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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 20:04
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah the October 7th attack enormously swung opinion in favour of Israel, it will likely still be a while before we're even back to what it was before. See also UK polling: most ppl simply don't know nor care: 
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Oct 16, 2023 20:05
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Count Roland posted:Yes, but the regional actors don't actually have much on the line here. From earlier today but to be clear, I agree with all of this. I don't think a general war is at all likely; just that if it happens, I wouldn't be at all surprised that it happened because someone made a serious mistake in their estimation of someone else's willpower to continue. In fact thinking about it I'd probably be more surprised if anyone decided to escalate on purpose, except perhaps Hezbollah if they decided they have to get involved before Israel finishing razing Gaza and can turn a lot more attention to the north. I'm also in agreement that really if anything expands it'll be in the West Bank. e; On my Strategic Studies course it was taken as gospel that anyone in a warzone is doing their damndest to put anything valuable behind human shields, in facilities like schools and hospitals, etc.. The only reason anyone doesn't do that is when they have the strength to not need to bother. I can't say I saw much proof one way or the other but both longtime professors and actual serving military from various countries were united in this belief. Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 20:12
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Addressing:wins32767 posted:It is strategically very advantageous for Hamas to maximize the collateral damage that Israel causes with any attempt to damage Hamas in any way. Frankly I'd be shocked if Hamas didn't make sure that they had some kind of weapons depot, base, etc. in most large apartment buildings and every hospital and school in areas in Gaza they control. by user wins32767, the above is a direct quote and there is no intention of strawmanning nor otherwise to construct a false argument to debate against. Wars not fought between peers will usually result in the weaker army stationing in obscurer, less likely to hit targets. This doesn't really speak to the morality of a given army moreso than the necessity; if you don't have control over your airspace nor any other form of missile defense, it's a pretty bad idea to garrison up in a building that may as well say "PLEASE BOMB ME" on the roof. We saw this in Afghanistan, in Vietnam, and in several other guerilla wars. There is a morale factor as well; these tactics require the occupying force to either individually clear out buildings (which usually results in casualties in the guerilla's favor), or for them to risk harming citizens of the territory, which in theory alienates the citizens from the occupying force, and demoralizes the less-insane members of the occupying force. The important factor here is that the blame lies with the occupying force; they saw the civilians, and decided to do it anyways. The answer to these tactics is usually to build up a rapport with the occupied citizens that makes them unwilling to house guerillas, marginalizing where they can operate, as well as deploying smaller forces capable of navigating urban environments. The issue with applying this to Israel-Palestine, of course, is that Israel doesn't have any remorse for killing Palestinians, and don't want Palestinian civilians. So they don't care if the citizens die, they don't care if it radicalizes the Palestinian citizens, and by-and-large the pilots are detached enough that they don't care either. There's outliers, of course, but those outliers usually find a more narcissistic way to cleanse their conscience that generally isn't actually dangerous to the status quo. This is compounded with the fact that IDF soldiers are extremely bad at ground assaults; a heavy US-style overreliance on air supremacy has degraded their capabilities, as evident during the Lebanon war, the invasions during Operation Protective Edge, and during the recent Gaza breakout. So it's even less palatable an option than normal. Anyways, another national leader has condemned Israel: Petro Says Colombian Gov’t Does Not Support Israeli Genocide Gustavo Petro, President of Colombia posted:Colombian President Gustavo Petro said Sunday that his government does not support genocides and will suspend foreign relations with Israel if necessary.  By the way, I have an earnest request for Israeli and Hebrew-literate goons in the thread: 1. Is the translation here accurate? 2. Does Yasmin Porat have an untrustworthy history? Is this clip misleadingly edited? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPeRSVgUpQ It's posted by Electronic Intifada, but it's allegedly taken from Haboker Hazeh, an Israeli radio show. I've been seeing it shared in a few places, but it's not caught on in leftist circles or repeated by a lot of most vocal leftist figures, which has me suspicious about it. It's also been deleted a few times on Twitter but that doesn't mean too much right now. Mainly notable because she details how the events went down; Hamas took a number of rave attendees hostage (including her), split them up into multiple groups, the group she was in had the hostages call the police so that they could negotiate, which culminates in the IDF firing at Hamas soldiers holding the hostages (killing the hostages and presumably the soldiers) as well as firing tank rounds into the building. Mainly interesting in that we haven't had much English coverage on how these specific hostage situations resolved (beyond the IDF saying "we freed them all") that I've seen. Undoubtedly the clip skips past parts where she denounces the Hamas soldiers & details terrible things that they did, but I'm interested in this part. It syncs up with the poor performance of the IDF as-of late, as well as the fact that "we don't negotiate with terrorists" style crisis teams have had an incredibly poor track record of actually rescuing hostages.
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Oct 16, 2023 20:38
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Neurolimal posted:The issue with applying this to Israel-Palestine, of course, is that Israel doesn't have any remorse for killing Palestinians, and don't want Palestinian civilians.
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Oct 16, 2023 21:13
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Roof knocking is the most naked hand washing poo poo. Something plunks the top of your roof. Is it warning of an impending attack? Is it debris from elsewhere? Welp hopefully you and everyone near can hear it, can figure out if it's a legitimate warning, can figure out which direction they need to head, how far, how they're going to get there, and can manage to get there within an hour or so. Or Or, in the UN's words “In an area with buildings all around, how can the recipient of such a ‘roof-knock’ know which building he or she should avoid if this is not specified in the message? ... Based on the warning that a building close to one’s own will be targeted, while a person may be willing to leave the house, he or she cannot know in what direction to escape.” So yeah, they do in fact mostly just do roof knocking for PR reasons. Even a clear warning you're about to commit crimes against humanity don't make you any less guilty of doing them. TGLT fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 21:22
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wins32767 posted:This is a pretty much dehumanizing take on the Israelis involved rather than taking a hard look at their worldview and seeing them as humans doing some terrible stuff because they have some historical reasons to think the alternative is worse.
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Oct 16, 2023 21:26
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wins32767 posted:So they have only knocked on the roofs of buildings before they bomb them for purely PR reasons? Or is it possible that they do care, just not as much as they care about doing what they think will minimize harm to their own citizens? This is a pretty much dehumanizing take on the Israelis involved rather than taking a hard look at their worldview and seeing them as humans doing some terrible stuff because they have some historical reasons to think the alternative is worse. The whole situation is awful and the systems and incentives involved for all the actors point towards violence indefinitely, but that doesn't make them inhuman as you're implying here. A warning to evacuate an apartment building that gives you 60 seconds of grace before the building is destroyed is not actually a warning at all. I would be amazed if most occupants even on the lower floors could get out in time.
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Oct 16, 2023 21:28
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Neurolimal posted:those outliers usually find a more narcissistic way to cleanse their conscience that generally isn't actually dangerous to the status quo. I'm honestly somewhat floored to read this article. Not because it is something foreign to me, but because it's something I've heard so many times that I almost didn't click the link because I thought I already knew it. The image of the soldier, openly weeping as he raises his gun in defense of the nation, who is not thought to be a weak man through his tears, but a strong one who accepts his duty as a whole human who finds regret in the violence despite the duty. That was a large part of the self image of the Nazi infantry, not as stone faced killers, but as sensitive souls who seek to simply protect their fatherland from invaders, with "tears in their eyes". You can find dozens of stories of commanders weeping openly as they command a village to be exterminated, written without mockery by German biographers. To see Israeli soldiers latch onto the same concept is jarring.
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Oct 16, 2023 21:29
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wins32767 posted:So they have only knocked on the roofs of buildings before they bomb them for purely PR reasons? Or is it possible that they do care, just not as much as they care about doing what they think will minimize harm to their own citizens? This is a pretty much dehumanizing take on the Israelis involved rather than taking a hard look at their worldview and seeing them as humans doing some terrible stuff because they have some historical reasons to think the alternative is worse. The whole situation is awful and the systems and incentives involved for all the actors point towards violence indefinitely, but that doesn't make them inhuman as you're implying here. It's called covering your rear end. They say they give the occupants ample warning, and then when they level the building they claim that anyone still inside must be Hamas. And even if the innocent civilians do manage to escape in time, they're now suddenly homeless with all their possessions destroyed. If the IDF actually cared about minimizing harm, they wouldn't be destroying buildings that people live in. And there's nothing dehumanizing about calling them out on this, what the gently caress. Humans do terrible poo poo to each other all the time.
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Oct 16, 2023 21:29
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wins32767 posted:Oh, I wouldn't assume that everyone that works or lives in a building knows more than say 10% of what goes on in that building. There could literally be terrorists in my office building or in the converted factory across the street from my house and I'd have no idea. That said, if there was a large hospital complex and I was a crazed terrorist leader, you better believe I'm digging tunnels under it and putting a big arms depot there. Every major depot or base or strategically valuable target would be under or in something that would cause a lot of uproar if it got blown up. Every single one. If these hypothetical secret weapons depots are hidden so well that the people who live and work in these buildings every day don't have any idea about them, then how would Israel know about them? Usually the answer would be "they have really good military intelligence and a bunch of spies", but recent events have cast serious doubt on that theory. Besides, "strategically valuable" is a euphemism, one so vague as to be meaningless - and Israel relies on euphemisms like that exactly because their vagueness makes them easy to stretch. For example, Israel heavily restricts the import of construction materials or equipment (like cement, pipes, or bulldozers) into Gaza, saying that these materials could be strategically valuable for Hamas. Because, of course, Hamas could potentially use these construction materials to build dedicated military facilities, such as weapons depots or fortified bunkers. Isn't it interesting how it all rolls together into a no-win situation? Israel denies basic building materials to the entire population of the Gaza Strip so that Hamas can't build anything fortified, while using extensive spying and surveillance to discover and destroy any hints of secret or underground construction attempts done with smuggled or diverted materials. Then they blow up civilian infrastructure and claim Hamas was using it. They use their overwhelming military superiority and the overarching collective punishment policies to create a situation in which Hamas is wrong no matter what they do. If Hamas builds their own military facilities, they're accused of being aid thieves; if they don't, Israel blows up civilian facilities and claims that Hamas was using them.
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Oct 16, 2023 21:37
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wins32767 posted:This is a pretty much dehumanizing take on the Israelis involved rather than taking a hard look at their worldview and seeing them as humans doing some terrible stuff because they have some historical reasons to think the alternative is worse. The whole situation is awful and the systems and incentives involved for all the actors point towards violence indefinitely, but that doesn't make them inhuman as you're implying here. There's nothing inhuman about it, it's extremely human. It's absurd and monstrous, but it's extremely human. They got some land and feel they need more so they invent a reason why it's actually totally okay for them to start just moving in to their neighbors' land. When it comes to blows they react harshly and lump every single one of their opponents together into an axis of evil and declare that there is no such thing as an innocent civilian when your enemy is that monstrous. A large amount of the population supports the violence because it gets them more material resources or a leg up in society. Israel learned every lesson that the history of the United States taught, without understanding why those things were bad.
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Oct 16, 2023 21:40
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 21:41
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Typo posted:most ppl simply don't know nor care: In any case I'm not really sure why obliterating Gaza would impact Israeli standing in the world. Russia did it to Grosnyj, the US to Fallujah and Iraq to Mosul. In every case the world moved on and forgot in short order. Why would this be different?
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Oct 16, 2023 21:41
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If Israel doesn't care whether a building is actually being used by Hamas for military purposes or not then why doesn't just systemically bomb every single building to rubble like the Nazis did in Warsaw Poland? Like how does their targeting work if they are just bombing random buildings?
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Oct 16, 2023 21:45
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https://www.theonion.com/the-onion-stands-with-israel-because-it-seems-like-yo-1850922505
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Oct 16, 2023 21:50
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Charliegrs posted:If Israel doesn't care whether a building is actually being used by Hamas for military purposes or not then why doesn't just systemically bomb every single building to rubble like the Nazis did in Warsaw Poland? Like how does their targeting work if they are just bombing random buildings? Netanyahu stated back in 2019 that they "control the height of the flames" or that they effectively dictate the tempo and intensity of Hamas's attacks. An absolute bombing campaign would have run the risk of upsetting a status quo - where they periodically bomb poo poo and degrade the quality of life in the Gaza strip - they felt they had control over. Same reason they don't completely overrun the West Bank now and instead just periodically destroy Palestinian homes or farms and move settlers in behind them. The world has demonstrated it is quite content to let Israel slowly consume Palestine. e: Like now that they are threatening to do exactly that some the other neighboring powers, like Iran, are threatening war. Maybe they're full of hot air but maybe they're not. TGLT fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 21:51
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Charliegrs posted:If Israel doesn't care whether a building is actually being used by Hamas for military purposes or not then why doesn't just systemically bomb every single building to rubble like the Nazis did in Warsaw Poland? Like how does their targeting work if they are just bombing random buildings? They're probably using the same type of systems that the US used to bomb an allied aid worker https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2021_Kabul_drone_strike
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Oct 16, 2023 21:55
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Charliegrs posted:If Israel doesn't care whether a building is actually being used by Hamas for military purposes or not then why doesn't just systemically bomb every single building to rubble like the Nazis did in Warsaw Poland? Like how does their targeting work if they are just bombing random buildings? Optics are worse but also that would be expensive as gently caress. If you're looking to get civilians to vacate an area so that you can take it over you don't need to bomb every building, you just have to indicate that you might bomb any one of ten buildings and then bomb one of them. How lucky does your family feel? Is staying in your home worth being the 1 in 10?
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Oct 16, 2023 21:56
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Israel obviously doesn’t care about the responses. They have their justification and are seeking to end it. Bibi will be removed if he backs down. Israel doesn’t want to deal with urban warfare but they want to invade and clean up the mess. Smash all the buildings and it’s not urban anymore. Pretty simple. Time will tell if they are going to let Palestinians ‘elect’ their own leader or if they are going to be forcefully moved. Not allowing water or food forces this issue. I bet they’ll blame Egypt.
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Oct 16, 2023 22:02
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It's also entirely possible, even likely, that Israel does not have enough bombs to drop every building to the ground on a whim. Canuck artillery nerd goon Frosted Flake's been posting about this, that Israel supposedly (entirely possible they're lying and have more) stockpiles enough bombs for 28 days of constant unceasing use, and that's at normal bombing rates. They've currently dropped over 6,000 bombs in less than a week, and while a lot of Gaza is now a rubble hellhole, there's still a number of buildings still standing. For consideration: Bakhmut is pretty much a city of skeleton rubble now. Both sides expended thousands of artillery shells per day, for significantly longer than a month. Even then, there's still a number of buildings still standing. It's a fraction of the size of Gaza. It's an issue that the US and armies that are modeled after the US have faced; you can't actually conduct a war entirely from the sky, not against a peer army or a competent guerilla force. Arguably only ever worked against an army recovering from two wars (Iraq) and in intimidating USSR periphery states. As Ukraine has demonstrated, money can only be converted into shells at such a pace, especially in neoliberal countries that have willingly hollowed themselves out. And yeah, there's the issue of a complete societal collapse being disastrous for Israel unless they are ready to say to the world "yeah, we're cool with 2 million people dying, guess you should have stopped us sooner, huh?". Egypt doesn't need as much resources to police its border from 2 million refugees showing up as Israel does (especially evident considering the Hamas attack, using significantly fewer than 2 million people). mannerup posted:it's poor sensationalized journalism that needs better sourcing for its claims I figured as much yeah, but I wanted to see if there was any Israeli/Hebrew Media instances of the clip or its authenticity. At best it's very sloppy, at worst it's fake, and obviously a lot of the more reputable leftist organizations would hop all over this in a heartbeat if it was verifiable. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 22:10
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Halloween Jack posted:I'm just going to hang on to this in case I need to justify literally anything. You're confusing justification with understanding. It's easy to say Hamas and Israel are evil for killing kids, but it's a lot harder to really put yourself in the mindset of a person who would never kill a kid or risk getting a kid killed but ends up dropping a bomb or pulling a trigger or swinging a knife. Other than for DSM psychopaths, dehumanizing people is where that starts. All humans, even those who do terrible things, have intrinsic value and we should try to understand their perspective, if only so we don't accidentally walk down the same road. The post I was responding to (like a few others in the thread) walks too close to the line of dehumanizing Israelis for me.
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Oct 16, 2023 22:11
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I think the problem is that "Israel doesn't have any remorse" is vague to the point of meaninglessness. When we say "Israel has a consulate in Chicago" or "Israel is 8500 square miles", we know what's meant by "Israel" (the state is the only meaning that could have a consulate, the geographic region is the only meaning that could have an area). But states and geographic regions don't experience remorse, people do. Does this mean Israel as some sort of collective national soul, like the Jewish idea of Israel who never dies, is capable of remorse but isn't experiencing it here? That the average Israeli isn't remorseful? That no Israeli is remorseful? That even if the average Israeli is remorseful, a cultural-state apparatus prevents the expression of that remorse? Countries and states shouldn't be personified, they're not people. Talking about whether Israel is remorseful is like talking about whether my bike is happy to help me get to work, it's purely useless because it's obviously impossible. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 22:26
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They're already bombing the absolute poo poo out of Gaza and obliterating entire neighborhoods, saying they must care about civilians because they aren't literally flattening 100% of buildings is pretty loving weak.
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Oct 16, 2023 22:26
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Charliegrs posted:If Israel doesn't care whether a building is actually being used by Hamas for military purposes or not then why doesn't just systemically bomb every single building to rubble like the Nazis did in Warsaw Poland? Like how does their targeting work if they are just bombing random buildings? They're not in a hurry. Literally leveling all of Gaza to the ground is expensive, is likely to draw significant international response, and deprives Israel of the ability to extract political concessions from Hamas and the UN in exchange for allowing Gazans to buy reconstruction supplies at a significant markup. If some people die of exposure or sickness over the next few months, well, that's not going to present foreign reporters with impactful photo opportunities the way a bunch of dead bodies strewn across a seemingly endless expanse of rubble would. There's also the risk that cranking up the collective punishment too high would leave too much of the population feeling like they've got nothing left to lose, which could make for an especially nasty uptick of violence. Mid-Life Crisis posted:Israel obviously doesn’t care about the responses. They have their justification and are seeking to end it. Bibi will be removed if he backs down. One of the factors that makes urban combat so difficult is that heavily bombing the area doesn't really make it that much easier to deal with. It's pretty easy for artillery or airstrikes to make a concrete building unfit for residential, commercial, or industrial use, but it actually takes quite a bit of firepower to actually level the building to the point where soldiers can't hole up in it anymore. And even then, the rubble still makes for better cover than you'll find drat near anywhere else, and provides plenty of material for building improvised fortifications, hiding spots, and so on. If you need to actually take a city and don't have time to wait around for a siege, there's really no alternative to sending in ground troops to fight their way through it building by building, room by bloody room. Of course, Israel does have time to wait around for a siege. They don't really have to send in ground troops at all, at least from the perspective of pure military necessity. They've pretty much sealed up all armed resistance in a small chunk of territory they're not in any real hurry to actually capture and occupy. If anything, they got too complacent about that, but even an occasional raid out beyond the siege doesn't really change the military circumstances...although it does change the political circumstances, which is why Israel is bothering to escalate like this.
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Oct 16, 2023 22:29
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 22:33
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wins32767 posted:You're confusing justification with understanding. It's easy to say Hamas and Israel are evil for killing kids, but it's a lot harder to really put yourself in the mindset of a person who would never kill a kid or risk getting a kid killed but ends up dropping a bomb or pulling a trigger or swinging a knife. Other than for DSM psychopaths, dehumanizing people is where that starts. All humans, even those who do terrible things, have intrinsic value and we should try to understand their perspective, if only so we don't accidentally walk down the same road. The post I was responding to (like a few others in the thread) walks too close to the line of dehumanizing Israelis for me. Do you understand that Israel has been actually dehumanizing Palestinians for decades, and as a result of that, they see Palestinians as less valuable? Also the post you were responding to isn't even talking about Israelis as a people, but rather about Israel as a state. Please don't conflate the two. Civilized Fishbot posted:I think the problem is that "Israel doesn't have any remorse" is vague to the point of meaninglessness. When we say "Israel has a consulate in Chicago" or "Israel is 8500 square miles", we know what's meant by "Israel" (the state is the only meaning that could have a consulate, the geographic region is the only meaning that could have an area). The people in charge of the state, and the people who work for the state, absolutely can feel remorse. They are responsible for the actions of the state. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 22:35
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They've evacuated 100,000 people from the area around Gaza and conducted a mass mobilisation. There are enormous costs to doing that and even if they are going to fight a protracted deliberate campaign they will need to start moving once the mobilisation process is complete (it looks like they're doing refresher training and unit familiarisation right now). Everything they've done, from cutting the water, to demanding an evacuation of North Gaza, to a frantic pace of bombing, indicates an intent to go in and have a fight with Hamas as soon as possible.
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Oct 16, 2023 22:37
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Since at least the 1930s the intent has always been to remove Palestinians from the land.
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Oct 16, 2023 22:45
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wins32767 posted:So they have only knocked on the roofs of buildings before they bomb them for purely PR reasons? Or is it possible that they do care, just not as much as they care about doing what they think will minimize harm to their own citizens? This is a pretty much dehumanizing take on the Israelis involved rather than taking a hard look at their worldview and seeing them as humans doing some terrible stuff because they have some historical reasons to think the alternative is worse. The whole situation is awful and the systems and incentives involved for all the actors point towards violence indefinitely, but that doesn't make them inhuman as you're implying here. as a response to this, this is a real post from the official IDF twitter account in 2018 I don't think I have to add anything? it makes it pretty obvious what the position of the IDF is and has been towards palestinian civilians, including children and clearly disabled and unarmed noncombatants: as hostiles first, threats second, human shields third, human beings somewhere after that https://twitter.com/IDF/status/996427205944184832 
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Oct 16, 2023 22:47
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Is there evidence of Hamas trying to stop Gazans from evacuating? I’m seeing that all over my feeds but haven’t see proof. Feels like a way to excuse IDF civilian casualties.
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Oct 16, 2023 22:50
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negativeneil posted:Is there evidence of Hamas trying to stop Gazans from evacuating? I’m seeing that all over my feeds but haven’t see proof. Feels like a way to excuse IDF civilian casualties. There's been stuff from the IDF like this, which should be scrutinized because its from the IDF: https://twitter.com/idfonline/status/1713241813220298755 https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1713267317851705630 and claims such as this. a car explodes but there's no gore, so I won't NMS it: https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1713241560752533662?s=20 https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1713241566926557520?s=20
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Oct 16, 2023 23:10
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CuddleCryptid posted:Call me a bleeding heart but I wouldn't call it an unreasonable demand for a military to flatten occupied buildings off more than a guess.
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Oct 16, 2023 23:16
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https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2023/10/15/ehud-barak-blames-binyamin-netanyahu-for-the-greatest-failure-in-israels-historyquote:FEW ISRAELIS have anything close to Ehud Barak’s experience of operating in Gaza. In 2000 he was prime minister and defence minister when the second intifada, or Palestinian uprising, erupted in Gaza and the occupied West Bank. Before that he was the commander of the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) when Israel carried out its first major pullback from the cities in the Gaza Strip as part of the first Oslo Accords signed in 1993. it's pretty remarkable that nobody trusts Netanyahu right now, not even the Israeli people.
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Oct 16, 2023 23:22
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I'm not sure if this directly counts as Isreal/Palestine, but theres been a supposed terrorist incident in the Belgium v Sweden football game, involving 3 shot swedish citizens, following the attack on the French teacher a few days ago. Suggests that its going to leak to a new sudden peak of Islamist terrorists attacks in the west.
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Oct 16, 2023 23:25
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Weasling Weasel posted:I'm not sure if this directly counts as Isreal/Palestine, but theres been a supposed terrorist incident in the Belgium v Sweden football game, involving 3 shot swedish citizens, following the attack on the French teacher a few days ago. Suggests that its going to leak to a new sudden peak of Islamist terrorists attacks in the west. There was a Palestinian child stabbed to death in the US, does this suggest a peak of any sort of terrorism or is it just a sparkling hate crime when a non-muslim does it?
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Oct 16, 2023 23:28
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Everyone is a nationalist now (they can even be nationalists for countries other than their own). That's nothing new! George Orwell, Notes on Nationalism posted:The intensity with which they are held does not prevent nationalist loyalties from being transferable. To begin with, as I have pointed out already, they can be and often are fastened upon some foreign country. One quite commonly finds that great national leaders, or the founders of nationalist movements, do not even belong to the country they have glorified. Sometimes they are outright foreigners, or more often they come from peripheral areas where nationality is doubtful. Examples are Stalin, Hitler, Napoleon, de Valera, Disraeli, Poincaré, Beaverbrook. The Pan-German movement was in part the creation of an Englishman, Houston Chamberlain. For the past fifty or a hundred years, transferred nationalism has been a common phenomenon among literary intellectuals. With Lafcadio Hearne the transference was to Japan, with Carlyle and many others of his time to Germany, and in our own age it is usually to Russia. But the peculiarly interesting fact is that re-transference is also possible. A country or other unit which has been worshipped for years may suddenly become detestable, and some other object of affection may take its place with almost no interval. In the first version of H. G. Wells’s Outline of History, and others of his writings about that time, one finds the United States praised almost as extravagantly as Russia is praised by Communists today: yet within a few years this uncritical admiration had turned into hostility. The bigoted Communist who changes in a space of weeks, or even of days, into an equally bigoted Trotskyist is a common spectacle. In continental Europe Fascist movements were largely recruited from among Communists, and the opposite process may well happen within the next few years. What remains constant in the nationalist is his own state of mind: the object of his feelings is changeable, and may be imaginary.
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Oct 16, 2023 23:33
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Typo posted:most ppl simply don't know nor care: American here, and I'm surprised that as many as 45% answered a "A fair amount" or higher. From my purely American (not Jewish or religious) point of view, the Israel / Palestine problem has been going on for all of my lifetime and will most likely continue after my grandchildren die of old age. After Oct 7th, the Hamas attack set into motion a course of events that were 100% predictable and expected. I don't know the exact number, but we probably killed 100,000+ innocent bystanders in Iraq when we attacked the wrong country after 9/11 and many Americans still think we did the right thing. Do we feel bad for all those children that died over the last week and the thousands more that will die in the upcoming weeks? Yes we do but there isn't anything that can be done about it now. Hamas got the reaction from Israel that it wanted, and now Israel feels compelled to destroy Gaza regardless of the consequences. Don't expect so much of Americans, our country is run by old men who refuse to retire, our House of Representatives is completely paralyzed, and we can't even get rid of daylight savings time. It's no surprise that the conflict doesn't matter to most of us as it's just another tragic, hopeless day in the middle-east .
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Oct 16, 2023 23:39
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Lord Lambeth posted:https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2023/10/15/ehud-barak-blames-binyamin-netanyahu-for-the-greatest-failure-in-israels-history The only people who do right now are deranged nationalists who appreciate Likud as the best stepping-stone they can get so far on the path to the government of absolute exterminationist purifiers they desperately want Israel to be and they're invested in it enough that they're weirdly ideologically blind to the part where Netenyahu and Likud in general are directly responsible for this mess. It's a pretty uncomfortably large selection of people in the country but ... not nearly enough right now to save bibi
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Oct 16, 2023 23:39
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Adenoid Dan posted:There was a Palestinian child stabbed to death in the US, does this suggest a peak of any sort of terrorism or is it just a sparkling hate crime when a non-muslim does it? Not every hate crime is terrorism, the difference is whether it's meant to scandalize/terrify the public or just satisfy the violent psychosis/paranoia of the assailant. As a result of this war we are going to see more hate crimes, including more terrorism, particularly involving Muslim and Jewish victims. It was unfair of you to assume that the poster is bigoted against Muslims just because they didn't simultaneously reference a horrible murder that they had no reason to know had happened. That murder took place near me, and very much near some of my family, and it's very loving scary. Two people in my family who Stand Strong With The IDF are now asking how they can support that poor family and scared community.
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Oct 16, 2023 23:41
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