|
Discendo Vox posted:That's not the same claim as "to deter anyone from attacking Israel while Israel conducts its attacks on Gaza, Lebanon, and Syria." You're right they're just there to deter anyone from attacking Israel while the IDF sits there twiddling their thumbs. Why the gently caress do you think they need deterrence for?
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 11:54 |
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:39
|
|
|
On top of being a horrific war crime, this attack on a hospital (and apparently another on a UN school?) massively complicates Biden's visit. Yes he was going to give support, but the US has also just started to press for humanitarian aid to Gaza. I suspect Biden realized he needed to make a large political gesture, which became this extremely hasty visit, to press home how serious the US is about this humanitarian aid. Knowing Biden was less than a day away and was probably going to push for some aid to Gaza, Israel went ahead striking the worst civilian target possible. It's almost a political threat to Biden, "don't criticize us for literally any action or we'll only embarrass you more for being forced to support us" Which aside from being horrific, is probably a bad idea for Israel. There's a reason Biden's feeling pressure to push for aid; both sides of the political spectrum have growing camps that either don't want to go back into the Middle East, or are against Israel for either humanitarian or other political reasons. US support is still massive and won't disappear soon if for no other reason than strategic goals, but Israel is grossly overestimating both how much the US public supports them, and how stable the US political system providing the support is. See the US House of Representatives right now; the whole thing is falling apart at the seams.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:42
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1714314827173175680?s=46 Mostly posting this because of the screenshot since it was eventually deleted. Probably felt that it made them look too much like the villain especially after bombing a hospital during their genocidal massacre
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:43
|
|
|
B B posted:Rashida Tlaib is openly criticizing Joe Biden after the attack on the hospital that reportedly killed 500 Palestinians (Tlaib's number). I'm including the text of the tweet, because it includes a picture of the blast that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of civilians. The tweet itself is available below in spoiler tags--just be warned that you will see a large explosion if you click on it. As much as most of us would wish it, Biden won't reconsider his approach publicly at least and neither will the American political apparatus as a whole. You replace Biden with any other US president and it's the same thing. The only thing that old rear end in a top hat had going for him was that he isn't loving Trump. American politics is loving poo poo. Everything about their unwavering support for that apartheid poo poo state is loving poo poo. I used to strongly believe that, even though American democracy has become a farce, at least Americans have the right and freedom to vote. I always used to tell myself that I'd rather have the ability to vote in a corrupt democracy instead of not have the right to vote at all or if my vote would result in my death (which is what I've grown up with). The past couple of years has made me reconsider that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:43
|
|
|
Ripperljohn posted:Jesus loving christ. A no fly zone.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:45
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:I can't find these statements, can you link them? Reposting from earlier in the thread- https://www.centcom.mil/MEDIA/PRESS...iterranean-sea/ quote:
That seems pretty clear to me, especially that last paragraph when presented in the context of Israel’s attacks on their neighbors and Gaza. But perhaps there is a media literate way to identify that up is actually down.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:45
|
|
|
mannerup posted:posting this to show real time changes in reporting for headlines and the lede, the initial report pushed out by the Associate Press for this incident was Evil poo poo. Death to Israel (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:50
|
|
|
B B posted:Rashida Tlaib is openly criticizing Joe Biden after the attack on the hospital that reportedly killed 500 Palestinians (Tlaib's number). I'm including the text of the tweet, because it includes a picture of the blast that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of civilians. The tweet itself is available below in spoiler tags--just be warned that you will see a large explosion if you click on it. There are videos on that link purportedly showing a misfired Hamas rocket hitting the hospital. I don't know what is true anymore but I don't see the IDF bombing a hospital, while Biden visits, as a great strategy
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:51
|
|
|
fatelvis posted:There is already a counter narrative that this was a misfired Hamas rocket. There is video of the strike from a distance, and it certainly doesn't look like that - but I ain't no expert. It doesn’t make common sense. We know based on the rockets that have hit Israel, they don’t have the power to level a hospital and kill 500 people. Oklahoma City only killed 168, with an absolutely massive truck bomb, rather than at most a 10kg warhead.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:51
|
|
|
kolby posted:There are videos on that link purportedly showing a misfired Hamas rocket hitting the hospital. Hamas' rockets typically leave a pothole if they hit a road. I have never seen any evidence of them being as potent as the one that brought down that hospital. It defies common sense to look at the damage and say "oh yes, Hamas misfire" when we know that the side with massively more powerful ordnance and a history of deliberately targeting places of medical care and shelter have been systematically flattening the area.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:55
|
|
|
kolby posted:There are videos on that link purportedly showing a misfired Hamas rocket hitting the hospital. Beyond the scale of the damage, that video appears to have been taken around sunset but from what I can tell that would have been over three hours ago.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:55
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:56
|
|
mannerup posted:posting this to show real time changes in reporting for headlines and the lede, the initial report pushed out by the Associate Press for this incident was That's pretty appropriate, the problem is that the first version didn't go out with that context on source and verification. Best Friends posted:Reposting from earlier in the thread- The context is something you've added and is not "by centcom’s own statements" as you claimed.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:56
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1714314827173175680?s=46 It may have been deleted because of international optics, but that is apparently a transcript of Netanyahu's speech to the Knesset.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 19:58
|
|
|
kolby posted:There are videos on that link purportedly showing a misfired Hamas rocket hitting the hospital. The video showing the misfired Hamas rocket shows the power still on in Gaza. There is no power to Gaza right now. The video that was posted by Palestinians clearly shows an air strike on a target in a blacked out area. Which one do you think is more likely to be true?
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:00
|
|
|
I wish this was the loving wake up call for Biden (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:02
|
|
|
FizFashizzle posted:A no fly zone. How would shooting down Israeli jets de-escalate things?
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:03
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:
My view is that statements exist and are decipherable within and because of the context in which they are made. Is it your view that centcom just happened to move those carriers and then make statements about how those carriers are there to deter any attacks on Israel? Because even in that interpretation, they are saying they are there to deter attacks on Israel, while israel is attacking its neighbors. Attacks have expanded, and the carriers have not moved. My interpretation is the plain, intended, and obvious reading. The officer quoted in it would be bewildered by your not reading it that way.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:04
|
|
|
uPen posted:How would shooting down Israeli jets de-escalate things? It would prevent them from dropping bombs on hospitals.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:06
|
|
|
uPen posted:How would shooting down Israeli jets de-escalate things? If Israel is so committed to ethnic cleansing that they would defy a US enforced no-fly zone then I'm not sure anything will de-escalate this situation.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:07
|
|
|
 The IDF bots are out in force claiming that the hospital was hit by a failed Hamas rocket launch. The video they post to prove this shows all the buildings in Gaza with their lights on, so it's at least a few days old.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:07
|
|
|
uPen posted:How would shooting down Israeli jets de-escalate things? I took this as a joke referencing all the calls for a no fly zone in Ukraine last year as if they were the magic words to stop a war.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:09
|
|
Best Friends posted:My view is that statements exist and are decipherable within and because of the context in which they are made. They are not saying that they are there to deter attacks on Israel while Israel is attacking its neighbors. The statement is not the same as the context, and you are adding that context and attributing it to the statement in the initial post. This could be solved by, when you first cite to a source, actually providing or quoting the source rather than "interpreting" it without providing it.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:15
|
|
|
I'm not going to look at any videos of purported hospital bombings, but has Hamas ever had rockets capable of leveling a building? There was an Israeli hospital struck during the initial barrage on Saturday, and the damage amounted to a hole in the wall and zero casualties. E: Discendo Vox posted:They are not saying that they are there to deter attacks on Israel while Israel is attacking its neighbors. The statement is not the same as the context, and you are adding that context and attributing it to the statement in the initial post. This could be solved by, when you first cite to a source, actually providing or quoting the source rather than "interpreting" it without providing it. They're not saying "the carrier group is there to deter attacks on Israel, while permitting Israel to attack its neighbors," that's correct, they're merely saying "the carrier group is there to deter attacks on Israel," while permitting Israel to attack its neighbors. Is that a meaningful distinction? Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Oct 17, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:15
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:I'm not going to look at any videos of purported hospital bombings, but has Hamas ever had rockets capable of leveling a building? There was an Israeli hospital struck during the initial barrage on Saturday, and the damage amounted to a hole in the wall and zero casualties. As far as I know,.not even close. You need a serious supply chain and facilities to make bombs like that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:16
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:I'm not going to look at any videos of purported hospital bombings, but has Hamas ever had rockets capable of leveling a building? There was an Israeli hospital struck during the initial barrage on Saturday, and the damage amounted to a hole in the wall and zero casualties. Congratulations, you have basic common loving sense, unlike Zionists. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:18
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:I'm not going to look at any videos of purported hospital bombings, but has Hamas ever had rockets capable of leveling a building? There was an Israeli hospital struck during the initial barrage on Saturday, and the damage amounted to a hole in the wall and zero casualties. I've seen worse pot holes in the northeast US than the damage the average Hamas rocket does.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:19
|
|
|
Ilhan Omar is also calling on Biden to change course: https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/1714358704303157661
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:20
|
|
|
Nail Rat posted:As far as I know,.not even close. You need a serious supply chain and facilities to make bombs like that. this bombing is getting close to the higher end of western arsenals. hamas has a handful of proper missiles but I don't think Iran has somehow managed to sneak Scuds into Gaza
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:21
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:That's pretty appropriate, the problem is that the first version didn't go out with that context on source and verification. The problem is that the second one is implying that the event is inherently misleading because the Ministry of Health is ran by Hamas. Reuters’ headline is better: “At least 300 dead in Gaza hospital bombing, local authorities say” https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/least-500-victims-israeli-air-strike-hospital-gaza-health-ministry-2023-10-17/ The implications aren’t as damning as AP’s.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:21
|
|
|
Israel always does this - they murdered 9 kids during the last bombardment and blamed it on an Islamic Jihad misfire then walked it back and admitted to it after nobody was paying attention. They bombed a convoy fleeing south and said it was an IED who's buying this poo poo it's so lazy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:30
|
|
|
Orthanc6 posted:On top of being a horrific war crime, this attack on a hospital (and apparently another on a UN school?) massively complicates Biden's visit. Yes he was going to give support, but the US has also just started to press for humanitarian aid to Gaza. I suspect Biden realized he needed to make a large political gesture, which became this extremely hasty visit, to press home how serious the US is about this humanitarian aid. This toxic relationship is similar to a dysfunctional arrangement between a mother and a stepfather and a child. The Republicans are like Israel's mother, and the Democrats are the stepfather. But the mother and stepfather get into arguments, and when the child acts out and the stepfather tries to discipline the child, the mother shouts "don't you hurt *my* child!" And the mother might even encourage the child to act out as a way of slapping the stepfather who can't strike back, which is obviously a shameful situation.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:32
|
|
|
fuctifino posted:
Israel says that the hospital were previously warned to evacuate.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:38
|
|
|
Mr. Apollo posted:It's from October 2022. Replying to Mr. Apollo, nothing stated below is intended as an insult to Mr. Apollo nor a vague statement against any strawmen. Evacuate to where? Gaza doesn't have a row of empty hospitals that they can daisy-chain down. Shitloads of people are injured, dying, or on the cusp of dying, many of them literally cannot be moved. They can't load everyone up in five separate hospitals on gurneys and cart them down to the nearest non-targeted refugee center.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:45
|
|
|
Mr. Apollo posted:It's from October 2022. I know they've used that post-facto excuse before but it doesn't make any sense to me. Are you (the hypothetical you) bombing a hospital because there's military targets in it? Then why would you tell them? But, even if you warned everyone that you were going to hit a hospital, that still establishes the fact that it's important to you to destroy the hospital. If you know anything about hospitals you know very well it can't simply be evacuated either. Nothing about that excuse adds up if you think about it for a non-zero amount of time.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:47
|
|
|
.
mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Nov 5, 2023 |
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:48
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:Replying to Mr. Apollo, nothing stated below is intended as an insult to Mr. Apollo nor a vague statement against any strawmen. mannerup posted:is there a source for this claim that isn't The Spectator Index? I know they cited Al Jazeera but I did not see that statement on any of their official channels.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:48
|
|
|
Fog of war is still a thing and after this happened hamas immediately blamed the IDF. IDF spokesperson said they warned the hospital, then that statement was walked back and they said they're investigating. There is now footage of rockets being launched from blacked-out Gaza and one of them falling which looks very similar to the hospital explosion. https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/1714357237873803292?s=20 Could be old, but isn't as unconvincing as the other definitely old footage from other wars or from a Gaza skyline that still had its lights on. No one knows anything for sure yet, so the reporting has been extremely unprofessional and conflict-inciting, especially as there is news that there are assaults happening at various Israeli embassies in the ME, and there is now currently intense gunfire and explosions in Ramallah in the West Bank, between protesters against the alleged IDF strike on the hospital and Israeli security forces. EDIT: IDF now saying they are 100% it was a failed rocket launch. Said absolute proof will be released soon.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 11:54 |
|
|
Mr. Apollo posted:It's from October 2022. Confirmation with the original video posted in 2022: https://x.com/hughyn/status/1714365263666188463?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2023 20:49
|
|