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Holly is way worse. Under the Dome has fun characters and characters you love to hate as villains. Holly just follows...Holly as your POV character, with one of the villains being someone who pretends to be a liberal elite, but is a pastiche of every Trumper, secretly - and this is interjected in odd places every time we go to the villain POV. Which is played as a contrast to Holly, who is autistic and super cares about every Covid rule and states it in every interaction she has with any new character. It reads really weirdly because of this. This is obviously Kings Covid book, and you can pretty much see every Twitter rant he had about Trump take form in the book itself to the point where that basically is the book. It doesn't really read like his other political books like Dead Zone or whatever; there is very little narrative and it's like a collection of mini statements from him, using Holly as a delivery mechanism and using her autism to be more direct about it than normal instead of weaving it into a more compelling narrative using other writing techniques.
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Oct 5, 2023 11:08
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BiggerBoat posted:Wait, what? Who's saying he's just now injecting politics into his books? First one of his I read was The Dead Zone where the protagonist basically tries to stop someone like Trump. What, are people complaining that King is woke now? I love that King states more or less outright that there are no "subtle" ways to stop fascists, and only a bullet will do it. Endeared him to me forever.
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Oct 5, 2023 11:11
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He's also a great believer in the adage, "I know writers who use subtext and they're all cowards."
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Oct 5, 2023 11:26
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The film Birdemic none-too-subtly warns us of climate change and encourages alternative forms of energy. That's good. Sadly it's such an impossibly bad movie that it doesn't matter. Bad messaging is worse thn no messaging at all. Especially in a story. I think a great writer once talked about this... quote:"I don't understand this at all. I don't understand any of this. Why does a story have to be socio-anything? Politics . . . culture . . . history . . . aren't those natural ingredients in any story, if it's told well? I mean . . ." He looks around, sees hostile eyes, and realizes dimly that they see this as some sort of attack. Maybe it even is. They are thinking, he realizes, that maybe there is a sexist death merchant in their midst. "I mean . . . can't you guys just let a story be a story?"
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Oct 5, 2023 11:55
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Just ascribe to the Dan Ryckert theory of "fictional characters can't be political. They're just made up!"
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Oct 5, 2023 13:15
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Philippe posted:He's also a great believer in the adage, "I know writers who use subtext and they're all cowards." To be fair I feel like it has been thoroughly proven that if you have subtext in a story, 90% of your audience will miss it and assume that Death Skull X: The Genociderator was actually the protagonist you were supposed to root for.
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Oct 5, 2023 13:31
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The real hosed up thing is when you read something like The Tommyknockers and go "holy poo poo... this guy is me" in such a way that you are reminded of your wild days in your early to mid 20s.
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Oct 5, 2023 14:24
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Lt Jon Kavanaugh posted:I agree with Kings politics but they're a large part of why Holly is unreadable dogshit, page after page about covid and masks and Trump is not good reading at all but glad you got to enjoy some idiots one star review It's important for people with poo poo politics to be reminded now and again that they are free to read King books but aren't welcome. Holly is a book defined by a character who saw an older loved one fall down the nutter pipeline and die as a result. It's a less than uncommon covid experience that he wanted to use as the focal point. For at least 2 years Covid and Trump was the centerpiece of American existence and it's odd to think it wouldn't be a centerpiece of existence during a book set in that time. It's like someone writing an anti-Vietnam war piece and readers complaining that they talked too much about Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon and on. Also that one star review is great because they genuinely believe that literature should be a safe space for them to just enjoy a nice tale, free from politics or issues of the day. The entitlement, it's something else. Shammypants fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Oct 5, 2023 |
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Oct 5, 2023 14:39
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Well, I finished Book 7 of the Dark Tower last night. I'm still thinking about it and probably will for a while. A lot of posters in here were down on books 5-7, and I agree for the most part that they are a let down after book four, I did still enjoy substantial parts of the last three books, particularly Wolves of Calla. Still didn't really enjoy the meta fiction elements of King as a character/conduit of Gan but I understand his reasoning for having that in there. The deaths of Eddie, Jake and especially Oy (RIP to the best character in the series) felt abrupt and a bit...I don't know, perfunctory? Like they had to happen, so they happened. Jake's especially! And the Delado (sp?) warning from Eddie and again from JAke, all for that to just be some emotional vampire with the literal deux ex machina in the basement...Patrick is from anotehr novel I haven't read, I guess, but it just kinda sucked to have that guy along for the last trek to the tower and for his powers to be the solution to the Crimson King on the balcony I don't know, I'm disatisfied and a bit bummed that King did these characters like that and a lot of the choices made in the last two-three books. Speaking of which - Susannah. Jesus, King really didn't handle her well from start to finish, and even though I agree with her choice to leave Roland, she did it in a way that really sucked the power from that character, with the sneaking off to weep thing, the reliance on Detta... he really never treated her well as a character, I felt. Mordred didn't need to contract food poisoning either! What the gently caress. I guess it's a testament to King an the novels generally for making me care this much and get this mad lol Sorry, this is getting ranty - but the last bit I have to bitch about is the gunslinger's Coda. I shouldn't have read it. MNIMWA fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Oct 6, 2023 |
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Oct 6, 2023 13:24
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MNIMWA posted:
To be fair he did tell you not to. It's interesting to re-read the (modern editions of) Gunslinger with a reading of the Coda, I'll note. I'm not sure when the text entered the current form, possibly only after 2003, but it is aware of the ending.
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Oct 6, 2023 13:50
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BiggerBoat posted:He also was all on board for Maximum Overdrive. the cocaine had majority vote for that one
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Oct 6, 2023 14:23
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65GQg06SX90
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Oct 6, 2023 14:30
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lines posted:To be fair he did tell you not to. Exactly! I should have listened. The version of the gunslinger I read was pretty old, but I'll take a look at that.
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Oct 6, 2023 15:14
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MNIMWA posted:Exactly! I should have listened. The version of the gunslinger I read was pretty old, but I'll take a look at that. It's been a little while since I read it but there's a number of hints that indicate a) the moment where the book starts is precisely when he "resumes his quest", b) he's dimly aware of this on some level, possibly at least up until the meeting with Walter/Flagg and the Drawing. I really like the Coda, despite it being... like on some level I wish I hadn't read it either. But he has the horn, so on some level I think we are permitted to imagine, one day, Roland happy: which is what the presence of the printing of Childe Rolande is meant to indicate I think. It just makes you feel exhausted because you realise that everything that came before was actually just a grain of sand on the mountain at the edge of infinity. There's an episode of Doctor Who with similar vibes.
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Oct 6, 2023 15:20
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lines posted:
It's this and I felt like as he was travelling up the tower, he was still refusing to examine his past or accept where he had failed, skipping levels, moving on when he felt himself feeling emotions too strongly..like it just didn't work as a resolution to his character, perhaps except if you can imagine the next cycle being the last and his eventual use of the horn being part of a redemptive process? I don't know
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Oct 6, 2023 15:25
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MNIMWA posted:It's this and I felt like as he was travelling up the tower, he was still refusing to examine his past or accept where he had failed, skipping levels, moving on when he felt himself feeling emotions too strongly..like it just didn't work as a resolution to his character, perhaps except if you can imagine the next cycle being the last and his eventual use of the horn being part of a redemptive process? I don't know I think it isn't a resolution. The series we just read turns out to be one part of a very, very slow redemptive process. Maybe, one day, he'll reach the end of the road: but he's got very far to go until then. You could perhaps also do a reading that he is permitted to go back further and further - clearly by having the horn at least the past can be rewritten. Perhaps his reward might be the events of Wizard and Glass's flashback panning out differently? I guess the point is we don't get to know. You know: "go, then - there are other worlds than these".
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Oct 6, 2023 16:12
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all good points. I'm just bummed to be finished, I guess - and particularly am going to miss those characters, especially Jake
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Oct 6, 2023 16:43
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Lt Jon Kavanaugh posted:I agree with Kings politics but they're a large part of why Holly is unreadable dogshit, page after page about covid and masks and Trump is not good reading at all but glad you got to enjoy some idiots one star review yeah. my issues with that stuff is it dates the gently caress out of your book, like alot of kings books feel dated, like alot of stuff is reliant on payphones and stuff but that kinda gives it a cozy feel. i also love kings politics metioning trump and covid every 10 seconds kinda drags and dates the book.
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Oct 6, 2023 16:53
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I think that's one of King's strengths, actually -- because he's been so prolific over so many decades and a lot of his stories are set in contemporary America, he slots right in to a kind of literary American Naturalism. The weird result of that for me, though, is that his early stuff from the 70s that references like, Country Joe and the Fish feels like real history, but when he brings up Harry Potter or Game of Thrones it feels strange and out of place even though it's the same trick.
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Oct 6, 2023 17:31
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Eason the Fifth posted:I think that's one of King's strengths, actually -- because he's been so prolific over so many decades and a lot of his stories are set in contemporary America, he slots right in to a kind of literary American Naturalism. The weird result of that for me, though, is that his early stuff from the 70s that references like, Country Joe and the Fish feels like real history, but when he brings up Harry Potter or Game of Thrones it feels strange and out of place even though it's the same trick. I will be honest that as a UK kid growing up in the early 00s, King was a sort of window into a mythical exotic land known as "America", to the extent that I used to think without irony "it would be cool to go to Nebraska one day".
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Oct 6, 2023 17:41
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MNIMWA posted:Well, I finished Book 7 of the Dark Tower last night. I'm still thinking about it and probably will for a while. A lot of posters in here were down on books 5-7, and I agree for the most part that they are a let down after book four, I did still enjoy substantial parts of the last three books, particularly Wolves of Calla. Still didn't really enjoy the meta fiction elements of King as a character/conduit of Gan but I understand his reasoning for having that in there. The deaths of Eddie, Jake and especially Oy (RIP to the best character in the series) felt abrupt and a bit...I don't know, perfunctory? Like they had to happen, so they happened. Jake's especially! And the Delado (sp?) warning from Eddie and again from JAke, all for that to just be some emotional vampire with the literal deux ex machina in the basement...Patrick is from anotehr novel I haven't read, I guess, but it just kinda sucked to have that guy along for the last trek to the tower and for his powers to be the solution to the Crimson King on the balcony Come come Commala, the quality of these books is drastically gonna Fall-a
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Oct 6, 2023 21:08
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5,6 and 7 should really have been cut down to two medium length books. There just seems like so much bloat in them.
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Oct 6, 2023 22:17
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah. my issues with that stuff is it dates the gently caress out of your book, like alot of kings books feel dated, like alot of stuff is reliant on payphones and stuff but that kinda gives it a cozy feel. i also love kings politics metioning trump and covid every 10 seconds kinda drags and dates the book. The dated references are my absolute favorite part of early King novels. Especially the parts about computers in the 80s. I think I'm just old enough to still have that cultural memory of the 80s even though I was born in 89, so it feels very familiar to me.
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Oct 6, 2023 22:27
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Vargatron posted:The dated references are my absolute favorite part of early King novels. Especially the parts about computers in the 80s. I think I'm just old enough to still have that cultural memory of the 80s even though I was born in 89, so it feels very familiar to me. I was born in '88 and learning about the state of computers and tech in the 80s is one of my favorite parts of some of Michael Crichton's books from back then. It's legitimately fascinating, especially in Sphere.
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Oct 6, 2023 23:40
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NikkolasKing posted:I was born in '88 and learning about the state of computers and tech in the 80s is one of my favorite parts of some of Michael Crichton's books from back then. It's legitimately fascinating, especially in Sphere. he did an entire book on the subject called Electronic Life in the early 80s. It actually taught me a lot when I was an early teenager, despite being outdated not long after it came out.
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Oct 7, 2023 00:44
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escape artist posted:Come come Commala, the quality of these books is drastically gonna Fall-a tbh 2 had some pretty lovely parts relative to 1, 3 and 4
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Oct 7, 2023 01:20
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah. my issues with that stuff is it dates the gently caress out of your book, like alot of kings books feel dated, like alot of stuff is reliant on payphones and stuff but that kinda gives it a cozy feel. i also love kings politics metioning trump and covid every 10 seconds kinda drags and dates the book. Why wouldn't he want to date it? As mentioned he's going to have a catalogue of books that spans a large period of American history and where those moments existed in parallel to his fictional tales. It's actually very cool and good
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Oct 7, 2023 01:26
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^^ Agreed. MNIMWA posted:tbh 2 had some pretty lovely parts relative to 1, 3 and 4 I agree with that too for sure. The Dean sections were so good, and the lobstrosities... but Roland uhhh, possessing people from the 'real world' instead of, you know, exploring the fascinating world depicted in The Gunslinger was so disappointing. 1 and 3 are my favorites for sure
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Oct 7, 2023 04:00
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:he did an entire book on the subject called Electronic Life in the early 80s. It actually taught me a lot when I was an early teenager, despite being outdated not long after it came out. I love reading books from the 80's and early 90's predicting where technology and "cyber-culture" were going to go. electronic music/raves are actually mentioned far more than i would of thought but it does make sense. Such optimistic times!
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Oct 7, 2023 05:45
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Does Holly have that "Stephen King writing smart people" thing where a SUPERGENIUS is actually just someone who tells everyone around them trivia at all times?
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Oct 7, 2023 22:57
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Shammypants posted:It's important for people with poo poo politics to be reminded now and again that they are free to read King books but aren't welcome. Holly is a book defined by a character who saw an older loved one fall down the nutter pipeline and die as a result. It's a less than uncommon covid experience that he wanted to use as the focal point. For at least 2 years Covid and Trump was the centerpiece of American existence and it's odd to think it wouldn't be a centerpiece of existence during a book set in that time. It's like someone writing an anti-Vietnam war piece and readers complaining that they talked too much about Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon and on. The part that's being missed here is that Holly is not a good book, nor is she a good protagonist - so there is nothing to it but a platform for King to rant. I didn't read the one star review, just talking about the book in itself for reference. It's really hard to talk about, though, because it has both a terrible antagonist that doesn't really make much technical sense, shies away from violence as older King has done and keeping it "offscreen" which makes it not visceral in the slightest and detached, while following a not good invincible protagonist. It's just not what anyone got into King for. Hard to get into more details without spoiling.
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Oct 8, 2023 01:22
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First time I lived in the US was in small town Michigan. One of the reasons Christine will always have a place in my heart is that it really nails the feeling of teenager in depressed rust belt town where car culture and "cruising" are the only common weekend activities.
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Oct 8, 2023 01:25
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I live in a town of ~10,000, that only survives because we're off a major highway and we've got a prison. I can feel Castle Rock
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Oct 8, 2023 02:16
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Darko posted:The part that's being missed here is that Holly is not a good book, nor is she a good protagonist - so there is nothing to it but a platform for King to rant. To be fair I didn't really LOVE the Mr. Mercedes books or any of the characters. The Institute, Billy Summers, Fairy Tale etc. were so good recently that the Mr. Mercedes universe books didn't register for me. I read them, thought they were good as usual Stephen King books are but won't ever think of them again. People want non-horror King so he provides them with it. It's no where near as good as his non-horror bangers of old, but they serve a function. poo poo, most popular mysteries are way worse (i.e. The Silent Patient). As a last comment about covid and politics in the book: Ultimately, I think any book that is written during early covid that doesn't have characters talking about Covid and politics a shitload is actually unrealistic. In a politically split state like (somewhere near Ohio, I am guessing Ohio?), where there were battles over local and state ordinances and an early outbreak relative to the rest of the US, it makes even more sense to have it present. It dominated everything during that time, even among those who didn't want to wear masks or thought covid was "fake." Whether it's good or bad to include it a ton is good or bad isn't really the issue for me, because that's what it was. Shammypants fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 04:41
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Shammypants posted:To be fair I didn't really LOVE the Mr. Mercedes books or any of the characters. The Institute, Billy Summers, Fairy Tale etc. were so good recently that the Mr. Mercedes universe books didn't register for me. I read them, thought they were good as usual Stephen King books are but won't ever think of them again. People want non-horror King so he provides them with it. It's no where near as good as his non-horror bangers of old, but they serve a function. poo poo, most popular mysteries are way worse (i.e. The Silent Patient). And the guy that wrote The Stand could make a super interesting book about Covid and a good portion of the country following a demagogue. This just wasn't it, unfortunately.
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Oct 10, 2023 05:10
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I’m reading the Talisman for the first time. I was getting real sick of listening to Wolf whine nonstop for 100 pages, and while he went out like a boss, I was kinda glad he was gone. Then Richard is introduced immediately after and proceeds to whine nonstop. 
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Oct 18, 2023 14:51
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lines posted:I think it isn't a resolution. The series we just read turns out to be one part of a very, very slow redemptive process. Maybe, one day, he'll reach the end of the road: but he's got very far to go until then. Questions to make sense of the ending of DT: On the surface level, it feels like Roland's journey is that same idea that King likes of Hell being repetition for eternity, which on the surface level makes sense...until you look at everything. Is every time he loops him repairing a part of himself? Is the people he encounter the same? The story feels like Roland improves because he makes a family after he had cast aside everyone else on his journey...but does that mean these other people Jake, Susannah, Eddie, Oy, are they all stuck in the same cycle or are they on their own path to redemption and Roland encounters another group this next go around? Is this whole Dark Tower obsession Roland's punishment? If he is in Hell what did he actually do to not exactly be tortured but offered a chance at Salvation? Spoilered for story discussion obviously, but I know I'm probably reading way to much into it and I should just accept what King wrote and not think too hard on it because I don't think he did either, he just wanted to be done because he had an existential crisis and it really shows. Also, I'll say, King did a great disservice by reworking Gunslinger. I LOVE the original and the changes to make everything "19" is dumb.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:26
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Diabetic posted:Questions to make sense of the ending of DT: He's explicitly shown to be improving every time. He has the horn of Eld now, which heavily implies that he is about to embark on the last loop which ends with the Browning poem. Also I'm pretty sure there is strong evidence that his first gently caress-up in the book series (letting Jake fall) is the thing he Got Wrong which doomed the rest of the loop we are reading about. King probably did not have the ending in mind when he originally wrote The Gunslinger, but it is clearly what he intended at least as far back as Wizard & Glass. Yes the 19 stuff is dumb and he shouldn't have rewritten that book, it wasn't necessary to make the point.
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Oct 18, 2023 16:34
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I really enjoyed Fairy Tale, so Holly’s reception as an artistic comedown/mixed bag for King is a bummer. And the last thing I want to read about in fiction is miserable IRL subject matter like COVID and Trump.
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Oct 18, 2023 18:37
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mdemone posted:
Fixed
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Oct 19, 2023 00:47
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