch completely and inexplicably failed. Now they're trying to charge me $1k for it. Is it even possible to destroy a clutch that fast? I'm great with a stick, and there wasn't any indication that the clutch was giving out; it some point, it just refused to shift into any gears when I was going up a hill.

Anyone had experience fighting rental car companies on this BS?

sleepy gary
Jan 11, 2006

Bajaha posted:

Should be a fairly easy fix.

1. Remove steering wheel (should be able to find a model specific guide online, can be surprisingly easy)

2. Once clock spring is exposed it will either have instructions on centering it, or you do the fool proof method: gently rotate it all the way one way until you encounter resistance.

3. Rotate it the other way, counting the number of turns, until you feel the same resistance.

4. Divide number of rotations in half and spin the clock spring that many times in the opposite direction.

And now it'll be centered.

Thanks, will do this.

wolrah
May 8, 2006
what?

Travic posted:

That's fair. I just want to minimize the amount of damage I do to the transmission while learning.
In a simplified sense you can think of a clutch as having three main wear modes. Below a certain threshold wear is minimal, at a certain point (roughly when you can start to smell it) wear starts to ramp up, and then another level past that you reach the point where you're actively ruining it with every revolution.

As long as you aren't slipping the clutch for extended periods of time under high load you aren't going to get close to that critical temperature. You can slip a clutch for a lot longer than you need to without doing meaningful wear as long as you aren't just riding it. Even if you do get there, if you smell the burning clutch material and take that as a hint to stop doing what you're doing you won't ruin it. It takes continued stubborn stupidity to really kill one in one session.

I had a valet roast mine badly enough the entire car smelled like clutch for a week back in early 2020 and here I am 40,000 miles later still driving on that same clutch with no noticeable effect. Did he take some life off it? Almost certainly. Can I quantify that? Not at all.

opengl
Sep 16, 2010

Just don't do what the nitwit at Firestone did to this poor guy's mustang

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mRQM_T_Br0

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/took-car-in-for-alignment-left-with-burned-clutch.192733/

money making game
Feb 14, 2003

Anyone familiar with GM Passkey 3 intricacies?

09 Pontiac G6, lost original keys and fob and had just the key cut via VIN from local GM dealer. They instructed me to perform the thirty minute relearn procedure. During my first attempt at this process, the security light illuminated and then went out around the ten minute mark as anticipated. After repeating that step for the additional ten minute intervals, the car cranked and started but promptly shut off within 2-3 seconds. Now when attempting the relearn procedure, the security light stays illuminated now matter how long I let they key sit in the ON position, effectively locking me out of moving on to the next steps. Unhooking the battery to "reset" it hasn't helped. Any tips to get me back into a state of relearn mode? Thanks!

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

Ok Comboomer posted:

fiesta st ecoboom is running a bit rough, check engine light is on but not flashing, pulls code P219A(00)- fuel/air mixture out of range in bank 1

any thoughts? Ford forums *spits* say anything from bad hose to bad valve

It’s got a date at a shop I like (they rebuilt my E36’s DME and a few other big jobs, they’ve done a bunch of other good work on my family’s VW and Audi, they see domestics and a lot of recent Volvos which IIRC share a motor architecture so I’m confident they’ll be at least as good as my Ford dealer, and there’s always a bunch of clean 944s parked out front, but they’re always booked weeks out) on Tues and for now I’m not driving it at all.

It was the purge valve assembly, and it was duly replaced along with the various hoses that come attached to it

Travic
May 27, 2007

Getting nowhere fast

wolrah posted:

In a simplified sense you can think of a clutch as having three main wear modes. Below a certain threshold wear is minimal, at a certain point (roughly when you can start to smell it) wear starts to ramp up, and then another level past that you reach the point where you're actively ruining it with every revolution.

As long as you aren't slipping the clutch for extended periods of time under high load you aren't going to get close to that critical temperature. You can slip a clutch for a lot longer than you need to without doing meaningful wear as long as you aren't just riding it. Even if you do get there, if you smell the burning clutch material and take that as a hint to stop doing what you're doing you won't ruin it. It takes continued stubborn stupidity to really kill one in one session.

I had a valet roast mine badly enough the entire car smelled like clutch for a week back in early 2020 and here I am 40,000 miles later still driving on that same clutch with no noticeable effect. Did he take some life off it? Almost certainly. Can I quantify that? Not at all.

Gotcha. I'm slipping it for about a second or less at 1-2k rpm when getting moving and again for a split second getting into 2nd. Above that I have the timing to release the clutch fast. Funny story though: The reason I'm so paranoid about wearing it out is because I have no sense of smell. The drat thing could be on fire and I couldn't smell it.

Cage
Jul 17, 2003
www.revivethedrive.org

Travic posted:

Gotcha. I'm slipping it for about a second or less at 1-2k rpm when getting moving and again for a split second getting into 2nd. Above that I have the timing to release the clutch fast. Funny story though: The reason I'm so paranoid about wearing it out is because I have no sense of smell. The drat thing could be on fire and I couldn't smell it.
Yeah, thats the ticket.

As you can see in the video posted below, if you slip it bad enough you'll see smoke.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Travic posted:

Gotcha. I'm slipping it for about a second or less at 1-2k rpm when getting moving and again for a split second getting into 2nd. Above that I have the timing to release the clutch fast. Funny story though: The reason I'm so paranoid about wearing it out is because I have no sense of smell. The drat thing could be on fire and I couldn't smell it.

by nature the clutch has to slip a little bit when you get moving because you have to match rotational speed (at 1st gear ratio) between the moving engine and stopped wheels. i wouldn't worry about it too much, it sounds like you're mostly doing that right. Not sure why you're slipping the clutch getting in to 2nd. are you shifting out of 1st early?

if you're really worried about it take a video of yourself doing it and :justpost:

VelociBacon
Dec 8, 2009

Clutches are designed to slip a bit and you shouldn't feel bad when it does so, especially from a stop!

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

Ok Comboomer posted:

It was the purge valve assembly, and it was duly replaced along with the various hoses that come attached to it

car feels “weird”. Like it doesn’t accelerate as fast or as peppy as it used to. I might be spoiled and warped by having driven a Model 3 while it was in the shop, but I could’ve sworn that this car was zippier to 60.

I don’t think it’s the clutch, it still bites the way I remember and it doesn’t feel like it’s slipping. Plus, I know this shop well and these aren’t the type of guys to go joyriding (and if they are then they aren’t the type to ruin a clutch while doing so).

The car just feels *slower*, like it was detuned or like maybe the turbo isn’t spooling as fast, but again I think I might just be losing my mind.

My other thought is it might be a stuck caliper/brake pad. I have a Nov 6 appointment for the brake pads+rotors. I had the shop check them and give me the approval to drive on them until then, but AFAIK they just did a quick visual check after the requested service was already done and the car was off the lift, and didn’t actually rotate the wheels/etc.

VelociBacon
Dec 8, 2009

Ok Comboomer posted:

car feels “weird”. Like it doesn’t accelerate as fast or as peppy as it used to. I might be spoiled and warped by having driven a Model 3 while it was in the shop, but I could’ve sworn that this car was zippier to 60.

I don’t think it’s the clutch, it still bites the way I remember and it doesn’t feel like it’s slipping. Plus, I know this shop well and these aren’t the type of guys to go joyriding (and if they are then they aren’t the type to ruin a clutch while doing so).

The car just feels *slower*, like it was detuned or like maybe the turbo isn’t spooling as fast, but again I think I might just be losing my mind.

My other thought is it might be a stuck caliper/brake pad. I have a Nov 6 appointment for the brake pads+rotors. I had the shop check them and give me the approval to drive on them until then, but AFAIK they just did a quick visual check after the requested service was already done and the car was off the lift, and didn’t actually rotate the wheels/etc.

If your brake was dragging enough for you to notice it being slower you'd having a smoking hot brake that you'd be able to smell, and the car would likely be pulling to that side.

Electric vehicles ofc do accelerate like crazy so it could just be what you're used to.

Travic
May 27, 2007

Getting nowhere fast

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

by nature the clutch has to slip a little bit when you get moving because you have to match rotational speed (at 1st gear ratio) between the moving engine and stopped wheels. i wouldn't worry about it too much, it sounds like you're mostly doing that right. Not sure why you're slipping the clutch getting in to 2nd. are you shifting out of 1st early?

if you're really worried about it take a video of yourself doing it and :justpost:

I usually shift to second between 10 and 15 mph.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Travic posted:

I usually shift to second between 10 and 15 mph.

doesn't really mean anything to me. how many rpms

Travic
May 27, 2007

Getting nowhere fast

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

doesn't really mean anything to me. how many rpms

2,000-3,000 rpm. Probably too high, but I'm still experimenting.

nitsuga
Jan 1, 2007

Head Bee Guy posted:

Back in June, I rented a VW T-Roc from Avis, and promptly got stranded 30 miles from the airport when the clutch completely and inexplicably failed. Now they're trying to charge me $1k for it. Is it even possible to destroy a clutch that fast? I'm great with a stick, and there wasn't any indication that the clutch was giving out; it some point, it just refused to shift into any gears when I was going up a hill.

Anyone had experience fighting rental car companies on this BS?

It’s highly unlikely that you caused the issue in any meaningful way.

As far as dealing with the fallout, I think being polite but remaining adamant that this is not a problem you caused is your first course of action. Get as high up the chain as you can. Take notes on your conversations. Don’t pay them anything though.

Beyond that, calling a lawyer, writing in to “Tripped Up” or similar, or a plain old social media tell-all would be some possibilities.

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

Travic posted:

2,000-3,000 rpm. Probably too high, but I'm still experimenting.

that’s generally where most cars are designed to shift

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Travic posted:

2,000-3,000 rpm. Probably too high, but I'm still experimenting.

yeah you should be good to go letting the clutch out pretty quick like a bunny. it's not a lightswitch so you keep a little pressure on, if i have to describe poorly it's

1) fast out to engagement point with almost no pressure on pedal
2) slight pressure on pedal to slow rate of ascent, pedal still coming up but slower
3) once engaged, no pressure as the pedal returns to top of travel

it's a feel thing, you gotta just do it over and over and over again, and every car is different. i get kind of hosed up going from the heavy aftermarket clutch on a 23 year old V8 with 370 lb-ft of torque to the light modern clutch on our little 184 lb-ft 4cyl awd wagon.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Oct 16, 2023

Travic
May 27, 2007

Getting nowhere fast

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

yeah you should be good to go letting the clutch out pretty quick like a bunny. it's not a lightswitch so you keep a little pressure on, if i have to describe poorly it's

1) fast out to engagement point with almost no pressure on pedal
2) slight pressure on pedal to slow rate of ascent, pedal still coming up but slower
3) once engaged, no pressure as the pedal returns to top of travel

it's a feel thing, you gotta just do it over and over and over again, and every car is different. i get kind of hosed up going from the heavy aftermarket clutch on a 23 year old V8 with 370 lb-ft of torque to the light modern clutch on our little 184 lb-ft 4cyl awd wagon.

Got it. Thanks for the advice. My transmission will appreciate me flailing around less while learning.

honda whisperer
Mar 29, 2009

Ok Comboomer posted:

car feels “weird”. Like it doesn’t accelerate as fast or as peppy as it used to. I might be spoiled and warped by having driven a Model 3 while it was in the shop, but I could’ve sworn that this car was zippier to 60.

I don’t think it’s the clutch, it still bites the way I remember and it doesn’t feel like it’s slipping. Plus, I know this shop well and these aren’t the type of guys to go joyriding (and if they are then they aren’t the type to ruin a clutch while doing so).

The car just feels *slower*, like it was detuned or like maybe the turbo isn’t spooling as fast, but again I think I might just be losing my mind.

My other thought is it might be a stuck caliper/brake pad. I have a Nov 6 appointment for the brake pads+rotors. I had the shop check them and give me the approval to drive on them until then, but AFAIK they just did a quick visual check after the requested service was already done and the car was off the lift, and didn’t actually rotate the wheels/etc.

If they unplugged the battery it may be the ECU learning. Basically adjusting the throttle mapping and fuel and ignition trims. Every time I unplug the battery on my BRZ it's noticeably weird for a bit.

Key on engine off and slowly depressing and releasing the throttle pedal 10x helps speed this learning process up a lot.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010



Travic posted:

Got it. Thanks for the advice. My transmission will appreciate me flailing around less while learning.

If it helps, somehow everything you learn ends up transferring to other manuals despite them having different gearing, power bands, shifter throws, all of that. There's a learning period before it's completely smooth, but once you get used to driving stick you could hop in almost any random stick-shift car and drive it just fine. At most you'll give it too much/too little gas from a stop if it has a lot more/lot less power.

Exceptions apply if you're driving a column-mounted manual shifter or some weird post-ware European thing but I'm talking about the non-AI stickshift cars.

Steve French
Sep 8, 2003

I had to teach my wife that it was perfectly fine to rev our car past 7k before shifting and I encouraged doing so regularly

Dr. Lunchables
Dec 27, 2012

IRL DEBUFFED KOBOLD



Steve French posted:

I had to teach my wife that it was perfectly fine to rev our car past 7k before shifting and I encouraged doing so regularly

You got some NA VTEC Honda?

Steve French
Sep 8, 2003

Dr. Lunchables posted:

You got some NA VTEC Honda?

RS4. I’ll have to walnut blast it again at some point but in the meantime why not enjoy the high revs and push it off a bit?

wesleywillis
Dec 30, 2016

SUCK A MALE CAMEL'S DICK WITH MIRACLE WHIP!!
My old Mazda redlined at 7000 and I'd regularly exceed that and bump in to the rev limiter at 7400.

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.
How much extra cost do cat cages add to the cost of doing exhaust service / replacing the cat? A ton of cars with cat cages were probably not that old when they were installed, but they're getting up there now: https://www.thedrive.com/news/toyota-prius-on-la-craigslist-has-a-catalytic-converter-cage-like-a-federal-prison

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

by Fluffdaddy
cope cages for your car

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010



Just wire your catalytic converter to your hybrid battery so that anyone that touches it gets electrocuted (do not do this).

Ethics_Gradient
May 5, 2015

Common misconception that; that fun is relaxing. If it is, you're not doing it right.
2nd Gen Prius I looked at today:

Little Amazon OBDII reader just paid for itself, the '05 Prius I looked at threw P1121 and P1150 codes on startup. My app erroniously reports those as throttle position sensor intermittent high voltage and HO2S21 switch/adaptive fuel at limit; Google reveals they are actually a bad sensor in the 3-way coolant valve (not uncommon) and a block or bubble in the coolant system. From looking at YT I think odds are decent I can handle replacing the valve on my own ($36/80 for generic/OEM), but I've never really worked on coolant systems before and have limited skill/facilities to do much more if that doesn't clear the 1150 code as well. What do you all reckon my chances are like the valve will fix both, or worst case, roughly how many hours of labor would I be looking at with a mechanic?

When I asked the seller about the CEL (didn't tell him the codes) he said he got the it when fuel dropped below half; if he unscrewed the gas cap and put it back in or filled it all the way up it went away. Sounds like an unrelated issue; any ideas on what that could be and if it's potentially an easy fix/something to worry about?

Car presents and drives well for its age/190k miles otherwise, but will need new tyres and likely front struts. He is asking 4,600, was willing to do 4,400 when I mentioned the tyres and suspension, but may be willing to go a little lower.

Twerk from Home posted:

How much extra cost do cat cages add to the cost of doing exhaust service / replacing the cat? A ton of cars with cat cages were probably not that old when they were installed, but they're getting up there now: https://www.thedrive.com/news/toyota-prius-on-la-craigslist-has-a-catalytic-converter-cage-like-a-federal-prison



Planning to buy one of these myself (one of the steel plates, not that DIY jobbie), my reasoning is that it's not a part of your car that should need frequent servicing so it shouldn't be much of an issue. If you're really concerned, rather than riveting it, you could just use a weird fastener type and give the shop the socket for it. I'm just going to check out a riveter from my local tool library and use that.

Blame Pyrrhus
May 6, 2003

Me reaping: Well this fucking sucks. What the fuck.
Pillbug
Stupid question

There used to be a couple AI regulars that were parts vendor. I'm looking to pick up an exhaust for my IS500 and every parts website I come across looks like some fly-by-night store that may or may not ever actually ship my order. Is there a reliable vendor that folks around here trust?

Scruffy the janitor
Dec 31, 2007

A greater tragedy my eyes have never beheld
I'm planning on selling my 370Z. I really don't want to have the headache of fb marketplace or CL. Is there a best website to sell a car these days? Autotrader? I'm planning on getting a CarMax offer, but I won't be surprised if it's poo poo and I'm not in a huge hurry. I have a second vehicle.


E: I know there's a marketplace thread but it isn't very high traffic. I'll probably put it there too.

Scruffy the janitor fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Oct 18, 2023

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

Scruffy the janitor posted:

I'm planning on selling my 370Z. I really don't want to have the headache of fb marketplace or CL. Is there a best website to sell a car these days? Autotrader? I'm planning on getting a CarMax offer, but I won't be surprised if it's poo poo and I'm not in a huge hurry. I have a second vehicle.


E: I know there's a marketplace thread but it isn't very high traffic. I'll probably put it there too.

BaT or Doug-n-Bids or ebay motors

Cage
Jul 17, 2003
www.revivethedrive.org

Scruffy the janitor posted:

I'm planning on selling my 370Z. I really don't want to have the headache of fb marketplace or CL. Is there a best website to sell a car these days? Autotrader? I'm planning on getting a CarMax offer, but I won't be surprised if it's poo poo and I'm not in a huge hurry. I have a second vehicle.
I recently sold an "enthusiast" car on FB and it wasn't a hassle at all. I received two messages and sold to the 2nd guy. Priced it fair, higher than what I paid but not trying to make a big profit.

"trade u a red boat from 1987 and some nunchucks" probably won't happen.

melon cat
Jan 21, 2010

Nap Ghost
So about paint protection film. Just got a new vehicle (2023 Sienna) and where I live the roads are in awful shape and trucks kick up lots of stones. Already have a stone chip on the lower third of my vehicle hood so I’ll be getting PPF put on.

Any point in doing the ENTIRE hood ($600 CAD) or should I just opt for getting the lower partial hood ($320 CAD) done? In my experience the worst chip damage occurs on the lower part of the hood.

wesleywillis
Dec 30, 2016

SUCK A MALE CAMEL'S DICK WITH MIRACLE WHIP!!

melon cat posted:

So about paint protection film. Just got a new vehicle (2023 Sienna) and where I live the roads are in awful shape and trucks kick up lots of stones. Already have a stone chip on the lower third of my vehicle hood so I’ll be getting PPF put on.

Any point in doing the ENTIRE hood ($600 CAD) or should I just opt for getting the lower partial hood ($320 CAD) done? In my experience the worst chip damage occurs on the lower part of the hood.

I'd probably recommend the light coverage as shown on this site.

https://westsidepro.ca/paint-protection-film/

Ethics_Gradient
May 5, 2015

Common misconception that; that fun is relaxing. If it is, you're not doing it right.
So I bought the Prius, even with those (relatively minor, AFAIK) issues it's been the best deal I've seen in a while, I need a car sooner rather than later, and seller was willing to come down on the price a bit.

Got questions about :
1) Reverse camera
2) Installing a cat shield

1) Would like to add a reverse camera as I'll often have the back window blocked, although the 05's didn't come with one as an option, there's already a knockout panel by the license plate at least. Apparently the 05's LCD screen is lower res than the 06+ so I couldn't just add an OEM one without also swapping out the console, so I'm in the market for a budget camera + rear view mirror LCD combo. Actually, I'd probably be willing to spend a bit more if it had dashcam functionality.

2) I ordered a cat shield from Amazon that should get here in a few days. One comment I've noticed in reviews (not just for this one) is that the shields can rattle, so I bought some high temp (1800F) felt for soldering to put between the shield and underbody of the car and hopefully keep it quiet.

My thinking was to cut out little squares or strips and put them where the fasteners go through (poke a little hole in the middle); I don't want to create a complete seal around the shield out of concern for possibly causing more airflow issues than it already does. I was originally planning to just sandwich the felt between the two during the install, but was thinking a bit of JB Weld's Extreme Temp formulation to tack the little pieces on there would make things easier on me. Any reason not to?

Scruffy the janitor posted:

I'm planning on selling my 370Z. I really don't want to have the headache of fb marketplace or CL. Is there a best website to sell a car these days? Autotrader? I'm planning on getting a CarMax offer, but I won't be surprised if it's poo poo and I'm not in a huge hurry. I have a second vehicle.


E: I know there's a marketplace thread but it isn't very high traffic. I'll probably put it there too.

It's not that hard to just ignore the mouthbreathers. Post an ad that requires a bit of reading comprehension and ignore every "Is this available?" you get. It's probably worth the couple grand in hassle.

KakerMix
Apr 8, 2004

8.2 M.P.G.
:byetankie:

Scruffy the janitor posted:

I'm planning on selling my 370Z. I really don't want to have the headache of fb marketplace or CL. Is there a best website to sell a car these days? Autotrader? I'm planning on getting a CarMax offer, but I won't be surprised if it's poo poo and I'm not in a huge hurry. I have a second vehicle.


E: I know there's a marketplace thread but it isn't very high traffic. I'll probably put it there too.


Ethics_Gradient posted:


It's not that hard to just ignore the mouthbreathers. Post an ad that requires a bit of reading comprehension and ignore every "Is this available?" you get. It's probably worth the couple grand in hassle.

It's this, essentially. If you have *any* inkling of weirdness then do not deal with that person. You have the car, you have all the power, the buyer has none. You owe them nothing at all an can decide at anytime to just change your mind. Selling lots of high-dollar cars on Craigslist and Facebook it becomes a lot easier to deal with when you adopt this philosophy.
I also realize that it's a different thing when we've been doing it for years and a bit over 100 cars and just a single car, but really, it isn't a big deal. If you don't need to sell it it's even easier.

Scruffy the janitor
Dec 31, 2007

A greater tragedy my eyes have never beheld
Thanks for the answers. I'll try to use the normal channels. I do have the convenience of not being in a huge rush

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Awkward Davies
Sep 3, 2009
Grimey Drawer

IOwnCalculus posted:

While in general I agree, the contrarian pedant in me asks: do you buy new tires the instant you buy a used car, every time you buy a used car? Because I don't, unless the tires are obviously aged/worn out already.

Outside of that, if you can afford new tires, they're almost always the best option. The only edge case I can think of is if you're driving a vehicle where a lot of new buyers of that vehicle are driving straight to a shop to put on aftermarket wheels and tires - think trucks and Wranglers. Even then you're taking a small gamble on whether or not you'd benefit from the manufacturer's warranty on those tires.

I bought this car from a dealership, it had been leased previously so I bought it with 12k miles on it. TBH I didn’t know enough to even consider the tires. I think the tires I just replaced were stock. They lasted about 47k miles.

Turns out the PO had somehow damaged the clutch so I had to have it replaced once it started slipping maybe 10k miles later. Thank god I didn’t have to pay for it though.

To close the loop I got the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S. Got them put on today and took a canyon road on the way home. I swear the ride was better, car was more responsive, and felt more secure in the tight canyon curves.

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