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Zedd posted:Also apparently, allegedly it was supposed to be the start of a Dukat-Kira Romance thing. Nana Visitor refused the gently caress out of it and this is what we got instead. I thought the Dukat/Kira romance idea was around Season 4, when they were off having adventures together and Dukat stole a Klingon Bird of Prey.
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Oct 16, 2023 14:09
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Taear posted:People have complained about it before but "Wrongs Darker Than Death Or Night" is a really perfect example of the writers of DS9 just coming up with a concept for an episode and COMPLETELY ignoring what it means for any past episodes.
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Oct 16, 2023 14:13
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Zaroff posted:I thought the Dukat/Kira romance idea was around Season 4, when they were off having adventures together and Dukat stole a Klingon Bird of Prey. Dukat calling her in the middle of the night to say he banged her mom is probably romantic to him. FlamingLiberal posted:See to me, it’s 100% in character for Dukat to do something like that
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Oct 16, 2023 14:20
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FlamingLiberal posted:See to me, it’s 100% in character for Dukat to do something like that It's in character for him to say he shagged her mum, but a seven year thing? That just seems so much to hide until then, you know? There's been loads of moments he would have wanted to say about it and really really gently caress her off Zedd posted:Also apparently, allegedly it was supposed to be the start of a Dukat-Kira Romance thing. Nana Visitor refused the gently caress out of it and this is what we got instead. In the documentary Behr says he doesn't remember that all, but Visitor seems convinced it was on the cards. But like Zaroff says it was raised earlier and it seems like it'd make more sense earlier (I mean it's still bad but more sense than in series 6). This episode would have fit better in like...series 3 maybe
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Oct 16, 2023 14:21
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Taear posted:And to just end with "and she died in a cardassian hospital 7 years later". Of what? She'd be like 30! I mean, oppression and colonization tend to affect health and health care significantly.
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Oct 16, 2023 14:46
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disaster pastor posted:I mean, oppression and colonization tend to affect health and health care significantly. did you even watch the episode before posting that she's now a collaborator with all the food and poo poo she could want, so if ANYONE should be randomly dying it's not her
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Oct 16, 2023 16:07
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Collaborators randomly die all the time, falling out of windows, hanging themselves, setting themselves on fire, falling on knives and bullets, etc
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Oct 16, 2023 16:14
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exploding alot too, these things just happen
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Oct 16, 2023 16:17
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Taear posted:did you even watch the episode before posting that Yeah, I've watched the episode. Collaborators are still less-than and other-than. They don't get top-quality food and care. They get better than their compatriots, but they're replaceable and the quality they do get reflects that.
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Oct 16, 2023 17:18
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zoux posted:Collaborators randomly die all the time, falling out of windows, hanging themselves, setting themselves on fire, falling on knives and bullets, etc ye but that's not how she died disaster pastor posted:Yeah, I've watched the episode. Collaborators are still less-than and other-than. They don't get top-quality food and care. They get better than their compatriots, but they're replaceable and the quality they do get reflects that. They specifically say she's getting the best (because of who she is with) What I'm saying is I want a bit more, it seems very "We're not sure what to do with the idea of her being alive so uh, she just died"
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Oct 16, 2023 17:30
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Maybe she literally died on the way back to her home planet
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Oct 16, 2023 18:38
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Thine Own Self is another one of those ones where the A/B plots couldn't be more separated, but in this case, both sides of the story were compelling enough. Data's sad little memory loss adventure on the pre-industrial planet, him unknowingly going about irradiating everybody, before saving the day with science, liked it a lot. Data taken seriously is usually far more interesting than Data the funny-ha-ha android chum who dresses up like Sherlock and won't ever end sentences unless he's told to stop. Meanwhile, Troi's attempt to become a commander is also nice, though I do question her managing to get it all done within the time frame of the episode, it's a bit hasty and weird. But we do get that Kobayashi Maru-esque scene where she works out that she has to order holo-Geordi to his death, which is HARDCORE. I thought it was fine overall, especially for something where the two story strands are THAT disconnected. Masks. Am I being dumb or was that just a load of gibberish? Some wild ideas, the ship transformation thing is creepy in theory. In execution, a bit rubbish. All I was really thinking for much of it was "God, I'm sick and tired of hearing Spiner doing that nasally voice." Just... Uh. Yeah, at a loss. Bad, I guess? And for all the weirdness, quite boring too?
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Oct 17, 2023 00:37
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Masks is an episode of television.
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Oct 17, 2023 00:39
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I don't mind Masks, it's TOS as gently caress. I wouldn't say it's a great episode, but I don't think of it as a series low point like most seem to. I think I'm the only one that feels that way though.
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Oct 17, 2023 00:43
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Masks is fine and it allows Spiner to do more than just be Data.
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Oct 17, 2023 00:53
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Which would be great if there weren't many, many episodes where he gets to do that.
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Oct 17, 2023 00:54
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I like Masks, but I can definitely see why people hate it.
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Oct 17, 2023 00:57
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Nah, I agree - I like Masks for the sheer weird ballsiness of demonstrating how weird and alien other cultures, even spacefaring technological cultures, might be. Is it as good an example of that as, say, Darmok? Hell no, but what is? As a technical achievement in terms of writing, acting, etc it's kinda meh. But they were out of their comfort zone and I'm willing to cut them a lot of slack for it.
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Oct 17, 2023 00:58
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The Enterprise-D stopped encountering outside-context problems in like season 3 so it's nice they did one more with Masks even if it is kinda stupid
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Oct 17, 2023 01:03
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I like Masks because it's a story where Picard's nerdy archaeology background saves the day, and not in a dumb way like in Gambit.
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Oct 17, 2023 01:18
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“Masks” is missing an end reveal. I think it gets bogged down with theatrics in the build up and runs out of time to tie it together. It succeeds in being cosmic and weird but not in coming down to earth. Like, Picard figured out they were reenacting the story of a myth, okay. cool. So…why did the alien space station do that? It feels like a more aggressive version of the probe from “Inner Light”, but with those guys, you end up with a strong sense of why they would create a probe that would mind gently caress you. This thing opens a dimensional portal to myth, okay, but what for? It ends up just being a “huh, glad we got the gods out of Data” rather than telling us anything about the guys the episode was about.
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Oct 17, 2023 01:19
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skasion posted:“Masks” is missing an end reveal. I think it gets bogged down with theatrics in the build up and runs out of time to tie it together. It succeeds in being cosmic and weird but not in coming down to earth. Like, Picard figured out they were reenacting the story of a myth, okay. cool. So…why did the alien space station do that? It feels like a more aggressive version of the probe from “Inner Light”, but with those guys, you end up with a strong sense of why they would create a probe that would mind gently caress you. This thing opens a dimensional portal to myth, okay, but what for? It ends up just being a “huh, glad we got the gods out of Data” rather than telling us anything about the guys the episode was about. Wasn't it because the Enterprise was poking at it?
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Oct 17, 2023 01:20
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I've been making my way through Voyager, I'm halfway through the second season, and it's time. Time to watch Threshold. e: HIS TONGUE 
Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Oct 17, 2023 |
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Oct 17, 2023 01:22
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Wasn't it because the Enterprise was poking at it? Sure, that’s the immediate cause, but why is this even an outcome in the first place? What possible purpose could it serve to respond to a sensor scan with a full-contact sun-moon myth? There’s a strong disjoint between the primal, symbolic elements that the alien station creates and the immense technological power implicit in the existence of the station itself. Which I think is cool and only adds to the mystery, and the characters even mention this in the episode, but then they never figure it out!
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Oct 17, 2023 01:39
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skasion posted:Sure, that’s the immediate cause, but why is this even an outcome in the first place? What possible purpose could it serve to respond to a sensor scan with a full-contact sun-moon myth? There’s a strong disjoint between the primal, symbolic elements that the alien station creates and the immense technological power implicit in the existence of the station itself. Which I think is cool and only adds to the mystery, and the characters even mention this in the episode, but then they never figure it out! Some mysteries just don't get solved, or don't get solved on the spot by the first people to encounter it. Maybe the Federation's Fast Response Anthropology Team aboard the USS Margaret Mead mobilized within hours of Picard sending in his report, maybe somebody analyzed the logs and wrote their Ph.D thesis on it fifteen years later, who knows?
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Oct 17, 2023 02:28
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Okay, so having finally seen Threshold: it's not as good as Sub Rosa. Sub Rosa starts with a funeral at a spooky Scottish graveyard, it's very clear what kind of episode it's going to be from the beginning. The fun thing there is just how crazy it goes beyond that. Threshold, in contrast, has a very unassuming start with a bunch of technobabble. The central idea of the first act, achieving Warp 10 as some kind of apotheosis through technology, is actually kinda cool and could be part of a much better episode. Not just a physical but a mystical threshold, crossing a barrier into a new kind of existence. I get the appeal for Braga in writing this; it's all very Star Trek, being so advanced that you physically become something else. And I equally get the appeal of doing an ironic twist, where instead of this path ending as your typical Trek enlightened energy being, it actually results in turning into something gross and primitive. It just...didn't work out that way. Then Tom Paris gets a bunch of scabs and barfs out his tongue, and those makeup effects definitely earned their Emmy. The episode just kind of takes off from there, making up for a relatively sedate first act by getting all its crazy out there as fast as possible. The reveal of Janeway and Paris in full salamander form with their babies is genuinely funny and just the perfect capper to the whole insane journey. The characters (and I imagine, the actors) all have this attitude of "Let's never talk about any of this again." And then we get a denouement where Paris is trying to learn some kind of character lesson, and what the hell is this? Don't be trying to make any kind of serious point out of all of this, we crossed that line a long time ago. You just left a planet of evolved human salamander babies in the Delta Quadrant! This is not the time or place to pretend that this was an episode about character development or indeed, any real point. 
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Oct 17, 2023 02:31
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Meld is as good as Threshold is bad. Brad Dourif and Tim Russ both absolutely kill it (uh, so to speak). What are some other really big jumps in quality (in either direction) between consecutive episodes? Sub Rosa -> Lower Decks was talked about earlier, and DS9 has Meridian -> Defiant.
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Oct 17, 2023 03:34
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skasion posted:“Masks” is missing an end reveal. I think it gets bogged down with theatrics in the build up and runs out of time to tie it together. It succeeds in being cosmic and weird but not in coming down to earth. Like, Picard figured out they were reenacting the story of a myth, okay. cool. So…why did the alien space station do that? It feels like a more aggressive version of the probe from “Inner Light”, but with those guys, you end up with a strong sense of why they would create a probe that would mind gently caress you. This thing opens a dimensional portal to myth, okay, but what for? It ends up just being a “huh, glad we got the gods out of Data” rather than telling us anything about the guys the episode was about. But it gave us https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upSm_V2OxUc
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Oct 17, 2023 03:45
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Thine Own Self and Masks are a great pairing - one episode features Data at his most Data-esque, and the other is the Brent Spiner Overacting Power Hour. Also, those scenes where the villagers are unknowingly handling radioactive material always send chills up my spine.
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Oct 17, 2023 04:09
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I think threshold could be made into a serviceable episode if instead of the nonsensical warp 10 stuff they just made it the transwarp threshold (a phrase they actually say later in the series) and leaned into the body horror even more while ditching the references to evolution and just making it a mutation from whatever Tom got exposed to. Even just changing the dialog would have made it less ridiculous.
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Oct 17, 2023 04:59
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Watching TNG from the start to introduce it to a friend. Man, season one is rough. There's some fun idiosyncracies, like Picard being an rear end in a top hat and Riker being cocky, but the line delivery...
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Oct 17, 2023 07:43
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Lord Hydronium posted:Meld is as good as Threshold is bad. Brad Dourif and Tim Russ both absolutely kill it (uh, so to speak). Trials and Tribble-ations -> Let He Who Is Without Sin.
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Oct 17, 2023 07:50
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Aquiel -> Face of the Enemy -> Tapestry has a rather significant ramp in quality over three episodes. I remain harsher on Voyager than many here, but I did like "Blink of an Eye" quite a lot, and other episodes. But coming right after "Fair Haven"just highlights the drastic unevenness of the series.
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Oct 17, 2023 08:05
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I can't remember if it was this thread or the modern thread discussing this, but planetary shields are definitely a thing in the TOS era. They're not indestructible, but often what it would take to get through them would result in the people behind them being destroyed.
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Oct 17, 2023 09:41
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cenotaph posted:I think threshold could be made into a serviceable episode if instead of the nonsensical warp 10 stuff they just made it the transwarp threshold (a phrase they actually say later in the series) and leaned into the body horror even more while ditching the references to evolution and just making it a mutation from whatever Tom got exposed to. Even just changing the dialog would have made it less ridiculous. Yeah, just do a find-replace on "evolution" to something like "accelerating mutation" and it gets like 90% less absurd right there.
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Oct 17, 2023 10:17
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The Mark of Gideon is one of the more absurd episodes of TOS. I cannot believe the resolution of the episode was "Kirk aids in a genocide" but like a full quarter of episodes end that way so it's not too strange, but what it's especially weird for is that the Gideons asked for the genocide and refuse to do accept any other solution to the problem, such as sending chunks of their population to other planets. Truly bizarre and doesn't make any sense in the Star Trek universe.
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Oct 17, 2023 10:21
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Atlas Hugged posted:The Mark of Gideon is one of the more absurd episodes of TOS. I cannot believe the resolution of the episode was "Kirk aids in a genocide" but like a full quarter of episodes end that way so it's not too strange, but what it's especially weird for is that the Gideons asked for the genocide and refuse to do accept any other solution to the problem, such as sending chunks of their population to other planets. Is that the one where say 'we'd rather genocide than have to wear a condom'.
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Oct 17, 2023 10:33
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MikeJF posted:Is that the one where say 'we'd rather genocide than have to wear a condom'. Yes. And they do (the genocide).
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Oct 17, 2023 10:39
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It feels like they had an idea for an episode about Kirk being trapped on a deserted Enterprise, and they had an idea for an episode about an overpopulated planet, and they sort of awkwardly tied them together.
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Oct 17, 2023 11:14
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It's funny reading about the episode "my way" and how mad Ira was that the fans didn't like it I don't give a poo poo about 1960s las vegas, why do you think the people watching this show care about that? He seems to think that people were mad specifically because the episode was romantic but man I've no issue with that I just don't wanna sit and listen to someone sing an entire frank sinatra song thanks
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Oct 17, 2023 11:38
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