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Nelson Mandingo posted:Double post because this is a bit different topic. I've never played with, or played an alchemist so I'm completely in the dark here. The best thing you can do for a bomber alchemist is make sure that there is regularly an enemy with an elemental weakness in a fight so the bomber can ping that and do decent damage even on a miss.
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Oct 16, 2023 18:40
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Kitfox88 posted:This is why at level 9 my Rogue in my group's Kingmaker campaign will have a 45 foot movespeed, so I can outrun all precision attack immune horses. Smart.  Nelson Mandingo posted:The math has been done and their damage is fine. When they can accomplish sneak attacks. They don't have to be damage kings and queens. That isn't what I'm saying either. It's simply not fun or good design to have core playstyle of your class combat loop not available more consistently than others. Especially when you're not particularly unbalanced otherwise. Their damage isn't just fine, it's exceptional. During the OGL kerfuffle some DnD guys started trying out class builds for pathfinder. The "d4: D&D Deep Dive" guy did 6 before going back to DnD exclusively. His gimmick is that he tries to build for the highest possible DPR. (He had to make a lot of assumptions, only used the core rule book, and tested them at level 5 and 10.) This didn't work out great for him because the monk, magus, priest, and ranger were neck and neck. As fully optimised as he could make them they were all equally good. His fighter "wreckingball" build was noticeably better. And his thief rogue came out 7-8% better than the fighter. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15YWsrBtfZ0jtocKPY1AylPgcvHjGUTzsk51PSYf74Ss/edit#gid=0 Rogues are not weak among martials. If they pull off precision damage every time they are one of the best DPR wise. Which of course is a silly measure in pathfinder since the team synergy is more important than any one character's DPR, but here we are. Are they OP? No, because they only get those numbers when everything goes right for them. They have to work at it and sometimes they don't get precision and their damage is mediocre rather than exceptional. Nelson Mandingo posted:Literally nobody is saying this. Going "outside" is necessary because DPR isn't the whole class. When discussing how classes are balanced against each other the whole class matters. Bards can nearly bend other's reality with their diplomacy and deception checks. A powerful ability. But they can't do that and also be a blaster getting MVP damage every round. If there was no precision immunity and rogues were able to count on that every single combat and be one of the top damage dealers, would it be fair that fighters only get half as many proficiencies? That almost everyone gets half as many proficiencies? What are rogues giving up for that jack-of-all-trades boon?
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Oct 16, 2023 18:53
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So, what about precision rangers?
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Oct 16, 2023 18:57
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Dick Burglar posted:So, what about precision rangers? or swashbucklers. Are the rogues OP if you don't fight precision immune enemies? Is the Bard really giving up anything significant for being arguably the best caster in the game? Does the Thaumaturge give up anything for being all-around super good? Andrast fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 19:08
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Facebook Aunt posted:
this is ignoring the problems with precision immunity as it turns out in actual play, though. people have repeatedly made two points: -the swing in competence between getting sneak and a sneak-immune target is unreasonably huge, given rogues have to use weaker weapons and take a hit on strength to do their thing. spellcasters who face a target immune to their primary element aren't remotely as handicapped because of the inherent breadth of spells, and almost nothing has a special ability that takes away a fighter's proficiency advantage. it's weird that there's one class that faces such a drastic swing in competence against entire thematic types of enemy. -because precision immunity is tied to enemy type in this way, it means that there are entire adventure paths that make rogues useless in combat, even when those same adventure paths might encourage characters to be rogues because of reliance on traps and various skill checks. this makes 'being the rogue' more of a tax than anything; you have to lug around someone who is a less effective character for many encounters, just so you aren't punished severely in other types of encounter. this is simply not a good way to construct a game. immunities are part of how encounter variety is constructed in PF2, but precision immunity is both inordinately powerful and inordinately distributed Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 19:11
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Rogues aren't top damage dealers even when they can make use of precision damage. They might be comparable to a Thaumaturge, but trying to argue they bring more utility than a Thaumaturge is going to just get a hearty laugh from me.
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Oct 16, 2023 19:11
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Mister Olympus posted:immunities are part of how encounter variety is constructed in PF2, but precision immunity is both inordinately powerful and inordinately distributed Yeah, I have run entire campaigns without ever putting in a precision immune enemy. Conversely I have also ran large adventures where huge portions of enemies would have been precision immune without ever intending to make it that way, it was just how the flavor for the dungeons ended up working. If I didn't end up waiving the precision immunity in my last few dungeons the swashbuckler player in the game would have been miserable. Andrast fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 19:20
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the_steve posted:Rogues are burst attackers. Their whole combat deal is "Get into position, do big hit with sneak attack, and then reposition before they get punched in the face." Uh, I'm going to have to call "citation needed" on this. Every martial class other than Champion and Monk have the same scaling of armor proficiency, so they should all have the same AC short of Raise a Shield or heavy armor trading 5 ft of Speed for +1 AC. The only significant difference in baseline stats beyond that are Rogues having lower class HP per level at 8, but that's only worth a few points of Con mod or Toughness. Barbarian rage does give you a buffer of temp HP, but it also lowers your armor class which will be a lot more impactful when you start taking huge crits more often. Barbarians also gets some light damage resistance at 9th, but it's usually very specific in type anyway. Unlike 5e where Rogues get their Sneak Attack bonus only once per turn, PF2 Rogues get Sneak Attack on every single hit against a flat-footed target. When you look at the subclass features you get from the Scoundrel or Mastermind rackets that make a target flat-footed for an entire round on top of Sneak Attack often requiring a weapon to be agile anyway, you're clearly mechanically encouraged to stab-stab-stab as much as you can against a flat-footed target for as long as the condition lasts. Facebook Aunt posted:Rogue DPR I like the d4 guy's stuff, but it was noticeable how new he was to PF2 as he often neglected to consider even weapon runes. I've done a ton of white-room DPR math myself and have a big fancy spreadsheet for it in the interest of both personal fun and curiosity, and while a Rogue with perma-flanking will dish out some considerable damage compared to the average of martial classes in general it's definitely still beat out by the right Fighter. The mistake is going for a big two-handed weapon, because while that's better for beefy Attacks of Opportunity or for a Whirlwind Strike a Fighter with Double Slice, Agile Grace, and Two-Weapon Flurry will absolutely shred through a single target like crazy when they're attacking at +2/+2/-1/-4 in a round compared to a Rogue's +0/-4/-8. Especially when you consider that a Fighter can pick up 1d6 Sneak Attack damage from an archetype anyway, while a Rogue can't get the Fighter's legendary weapon proficiency or Agile Grace (and Double Slice doesn't interact well with Sneak Attack). Vanguard Warden fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 19:29
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I don't think we actually disagree much here? Precision immunity is fine as a sometimes food. Everything shouldn't be immune. How about a feat where if you know a spell, you can change precision damage to that damage type? Using your dagger to stab 'em in the kidneys with lightning. Some classes have an easier time than others, but most people should be able to pick up a cantrip from their ancestry or something.
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Oct 16, 2023 19:31
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Facebook Aunt posted:Smart. This is a fantastic post and I appreciate it, because numbers are always fun to see- even in opposition. I think it's great to see that Rogues can be exceptional damage dealers. ...However. I don't feel this defeats my argument, that immunity to precision damage is more unfairly aimed at not just Rogues, but the other precision users who are simply not overpowered. And to quickly leave the scope of the argument, this document shows the great potential damage of Warpriests. But with their lower accuracies, the chance of back to back consistently incredible damage is much more remote. You can't simply roll better to overcome damage immunities. You mentioned yourself that these tests are all best case scenarios and bleeding gills optimization. I hark back to my previous posts where I point out, that's not a reasonable circumstance. In sticking with the "It should be in the bounds of precision damage", not every Rogue is going to be a Thief. There is going to be Scoundrels and Masterminds....and probably not Arcane Tricksters. Who each have their own strengths and weaknesses, but they're probably not going to see the consistent damage listed here. We shouldn't expect everyone to have Free Archetype to shore up horizontal progression. (Though it should be baseline frankly.) Obviously as a game designer, you have to take the best possible build possible when designing counters towards it. That seems like there is an obvious design flaw somewhere if the potential of absolute perfect rolls and optimization can merely be a few percentage points better than alternatives leads to such prevalent counters that can consistently show up more often than others that overly punishes not being optimal. I -highly- suspect a campaign with no precision immunities isn't going to somehow turn Rogues into gamebreakers. Because after all they have to reasonably set up through actions, rolls, or use teamwork to set up sneak attacks. There is already plenty of balancing factors at play that a GM can find ways to disrupt. Facebook Aunt posted:If there was no precision immunity and rogues were able to count on that every single combat and be one of the top damage dealers, would it be fair that fighters only get half as many proficiencies? That almost everyone gets half as many proficiencies? What are rogues giving up for that jack-of-all-trades boon? No, because how a fighter invests itself will leave a chink in the armor somewhere else. IE: My fighter in one of my games is Sword and Board and has feats around that. I just got done with an encounter with flying enemies where I struggled to be effective and managed one single hit in that wasn't a attack of opportunity, even with a shortbow available. That is a natural and fluid weakness based on my choices in opposition with the situation. A wizard hitting a fire immune enemy simply has to use a different spell, and not choosing a different damage type comes with that drawback. Rogues have no such choice- they must reasonably expect to use sneak attack to deal damage. That's a weakness that begins at character creation. With levels and magic items I can close but not eliminate the gap on that. But that's also part of the game. Rogues closing the gap on that has to be at level 18 which the vast majority of campaigns will never achieve. quote:Precision immunity is fine as a sometimes food. Everything shouldn't be immune.  I just don't like seeing like "Back to back encounters with precision immune". Or a boss that has no reasonable expectation of being precision immune having it other than just being awesome. I'm more a fan of thematic and appropriate stuff. Fire elemental not giving a poo poo about your fireball.quote:Yeah occasional hard counters are cool and interesting to have. It just shouldn't be used as a class balancing tool because it's way too swingy for that, feels really bad when used often and is extremely campaign dependent. 
Nelson Mandingo fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 20:00
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I feel like the better way to address it is to rethink the monsters that get immunity, see which of them need full immunity instead of resistance, and which should just ditch it entirely. Extra effort than trying to patch the classes, but simpler to make sure nothing unexpected happens in the process. And yeah, I know it's not great to say "let the DMs patch it".
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Oct 16, 2023 20:12
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Yeah occasional hard counters are cool and interesting to have. It just shouldn't be used as a class balancing tool because it's way too swingy for that, feels really bad when used often and is extremely campaign dependent.
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Oct 16, 2023 20:15
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Does anyone that runs PF2e on Foundry know if there's a quick way to configure Merchant sheets with items? Like set it to "consumables up to x level, common only" and have it populate?
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Oct 16, 2023 21:06
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Mister Olympus posted:almost nothing has a special ability that takes away a fighter's proficiency advantage. Immunity to critical hits essentially does exactly this to the fighter.
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Oct 16, 2023 23:09
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Chevy Slyme posted:Immunity to critical hits essentially does exactly this to the fighter. this is true, but where is the ooze themed adventure path is my point hell even in a hypothetical Ooze Game the fighter would lose their crit advantage but not their cool maneuvers, and the rogue would still lose precision and be left with their somewhat more questionable class feat list. whereas oozes used as intended--just a sometimes food--stacked up on a ghost themed adventure path (which describes abomination vaults very well) leaves the rogue out of luck for a LOT of encounters, and the fighter for only a few. Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 23:13
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Mister Olympus posted:this is true, but where is the ooze themed adventure path is my point The Slithering?
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Oct 16, 2023 23:29
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browsers castle posted:The Slithering? To be fair, that's one adventure and not a whole AP.
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Oct 16, 2023 23:36
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I'm finally getting the chance to play in a game and I'm debating on what character I want to create, for the Season of Ghosts AP. It seems like everyone else is playing some sort of martial. So I'll probably fill in the support/caster role. Maybe some soft of Nagaji Druid concept.
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Oct 17, 2023 00:35
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Dexo posted:I'm finally getting the chance to play in a game and I'm debating on what character I want to create, for the Season of Ghosts AP. If everyone is playing a martial, a warrior bard will provide incredible value in giving everyone an out-of-turn swing
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Oct 17, 2023 00:45
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Chevy Slyme posted:Immunity to critical hits essentially does exactly this to the fighter. I agree with you in practice, fighters keep up with more crits and less misses. But also you could have a fight with something critical immune and still expect to do reasonable damage. You simply could fail to ever critical strike it and never know it was crit immune. You're 10-15% less likely to miss as well, which is consistent damage. So with most martial weapons you're going to not be useless. Just your damage potential is lowered in the fight. Also how many critical immune enemies are there really? A rogue with a knife weapon in a fight with something precision immune is fundamentally and completely poo poo out of luck when the majority of their damage comes from sneak attack. The main source of their damage is 1/2/3d4. They're gonna be doing scratch damage and there is nothing they can do to change that besides swapping to another weapon.
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Oct 17, 2023 01:06
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Mister Olympus posted:If everyone is playing a martial, a warrior bard will provide incredible value in giving everyone an out-of-turn swing hmm, not a bad idea, As I'm messing around with the Warrior Bard. Can do some real fun poo poo. But was thinking maybe more healing capable. I guess Soothe is alright
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Oct 17, 2023 01:29
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Dexo posted:I'm finally getting the chance to play in a game and I'm debating on what character I want to create, for the Season of Ghosts AP. I'm applying to a PbP Season of Ghosts game with seemingly the opposite issue - the characters who have been accepted so far have all been casters, and the GM says he's looking for a "frontline" character for one of the remaining slots. So I submitted a Nagaji Fighter. (I'd previously submitted a Leshy Wood Kineticist, which is probably a bit redundant in a game that already has a Warpriest Cleric, a Phoenix Bloodline Sorcerer, and a Druid.)
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Oct 17, 2023 01:53
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Nelson Mandingo posted:A rogue with a knife weapon in a fight with something precision immune is fundamentally and completely poo poo out of luck when the majority of their damage comes from sneak attack. The main source of their damage is 1/2/3d4. They're gonna be doing scratch damage and there is nothing they can do to change that besides swapping to another weapon. That's the cost of using a knife, though? Like, the comparison is a fighter with a spear (low base dice, thrown) fighting something crit immune. (Incidentally, the number of things precision-immune is - at least one point - roughly 7%, though it's heavily slanted towards undead due to incorporeal and aberrations due to oozes. The latter is also crit immune.) There's a reason the rogue gets access to rapier/shortsword/shortbow, and to all martial weapons in the remaster.
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Oct 17, 2023 03:24
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I know 1 or 2 people mentioned doing Kingmaker at some point recently- has anyone looked at the Pathfinder 2e and Kingmaker modules for roll20? I think there are some? I know they just released one for Foundry, but I think the people I'd recruit for a game mostly use roll20 now and I don't necessarily want to ask them to change.
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Oct 17, 2023 04:24
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You should ask them to change, imo. The only person who has to make a real effort is the gm. They're literally just connecting to a website.
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Oct 17, 2023 05:48
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Mister Olympus posted:nothing has a special ability that takes away a fighter's proficiency advantage.'
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Oct 17, 2023 12:28
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Dexo posted:hmm, not a bad idea, As I'm messing around with the Warrior Bard. Can do some real fun poo poo. But was thinking maybe more healing capable. I guess Soothe is alright
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Oct 17, 2023 12:56
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:I know 1 or 2 people mentioned doing Kingmaker at some point recently- has anyone looked at the Pathfinder 2e and Kingmaker modules for roll20? I think there are some? My group has been running Kingmaker on roll20 and its been...fine? No flashy effects or anything you get with foundry, but all the maps work well. Our GM has had a couple nitpicks about some of the NPCs missing statblocks but that's been it so far.
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Oct 17, 2023 13:19
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:I know 1 or 2 people mentioned doing Kingmaker at some point recently- has anyone looked at the Pathfinder 2e and Kingmaker modules for roll20? I think there are some? You should ask them to change. The Roll20 PF2E experience is Very Bad.
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Oct 17, 2023 13:20
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Dexo posted:hmm, not a bad idea, As I'm messing around with the Warrior Bard. Can do some real fun poo poo. But was thinking maybe more healing capable. I guess Soothe is alright Soothe is perfectly adequate for in combat healing. For out of combat healing, someone doing All The Medicine Feats will always be king, and it can be anyone in the party.
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Oct 17, 2023 13:21
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Chevy Slyme posted:You should ask them to change. The Roll20 PF2E experience is Very Bad. Yeah, I'm in a PF2e table on both and holy hell R20 PF2e is *so bad* in comparison.
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Oct 17, 2023 13:48
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Just about the only system that I've had a positive experience with its integration in roll20 has been Call of Cthulhu. Tried Path2e with friends in Roll20 and we had to custom code most spells to get them to work right.
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Oct 17, 2023 14:13
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5e is fine for R20, but that's like because 5e's sheets get the majority of the focus. My general recommendation, is the point where you have to start paying for R20 to get access to features, you'd be better off(unless you really really hate opening ports on your PC) buying a single copy of Foundry and using that.
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Oct 17, 2023 15:48
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I am playing a PF2E game on roll20 and it's workable but obviously vastly inferior to Foundry. Foundry does seem to have a higher barrier to entry and ultimately the DM wanted to play on Roll20 so that's what we went with, but I am planning on running a PF2E game in the future once this campaign is over and I'm hoping to switch to Foundry then (hopefully with this same group, but we'll see how it goes, we just finished a multi-year long 5E campaign so I know they're mostly solid people).
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Oct 17, 2023 15:53
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Chevy Slyme posted:Soothe is perfectly adequate for in combat healing. For out of combat healing, someone doing All The Medicine Feats will always be king, and it can be anyone in the party. kineticist with delicious fruit is up there they also get to heal everyone in the party every ten minutes (and can do so without actually having to spend ten minutes doing it)
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Oct 17, 2023 17:15
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my av group would have flatlined this week if it wasn't for our wood kineticist growing a tree that kept absorbing the boss' absurd rolls while fruit got people back on their feet
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Oct 17, 2023 17:46
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If I were to do a Trip + Grab while on Uneven Terrain, would the enemy then have to Break the Grab + Stand + Balance? Thus eating their whole turn?
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Oct 18, 2023 00:17
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Use your third action to hamper
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Oct 18, 2023 01:46
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appropriatemetaphor posted:If I were to do a Trip + Grab while on Uneven Terrain, would the enemy then have to Break the Grab + Stand + Balance? Thus eating their whole turn? I'm not sure but I dont think they would have to balance unless they try to move out of the square after standing. Balance posted:Requirements You are in a square that contains a narrow surface, uneven ground, or another similar feature. The wording reads to me like the enemy would use the balance action instead of stride or step when they wanted to move on uneven ground, not that they automatically have to balance.
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Oct 18, 2023 02:21
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Kitfox88 posted:my av group would have flatlined this week if it wasn't for our wood kineticist growing a tree that kept absorbing the boss' absurd rolls while fruit got people back on their feet  Especially after the team tore through everything else, I didn't think it'd be that hard! Chevy Slyme posted:You should ask them to change. The Roll20 PF2E experience is Very Bad. Also, while I have only one session of experience with it so far (and if you don't own the book PDF, the KM module is One Hundred Dollarydoos), the Foundry KM module has been extremely impressive so far. There's a reason it's taken like a year to come out, and it'll take a few more months for chapters 7-12 to hit. SpaceDrake fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 02:31
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