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Mid-Life Crisis posted:No, there are underground networks they can’t really get to without land invasion. Getting the civilians out is the primer to going in there to get to the networks and dismantle this. Ah, so just a full ethnic cleansing, not an extermination. And yes, it’s very inconvenient that all those civilians congregating at hospitals are just “staying behind” from their move to… where exactly? e: oops posted normally, so I’ll just point out that your explicitly genocidal conception of Israel’s proper near term course of action makes the importance of a ceasefire obvious, both for the sake of people not getting genocided, and from the standpoint of Israel’s long-term survival. LGD fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 11:54
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I consider the prevention of aid to southern Gaza as a negotiating tool for hostages as a separate issue. And Biden has made his stance clear he doesn’t support Israel’s actions there.
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Oct 19, 2023 12:01
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I’m not sure how a cease fire is actually beneficial to the complicated situation at hand. These are two militaries at war. Hamas wants to hide and just restart again. Israel's methods of engaging with Hamas, tactically and strategically and in terms of long term policy are what's putting huge numbers of civilians at risk, not the hospital workers attempting to administer aid to civilians deprived of supplies, water and power. quote:Now whether Israel knowingly let the yon kippur attack ‘surprise’ them and used their own citizens as fodder to reignite the conflict and this not be a story of incompetence is a whole other conspiracy chat. But that’s attributing incompetence to covert malice, which is rarely true. Hamas using citizens as shields is a strategy, not incompetence, hence the simpler argument to make. Brucolac fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 12:07
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Hamas is unapologetically hiding in hospitals and schools and behind civilians. Always has been. Israel has made the intent to wipe out this network in northern Gaza by making it untenable for all civilians before the clean up operation. Hospitals are defying this under a shroud of righteousness, but can also be interpreted as effectively a form of defiance and protection for Hamas since they are known bad actors. You can’t claim a creed when you know your actions are delaying what the other party has made clear is an inevitable. ‘Do no harm’ doesn’t mean knowingly put hundreds people at exponential risk to have a slight increased chance save a couple. what. who do you think is being treated in these hospitals, people with a slight cough who could easily go home to their intact house? They have few resources and are trying to tend to the worst injuries, you can't just up and drive them away (where?) with a day's notice. An evacuation *will* kill people. This article (regarding a different hospital) is a week old, the situation has surely not improved since then: quote:Ghassan Abu-Sittah, a surgeon at al-Shifa Hospital, said the situation on Wednesday continued to deteriorate. “A number of patients, especially kids, are coming in with horrendous injuries,” he said. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/war-crime-gaza-medics-say-israel-targeting-ambulances-health-facilities (article contains picture of a destroyed ambulance with what may be blood smeared on the side)
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Oct 19, 2023 12:07
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I’m not sure how a cease fire is actually beneficial to the complicated situation at hand. These are two militaries at war. Hamas wants to hide and just restart again. I really don't think you understand how hard it is to move critical care patients. Turn them in bed so they won't get bed sores can cause a code blue. If Israel wants Hamas that bad, they need to risk their own soldiers to go in and sweep the hospital areas in accordance with international law (which Israel has terrible record of following), not bomb hospitals. This is a terrible position to take.
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Oct 19, 2023 12:28
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I’m not sure how a cease fire is actually beneficial to the complicated situation at hand. These are two militaries at war. Hamas wants to hide and just restart again. Once again: If a group uses human shields they're bad guys. If another group is aware of the human shields and drops bombs anyway, that makes them at least as bad. But even attributing it to "Israel has no ability to avoid civilian casualties due to how Hamas operates" is too kind to Israel. They're not even doing awful poo poo in the name of military necessity. They're doing it because they want to get rid of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and are trying to drive as many as possible out. They can't get away with outright killing two million people, but they sure can kill a few thousand and make life utterly untenable for the rest.
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Oct 19, 2023 12:28
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One thing that got lost in the news-cycle is that Israel has been bombing Gazan bakeries: https://x.com/mustafabatneen/status/1714932074040250863?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q https://x.com/wfpchief/status/1714673122090037645?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q https://x.com/itranslate123/status/1714969003607622062?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Oct 19, 2023 12:53
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Darth Walrus posted:One thing that got lost in the news-cycle is that Israel has been bombing Gazan bakeries: Feels more today like the hospital bombing was a deliberate Israeli attack on vital civilian infrastructure and less like the hospital bombing was a case of mistaken identity or rocket misfire Why else would you bomb bakeries, if you weren't planning to make the territory unlivable for the civilian population? Mid-Life Crisis posted:No, there are underground networks they can’t really get to without land invasion. Getting the civilians out is the primer to going in there to get to the networks and dismantle this. Where are they supposed to go? Their neighbors aren't offering to take the Palestinians in and Israel isn't opening their borders to crossing either Civilian evacuation points have also been targeted by the IOF (like that market that was hit last week) so it's not like the people in Gaza can get someplace safer in Gaza. Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 12:55
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Look it's Hamas's fault, they're hiding weapon caches in those pitas ATM, I'm guessing it's kind of awkward between Cindy and Meghan McCain. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 12:57
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Hospitals are defying this under a shroud of righteousness, So, you're arguing that these hospitals are only pretending to help sick and injured people? Can you please provide evidence for this claim?
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Oct 19, 2023 13:20
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I’m not saying two wrongs make any party here right to do whatever they want. What I’m pointing out is that doctors keeping hospitals from moving at this point and turning them into hubs is not helping the situation at hand, it’s playing into Hamas’ goals. There is a clear distinction between Hamas and Palestinians right now, which in itself I find to be progress in the grand scheme of things. Answer this question - if airlifts were provided (by a third party) to pull critical patients out, would they be safe to do so or would Hamas shoot them down? If the latter is true, the doctors need to move the operation. Hamas is clearly firing rockets off a stones throw away from this hospital, they are not dealing with some ‘bad eggs’, it’s clearly their doctrine. What the West appears to be endorsing is a campaign against Hamas and dismantling the underground networks that has facilitated them arming and firing rockets into Israel for decades now. The West has also made it clear that genocide is not okay. So a distinction has to be made between the two and those conflating them are not helping resolve the situation. Are these bakeries in the north or the south? If they are the last stalwarts refusing to leave the north they aren’t listening and letting the war between two militias take place. If they are in the south that’s far too close to genocide. IDF removing basic needs of the civilian population as a negotiating tool for hostages from militants is acting in bad faith - the militants aren’t going to be the ones starving it’s the civilians first. Biden is drawing a line here and I’m seeing the distinction too.
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Oct 19, 2023 13:45
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Answer this question - if airlifts were provided (by a third party) to pull critical patients out, would they be safe to do so or would Hamas shoot them down? Dude, the IDF would shoot them down if Hamas didn't And again, where are the hospitals going to "move" to? Egypt won't let anyone cross into Egypt, Israel won't let anyone cross into Israel. Where is the hospital gonna move to. Also, as many have said, IDF is hitting civillians on supposed "evacuation routes." So they could leave and move, and be exploded anyway. Not that there's anywhere to actually *go* Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 13:49
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:
Lets just say, hypothetically, this thing happened that has no chance of actually loving happening? How do you answer that?! You're a loving ghoul. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2023 13:49
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Events are moving quickly on the ground, many nations have requested their citizens to flee Lebanon. Is it possible an operation into that country is imminent?
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Oct 19, 2023 13:53
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:If the latter is true, the doctors need to move the operation. Move where? And how?
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Oct 19, 2023 13:58
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Nonsense posted:Events are moving quickly on the ground, many nations have requested their citizens to flee Lebanon. Is it possible an operation into that country is imminent? This seems like a good thing to post a source for.
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Oct 19, 2023 13:59
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:No, there are underground networks they can’t really get to without land invasion. Getting the civilians out is the primer to going in there to get to the networks and dismantle this.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:02
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Are these bakeries in the north or the south? If they are the last stalwarts refusing to leave the north they aren’t listening and letting the war between two militias take place. If they are in the south that’s far too close to genocide. IDF removing basic needs of the civilian population as a negotiating tool for hostages from militants is acting in bad faith - the militants aren’t going to be the ones starving it’s the civilians first. Biden is drawing a line here and I’m seeing the distinction too.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:02
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Nail Rat posted:This seems like a good thing to post a source for. https://www.reuters.com/world/canadian-foreign-minister-tells-citizens-leave-lebanon-now-2023-10-17/ https://english.alarabiya.net/News/saudi-arabia/2023/10/18/Saudi-Arabia-calls-on-citizens-to-immediately-leave-Lebanon
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Oct 19, 2023 14:06
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I’m not sure how a cease fire is actually beneficial to the complicated situation at hand. These are two militaries at war. He’s technically right, the US and Israel are at war with the Palestinian peoples. Mid-Life Crisis posted:
The Q-Anon style conspirational belief that (paraphrasing here) “patriots are in control” and that the US political leaders are actually extremely adept operators with secret plans is interesting to see as well. BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 14:07
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Nail Rat posted:This seems like a good thing to post a source for. https://twitter.com/AJABreaking/status/1714887411631632445 the UK is telling its citizens to flee the country while their options exist, Saudi Arabia also recently requested their citizens leave.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:08
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:I’m not saying two wrongs make any party here right to do whatever they want. What I’m pointing out is that doctors keeping hospitals from moving at this point and turning them into hubs is not helping the situation at hand, it’s playing into Hamas’ goals. There is a clear distinction between Hamas and Palestinians right now, which in itself I find to be progress in the grand scheme of things. I don’t think you understand how small Gaza is. The entire strip is 25 miles long by 5-6 miles wide. It’s one of the most densely populated places on the planet. Israel has made a completely arbitrary distinction between ‘north’ and ‘south’ that doesn’t exist. The largest city is in the ‘north’. There are over a million people in what Israel is calling the ‘north’. It’s just not even remotely practical to move that many people, and there’s no reason that they should have to move. Let’s also be clear that if Israel was interested in the welfare of their hostages, they would not be carpet bombing Gaza to an unprecedented scale. This is entirely about collective punishment. You also don’t shut off basic necessities like access to food, water, and electricity if you are trying to go after a militant group. The only things this will accomplish are getting more Palestinians to side with Hamas, since Israel is essentially treating all of Gaza as a fair target, and collective punishment. If Biden was serious about trying to avoid a humanitarian catastrophe, he would be calling for an immediate ceasefire and would have done so a week or more ago. But instead he is almost entirely siding with Israel and not even gently criticizing anything they are doing. I can count on one hand the number of US politicians who have called for a ceasefire. The rest are either silent or saying that Israel has carte blanche here.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:10
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IIRC, there's little previous solid evidence of Hamas actively using human shields as opposed to passively fighting within an extremely dense urban environment (translation: the Gaza Strip which is their home territory, which is evenly split between ultra-dense city and desert). Previous Amnesty International reports have said that's more the reserve of the IDF whenever they go on a lawn-mowing operation (thus the infamous image of a thirteen-year-old Palestinian boy who was handcuffed to the bonnet of a Humvee all the way back in 2004). I should also note that Gaza City, the main settlement of the Strip, is within the area that Israel has ordered civilians to evacuate, with no realistic likelihood that they will ever be likely to return (or that anything usable will be left for them if they do return). Forced relocation of a civilian population on that scale is itself a war crime, even before you take into account that Palestinians are being shunted out of the area in which most of their essential services are centralised into a small and barren area that's extremely unlikely to be able to support them. Asking them to abandon their entire loving healthcare infrastructure and camp out in the desert is completely insane.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:11
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Nail Rat posted:This seems like a good thing to post a source for. The US one was posted multiple times yesterday in between slap fights, I think the premise is reasonably well substantiated. That said, I think it probably is more just an abundance of caution after the Israeli missile strike killed a journalist last week, and in light of the hostile postures of both sides. If you wait until an operation has already been planned to make this kind of announcement you end up with everyone fighting to get on the last plane out when you'd rather just be able to say that anyone who is still there when poo poo goes down made that decision for themselves
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Oct 19, 2023 14:13
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Collective punishment is a war crime and withholding aid and water from civilians is unacceptable. I hold Israel to a higher standard than their opponents because Israel is a functioning nation state.BUUNNI posted:He’s technically right, the US and Israel are at war with the Palestinian peoples. It's not a war between similar strength opponents. I call it a prison uprising. Hryme fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 14:14
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Unrest is definitely spreading. A synagogue was sacked in Tunisia (waiting for confirmation by a France 24 reporter) https://twitter.com/liliagaida/status/1714749088749563958 https://twitter.com/MonicaLMarks/status/1714722835774509118 ^ a long thread that does a decent job trying to present proof, I won't post all the tweets except this disclaimer: https://twitter.com/MonicaLMarks/status/1714756451275624806 And in Lebanon, they're fighting the cops. Loud noises warning. https://twitter.com/juliamacfarlane/status/1714662041263214789 It doesn't surprise me countries are telling their citizens to get out if they can. The governor of Florida is currently bankrolling people fleeing Israel for some reason (always b griftin'). https://twitter.com/craigtimes/status/1714331292886520104
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Oct 19, 2023 14:24
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Darth Walrus posted:IIRC, there's little previous solid evidence of Hamas actively using human shields as opposed to passively fighting within an extremely dense urban environment (translation: the Gaza Strip which is their home territory, which is evenly split between ultra-dense city and desert). Previous Amnesty International reports have said that's more the reserve of the IDF whenever they go on a lawn-mowing operation (thus the infamous image of a thirteen-year-old Palestinian boy who was handcuffed to the bonnet of a Humvee all the way back in 2004). If they don’t cross an international border it’s recognized by the United Nations as “internal displacement”, not “forced displacement”, which therefore doesn’t make it a war crime.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:44
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:If they don’t cross an international border it’s recognized by the United Nations as “internal displacement”, not “forced displacement”, which therefore doesn’t make it a war crime. I don't think this is going to persuade many posters. Especially as noone is under the delusion that Israel will ever find themselves before the ICC (that's reserved for African leaders & Putin).
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Oct 19, 2023 14:46
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Nazi Germany can have a little internal displacement as a treat according to Mid-Life. Should have used that excuse at Nuremberg. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2023 14:47
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:If they don’t cross an international border it’s recognized by the United Nations as “internal displacement”, not “forced displacement”, which therefore doesn’t make it a war crime. Strong "but it's actually ephebophilia" vibes
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Oct 19, 2023 14:49
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Also, this assumes that Israeli borders will not follow the residents they're displacing, either de facto or de jure, as they occupy what used to be Gaza City. One of the biggest problems here is that as per precedent in this conflict so far, Palestinian civilians are exceedingly unlikely to be let back into the areas they've left.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:52
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:If they don’t cross an international border it’s recognized by the United Nations as “internal displacement”, not “forced displacement”, which therefore doesn’t make it a war crime. Get hosed. Once again, where do you expect Palestinian civilians to go?
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Oct 19, 2023 14:54
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:What I’m pointing out is that doctors keeping hospitals from moving at this point and turning them into hubs is not helping the situation at hand, it’s playing into Hamas’ goals. loving are they? Are they really?? Or is it that moving certain patients is extremely risky even in the best of conditions and would be a serious undertaking to do for a single patient in a peaceful western country? That the idea of moving an entire hospital is patently absurd? That the healthcare system is already massively overburdened by all the bombs and the siege, and the hospitals are already at double capacity or more, so the idea of abandoning more than half of Gaza's hospitals is barefacedly insane? That Israel has been entirely happy to target healthcare infrastructure such as the ambulances you would be using to try and move everyone - if the routes they use are even clear, rather than covered in five feet of rubble from flattened buildings.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:54
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:The West has also made it clear that genocide is not okay. quote:One person told ABC News that the “bulk” of the assistance will likely go toward Ukraine, while others also said that it included $10 billion for Israel. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity in order to discuss details that hadn't been announced yet by the White House. quote:U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said Thursday that the U.S. is placing no specific conditions on how Israel uses the American-provided munitions. Ah yes, the classic method of showing how against genocide you are - giving someone $10 billion dollars in weapons and then refusing to put any conditions on how they use them it. Also sorry to wade back into the “blood libel” debate but…. quote:The term is rarely used in American politics; however when it is used, it generally refers broadly to a person or group being the subject of unpleasant and damaging accusations. Do you guys think that if it was inappropriate and antisemitic to use more broadly, perhaps Alan Dershowitz would be pretty likely to call it out as such?
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Oct 19, 2023 14:54
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Neurolimal posted:I don't think this is going to persuade many posters. Especially as noone is under the delusion that Israel will ever find themselves before the ICC (that's reserved for black leaders & Putin). There’s no persuading posters trying to turn I/P into a black and white issue. For daring to discuss the intricacies that leaders around the world are navigating right now I’ve been red texted for giving the explanations for how Biden is taking his stance and drawing his line in the sand right now. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2023 14:56
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Is there a forums barometer widget available so I know who to support on this issue? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2023 14:57
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i fly airplanes posted:The Gaza Strip was formed from the Oslo Peace Accords which gave up Israeli control and put it under Palestinian Authority. The Israelis were removed as part of the Accords: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza i fly airplanes posted:My point is that the Israeli settlements being removed had nothing to do to the credit of Hamas, and instead was part of an internationally celebrated peace agreement. The reason Israel withdrew is because defending the settlements inside Gaza had become too costly to Israel. The reason this was true settlements in Gaza and not in the West Bank was because of the greater frequency of attacks on the Gaza settlements and the IDF forces deployed to protect those settlements. One group in particular, Hamas, was credited with most of this violent resistance inside Gaza. After the assassination of Hamas' figurehead Ahmed Yassin, the attacks by Hamas intensified greatly, with overall approval from the people of Gaza. Yassin was a very influential spiritual leader outside of Gaza as well, and his assassination marked a big turning point in the conflict. International sentiment quickly turned against the occupation, and Hamas was able to claim much more clout as a legitimate resistance movement. This happened in March 2004, and within a couple months Sharon's proposed withdrawal went from a fantasy to political reality. It was abundantly clear that the actions of Hamas was the primary reason behind Israel's withdrawal. And this is likely the sole reason that Hamas went on to win the election of 2006, for better or worse. They had made an incredibly compelling case that their means of resistance had worked against Israeli occupation.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:57
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:If they don’t cross an international border it’s recognized by the United Nations as “internal displacement”, not “forced displacement”, which therefore doesn’t make it a war crime. The UN Guiding Principles on Internal Displacement in fact defines Internally Displaced Persons as "persons or groups of persons who have been forced or obliged to flee or to leave their homes or places of habitual residence, in particular as a result of or in order to avoid the effects of armed conflict, situations of generalized violence, violations of human rights or natural or human-made disasters, and who have not crossed an internationally recognized state border." (source) Not only are they not mutually exclusive as you claimed, the former is in fact an absolute subset of the latter, by definition, according to your own source! Fuschia tude fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 14:58
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Darth Walrus posted:Also, this assumes that Israeli borders will not follow the residents they're displacing, either de facto or de jure, as they occupy what used to be Gaza City. One of the biggest problems here is that as per precedent in this conflict so far, Palestinian civilians are exceedingly unlikely to be let back into the areas they've left. This is also a fact they are purposely ignoring. Funny how all this Palestinian land keeps having Israeli settlers moving in, thereby permanently "internally displacing" the original owners.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:58
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brain smoothie posted:
Dershowitz is almost completely unrepresentative of anything. He's a piece of poo poo who's opportunistically carried water for any old pos for decades.
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