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mlmp08 posted:It’s true that Israel has committed war crimes and engaged in illegal collective punishment of civilians, proudly, even without mention of the hospital. So if somehow we could know 100000% that Israel was not responsible for the hospital, you still end up with dozens of other Israeli attacks on medical facilities and healthcare workers, civilians, and cutting off good water and electricity to civilians and humanitarian medical and aid supply systems. You're correct, but the issue is that nobody in power in the Arab world cared about any of those other things. Hamas' propaganda victory around this specific incident has made it impossible for them to quietly side with Israel against Hamas and makes it more difficult for the US and other countries to pressure Israel into a diplomatic solution.
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Oct 19, 2023 13:24
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psydude posted:You're correct, but the issue is that nobody in power in the Arab world cared about any of those other things. Well, this simply is not true, jfc, I hven’t seen an  this heavy handed in a long time. Saying “gee, it is shocking how everyone else (not me) is stuck in their own narrative bubble (but not me)”
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Oct 19, 2023 13:27
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mlmp08 posted:Well, this simply is not true, jfc, If it's not true, then why have various Arab states been quietly normalizing diplomatic and trade relations with Israel for the past 5 years? e: Also who the gently caress pissed in your cornflakes?
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Oct 19, 2023 13:29
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psydude posted:If it's not true, Dude, you have a LOT of work to do to make a coherent argument that Arab leaders did not care about Israel’s actions over the last two weeks, until the hospital. Personally, rather than doing that work, I recommend you just admit you wrote something very ignorant and untrue. It is not going to be hard for poster after poster to dogpile you with evidence that leaders of Arab-led countries (and other countries) did not approve of Israel’s collective punishments and striking civilians over the last couple weeks.
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Oct 19, 2023 13:32
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mlmp08 posted:Dude, you have a LOT of work to do to make a coherent argument that Arab leaders did not care about Israel’s actions over the last two weeks, until the hospital. Calm down, I think we're discussing different things and talking past each other. I took the context of your post to mean the post-2006 history of Israel's actions in Palestine up until this current war. Despite Israel's ongoing apartheid and indiscriminate bombing of civilians during that time, Arab leaders still decided to patch things up. Yeah, the last two weeks have changed the tone entirely, but the hospital bombing blew the lid off of the whole affair to a much more substantial degree than anything previously. psydude fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 13:36
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mlmp08 posted:It’s true that Israel has committed war crimes and engaged in illegal collective punishment of civilians, proudly, even without mention of the hospital. So if somehow we could know 100000% that Israel was not responsible for the hospital, you still end up with dozens of other Israeli attacks on medical facilities and healthcare workers, civilians, and cutting off good water and electricity to civilians and humanitarian medical and aid supply systems. Yeah, I think ultimately this hospital strike is more about narrative symbolism for IDF warcrimes in general than for the deaths it caused and a sort of litmus test for whether you really support Palestine. Even though cutting off water and power is likely to be way more deadly but it doesn't have same sort of cache. I'd analogize it a bit to Shani Louk- she became a symbol of Hamas's atrocities, so Hamas is attempting to cast doubt on the idea that she was killed*; by the same token this becomes a counternarrative so the Israeli gov is now attempting to cast doubt on the initial story. While I lean toward the Israelis hosed up and bombed a hospital, their explanation doesn't strike me as outside the realm of possibility so I try to reserve judgement on the issue until we get more info. Of course, I'm not an expert on airstrikes, missiles, or rockets, so unlike most of twitter I can't tell the difference between a 1000lb guided bomb and a 500lb dumb fire rocket from the whistling it makes as it travels in a grainy cellphone video. * IMO Shani Louk was 100% dead in that truck. If I see video of her alive from after that, then I'll believe it. But I imagine we will hear from Hamas spokespeople that she was killed in an Israeli attack while she was in their hospital, but of course nobody got a picture or video of her alive since then, wouldn't want to violate her hipaa privacy
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Oct 19, 2023 13:41
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mlmp08 posted:It’s true that Israel has committed war crimes and engaged in illegal collective punishment of civilians, proudly, even without mention of the hospital. So if somehow we could know 100000% that Israel was not responsible for the hospital, you still end up with dozens of other Israeli attacks on medical facilities and healthcare workers, civilians, and cutting off good water and electricity to civilians and humanitarian medical and aid supply systems. I'll be honest, I haven't been thinking straight since 07/10 so I may be missing a barb in your post, but basically yeah. A lot of people have a lot of legitimate reasons to be biased against us, and I agree with most of them. I know from personal experience that there are some, unfortunately few, things that are exaggerated or misrepresented - But I'm not defending any of the collective punishments, civilian casualties, or any other part of the bullshit we love to do. If there's any interest I can share some of my (outdated, I was officially released from reserve duty a few years ago) experiences from the Gaza and Northern divisions and how they manage the battlefield. Personally I don't have a lot of trust in our forces - Not to make a sincere effort to avoid civilian casualties and not to give an accurate image of what happened. The more time I spent in uniform the more disillusioned I became, and I have already decided that I won't send my daughter to enlist when she's eventually called up in the far future. I hope that we won't even live here by then. This current war is just terrible and heartbreaking on all sides and it's probably going to get a lot worse before it gets "better".
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Oct 19, 2023 13:44
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Don't Ask posted:I'll be honest, I haven't been thinking straight since 07/10 so I may be missing a barb in your post, but basically yeah. I'd be very interested to hear anything you care to share. I've found this conflict particularly difficult to follow-- it's turned everything, everywhere into a never ending bad-faith argument. Actual experience would be a welcome change.
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Oct 19, 2023 13:49
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psydude posted:You're correct, but the issue is that nobody in power in the Arab world cared about any of those other things. This statement is such a profoundly incorrect statement, and it's the peak of for accusing people of being uninformed and living in media bubbles. Your statement is not is not about some mysterious lack of evidence or difficult circumstances, it's a point of view that is only possible either through reading no news at all or trying to push forward a very specific point of view. Don't tell me to "calm down" just because you wrote a very plainly untrue thing and got called on it. If you post obvious falsehoods, you should expect people to notice that. This is why I gave you a chance to pull back your comment, but you doubled down while also changing the subject away from Israel's response in the last 2 weeks and instead decided you wanted to address a different topic. Here's Saudi Arabia putting its normalization with Israel on hold multiple days before the hospital. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/14/saudi-arabia-puts-israel-deal-on-ice-amid-war-engages-with-iran-report quote:The first source familiar with Riyadh’s thinking said talks could not be continued for now and the issue of Israeli concessions for the Palestinians would need to be a bigger priority when discussions resumed – a comment that indicates Riyadh has not abandoned the idea. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/jordans-king-palestinian-leader-warn-against-escalation-gaza-2023-10-12/ Jordan posted:AMMAN, Oct 12 (Reuters) - Jordan's King Abdullah and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas called on Thursday for steps to prevent a deterioration in the Gaza crisis and they condemned what they called Israel's "collective punishment" of Palestinians. All of the statements below are from before the hospital. Egypt posted:Egypt: “The Arab Republic of Egypt warns of the dire dangers of the ongoing escalation between the Palestinian and Israeli sides, following a series of attacks against Palestinian cities. Egypt calls for exercising the utmost restraint and avoiding exposing civilians to further risks, warning of serious repercussions as a result of the escalation of violence, which would negatively affect the future of truce efforts. The Arab Republic of Egypt also calls on international actors involved in supporting efforts to resume the peace process to intervene immediately to stop the ongoing escalation, and urges Israel to stop attacks and provocative actions against the Palestinian people, and to adhere to the rules of international humanitarian law with regard to the responsibilities of the occupying state.” Iraq posted:Iraq: “Iraq affirms its firm position, as a people and a government, towards the Palestinian issue, and that it stands by the Palestinian people in achieving their aspirations and obtaining their full legitimate rights, and that injustice and the usurpation of these rights cannot produce sustainable peace. The operations carried out by the Palestinian people today are a natural result of the systematic oppression they have been subjected to since ancient times at the hands of the Zionist occupation authority, which has never adhered to international and UN resolutions. Therefore, we call on the international community to take action to put an end to the serious violations and restore the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people, which is still suffering from occupation, policies of racial discrimination, siege, transgression of sacred things, and violation of humanitarian values and principles. We warn of continued escalation within the Palestinian territories; because it will reflect on the stability of the region, we also call on the League of Arab States to convene urgently to discuss developments in the dangerous situation in the Palestinian territories.” Jordan posted:Jordan: “The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Expatriate Affairs stressed today the need to stop the dangerous escalation in Gaza and its surroundings, and warned of the dangerous repercussions of this escalation, which threatens to further escalate the situation, especially in light of the Israeli attacks and violations witnessed by cities and regions in the West Bank on the Palestinian people, and on Islamic and Christian sanctities and deprivation of the Palestinian people of their rights. The Ministry warned in a statement of the consequences of this escalation on all efforts to achieve comprehensive calm, and stressed the need for restraint, protection of civilians, and respect for international humanitarian law. The Ministry stressed that the escalation of violence in all its forms and the continued escalation will lead to worse and will reflect negatively on everyone. The Ministry stressed that finding a real political horizon to achieve peace on the basis of a two-state solution in accordance with international legitimacy resolutions, in a way that ends the occupation and embodies the independent, sovereign Palestinian state, with East Jerusalem as its capital, on the lines of June 4, 1967, so that it can live in security and peace alongside Israel and stop Israeli measures that perpetuate the occupation and undermine opportunities to achieve just and comprehensive peace is the only way to stop the deterioration and achieve security for all.” Kuwait posted:Kuwait: “The Ministry of Foreign Affairs expressed the State of Kuwait’s deep concern about the developments of recent events and the escalation taking place in the Gaza Strip and the occupied Palestinian territories, which came as a result of the continued violations and blatant attacks committed by the Israeli occupation authorities against the brotherly Palestinian people. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs affirms the State of Kuwait’s call on the international community, especially the [United Nations] Security Council, to assume its responsibilities and stop the ongoing violence, provide protection for the brotherly Palestinian people, and end the provocative practices of the occupation authorities, especially the ongoing violations of the sanctity of the Blessed Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the policy of settlement expansion. While the Ministry of Foreign Affairs affirms the firm and principled position of the State of Kuwait in standing by the brotherly Palestinian people and supporting them until they obtain all their rights, the most important of which is their independent state on the 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital, it warns that the continuation of the cycle of violence without stopping it and deterring those who caused it would undermine peace efforts and a two-state solution.” Qatar posted:Qatar: “The State of Qatar expresses its deep concern over the developments in [the] Gaza Strip and calls on all parties to de-escalate, and exercise maximum restraint. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs holds Israel solely responsible for the ongoing escalation due to its ongoing violations of the rights of the Palestinian people, the latest of which was the repeated incursions into Al-Aqsa Mosque under the protection of the Israeli police. The Ministry stresses the need for the international community to act [urgently] to compel Israel to stop its flagrant violations of international law, respect the resolutions of international legitimacy and the historical rights of the Palestinian people, and to prevent these events from being used as a pretext to ignite a new asymmetric war against Palestinian civilians in Gaza. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs reiterates the firm position of the State of Qatar regarding the justice of the Palestinian cause, and the legitimate rights of the brotherly Palestinian people, and to establish their independent state on the 1967 borders, with East Jerusalem as its capital.” Algeria posted:Algeria: “Algeria is following with great concern the development of the brutal Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip, which claimed the lives of dozens of innocent sons and daughters of the Palestinian people who fell as martyrs in light of the Zionist occupation’s persistence in the policy of oppression and persecution that it imposes on the brave Palestinian people. Algeria strongly condemns these policies and practices that violate the most basic humanitarian rules and references to international legitimacy. In this context, Algeria renews its demand for the immediate intervention of the international community through the relevant international bodies to protect the Palestinian people from the arrogance and crime that the Zionist occupation has made a feature of its occupation of the Palestinian territories. Algeria also renews its conviction that the Zionist settlement occupation is the core of the Arab-Israeli conflict and that ending the misfortunes, scourges and tragedies resulting from this conflict undoubtedly lies in responding to the legitimate national rights of the Palestinian people and enabling them to establish their independent state on the 1967 borders with Al-Quds Al-Sharif [Jerusalem] as its capital.” There are some other countries that make a more generic "everyone should de-escalate" without being terribly clear about which side they blame more. UAE is probably the most friendly to Israel in their statement, but you didn't just call out UAE. UAE, October 10 posted:Updated UAE statement, October 10: “The Ministry stressed that attacks by Hamas against Israeli towns and villages near the Gaza Strip, including the firing of thousands of rockets at population centers, are a serious and grave escalation. The Ministry is appalled by reports that Israeli civilians have been abducted as hostages from their homes. Civilians on both sides must always have full protection under international humanitarian law and must never be a target of conflict. The UAE expressed its condolences to the families of the victims and urges all diplomatic efforts to prevent a wider regional confrontation. Furthermore, the Ministry deeply mourns the loss of Israeli and Palestinian lives as a result of the outbreak of violence, and calls on both parties to de-escalate and avoid an expansion of the heinous violence with tragic consequences affecting civilian lives and facilities. The UAE underscored that the international community needs to work together to prevent the violence risking wider instability and spillover, including the involvement by other groups. The UAE reaffirmed that the international community must remain resolute in the face of these violent attempts to derail ongoing regional efforts aimed at dialogue, cooperation, and co-existence, and must not allow nihilistic destruction to overtake a region whose people have already suffered enough war and trauma. The Ministry stressed that the UAE remains in close contact with all regional and international partners to swiftly de-escalate the situation and restore calm in Israel and the OPT [occupied Palestinian territories] and a return to negotiations for a final settlement within the parameters of the two state solution for Palestinians and Israelis, who deserve to live in peace and dignity.” E: psydude posted:Hamas' propaganda victory around this [hospital] specific incident has made it impossible for them to quietly side with Israel against Hamas and makes it more difficult for the US and other countries to pressure Israel into a diplomatic solution. If you think the specific hospital story is "this specific" reason that countries are calling out Israel, you are ignoring all these statements and the maneuvering well before the hospital. mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 13:59
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Don't Ask posted:I'll be honest, I haven't been thinking straight since 07/10 so I may be missing a barb in your post, but basically yeah. I was not needling you in that post. Just talking the fact that whoever is responsible for the hospital, while it is a big news story, it’s unfortunately a small fraction of the collective punishment and casualties inflicted on civilians in Palestine in the wake of the Hamas terror attacks.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:05
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Did you miss my most recent post, or do you just assume that I'm posting in bad faith here? Because I honestly did think you were talking about the pre-war period since the guy you quoted was talking about his time in the IDF during the 2nd Lebanon war in 2006. For the record, I do agree with everything you posted, and yes, I recognize that many Arab countries have been critical of Israel since they started sealing off and bombing Gaza.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:07
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psydude posted:Did you miss my most recent post, Yeah, to be honest with you, I am not sure what topic you are addressing, really. I was talking about the 2023 war in the 2023 Hamas/Israeli War thread, which is why I was referencing the most recent cutting of water, the hospital incident, etc. Then you change subjects to 5 years ago. Then you changed subjects again to 2006 in the more recent post I didn't see. I am glad that you now acknowledge that it is not true that the hospital is the specific point at which Arab countries argued against Israel's conduct in Gaza and Palestine. Your post calling out the hospital incident as the "specific" point at which Arab led countries started to "care" about Israel's behavior indicated a contrary position.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:15
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Simply put, the point I was trying to (and apparently failed to) make is for however bad the diplomatic situation deteriorated prior to the hospital bombing, it feels like it was an inflection point in public sentiment where Arab leaders now can't engage constructively with Israel even if they want to.
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Oct 19, 2023 14:22
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If anyone's curious, this is the non-partisan FAQ built for members of congress as of 13 October 23 on the issue. https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R47754
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Oct 19, 2023 14:50
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Don't Ask posted:I'll be honest, I haven't been thinking straight since 07/10 so I may be missing a barb in your post, but basically yeah. I'd be interested in hearing what you are willing to share
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Oct 19, 2023 14:58
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Don't Ask posted:e: also I'm kinda surprised by the way some posters here are trying to pin this on Israel. A) There are a lot of credible debunking breakdowns, including multiple angles of the failed rocket and the impact, and B) There are enough terrible things that we did do, no need to go to great lengths for that unfortunately... The thing that makes me still they might still be responsible is their initial messaging of "we did it" then "we totally didn't do it" to "here's a press conference full of contradictions about how we didn't do it". I realize the initial reports aren't going to be correct but why would you put out obvious lies about something you didn't do?
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Oct 19, 2023 15:04
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When did they say they did it?
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Oct 19, 2023 15:13
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A.o.D. posted:When did they say they did it? A social media advisor to PM Netanyahu and member of the IDF (Naftali) initially claimed Israel did the strike justifiably because Hamas operatives were in the hospital. Then he deleted his tweet within the hour and said someone else did it. E: if you're asking about contradictions, the IDF used a video from 2022 and also a video time-stamped offset from the attack to say those were the strikes on the hospital. Both of these claims were proven to be untrue. After that, the IDF dropped them as evidence before settling on the latest explanations. mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 15:21
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60-some Palestinians murdered in the West Bank since 7 Oct. Suspected to be "reprisal" killings carried out by Israelis. https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1198908667/palestinians-appear-to-have-been-killed-in-reprisal-attacks-in-the-west-bank
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Oct 19, 2023 15:51
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psydude posted:You're correct, but the issue is that nobody in power in the Arab world cared about any of those other things. Hamas' propaganda victory around this specific incident has made it impossible for them to quietly side with Israel against Hamas and makes it more difficult for the US and other countries to pressure Israel into a diplomatic solution. arab leaders =/= the arab world. hell, lately even arab leaders that have generally been conspicuously silent on the issue for years appear to have remembered to care about the Palestinians a bit again recently. ime of young arabs awareness of Israel and at least some level of resentment towards the 1) Israeli treatment of Palestinians and 2) more or less abandonment of the Palestinian cause by most leaders in the arab world is widespread. imo people confuse a lack of action politically with the issue actually being in any way whatsoever resolved when in reality Israeli treatment of Palestinians remains a huge open wound of an issue. Americans in particular seem to have a really significant blindspot on this particular point. e: point was already talked about above I see. I should read to the end of the thread before replying Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 15:59
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mlmp08 posted:A social media advisor to PM Netanyahu and member of the IDF (Naftali) initially claimed Israel did the strike justifiably because Hamas operatives were in the hospital. Yeah this is what I was referring to.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:04
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This won’t tell you who did it, but it will point out inconsistencies in various stories. https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1715020457324290336?s=46&t=fppHBZSlD4AbSz5pJxjFMQ https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation
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Oct 19, 2023 16:30
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A (former) director at the state department posted:
They hated (and fired) him because he spoke the truth.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:37
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mlmp08 posted:This won’t tell you who did it, but it will point out inconsistencies in various stories. Another one to throw on the pile of news organisations saying "this doesn't make sense". https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1714984258358391057
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Oct 19, 2023 17:13
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I'm generally strongly an advocate for people reading more al jazeera (both the English and Arabic versions) but in light of that will note that this issue is one of the handful of things that falls squarely within the institutional blind spots of their goals as qatari funded media. Still worth reading, just read it with that in mind. Hell probably more worth reading given how little earnestly pro-Palestinian reporting happens in specifically American media.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:36
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I'm generally strongly an advocate for people reading more al jazeera (both the English and Arabic versions) but in light of that will note that this issue is one of the handful of things that falls squarely within the institutional blind spots of their goals as qatari funded media. Still worth reading, just read it with that in mind. Hell probably more worth reading given how little earnestly pro-Palestinian reporting happens in specifically American media. I'll second this. I read AJ more than any other international news service aside from BBC. They're normally very good, but on this topic they do let their opinions shine through. I still read what they put out on this conflict but I know it isn't the whole story. On a similar line I'd recommend Haaretz. Maybe the best paper in the middle east. Their perspective is more leftist typically, though they're polarized as well this the around. You'll read articles about how awful Hamas is next to an article blaming Bibi for the whole debacle. Other Israeli papers like J Post are just garbage.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:56
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Don't worry everyone, help is on the way https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1715056811936739778  Yes, I know worlds fifth largest economy, likely the front runner for 2028, etc etc. Still seems pretty dumb though.
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Oct 19, 2023 19:10
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Handsome Ralph posted:Don't worry everyone, help is on the way What a loving chode. What does he expect to do other than get in the way?
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Oct 19, 2023 19:27
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pantslesswithwolves posted:What a loving chode. What does he expect to do other than get in the way? One can only hope
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Oct 19, 2023 19:33
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California will establish the Westest Bank.
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Oct 19, 2023 20:37
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So after watching the Al Jazeera and channel 4 videos, what are the chances it was the rocket fired from gaza that then got cut in half by the iron dome and the payload bit fell on the hospital? I don't think I've seen anyone even propose that possibility. The Al Jazeera video claims it was completely destroyed, but I don't know what a rocket explosion looks like so I can't tell if that's accurate. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2023 21:54
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Can anyone recommend some sources to keep up to date on what is happening? Twitter is a minefield of disinformation and dead bodies and I'd like to avoid both if possible. So far CTV and CBC have been pretty vague on specifics while the media is dancing around who gets assigned responsibility for the hospital explosion and it has left reporting on the wider news a bit scant.
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Oct 19, 2023 22:17
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I genuinely thought the same thing is that probe worthy
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Oct 19, 2023 22:21
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Some of the other actors in the region are starting to get spicy https://twitter.com/CavasShips/status/1715090890987798956#m https://twitter.com/JoshuaKoontz__/status/1715125931201659155#m
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Oct 19, 2023 23:33
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Only a matter of time before something steps on our giant naval dicks out there 
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Oct 20, 2023 00:14
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Thiswillgetoutofcontrol.mp4
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Oct 20, 2023 00:30
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Knock it off. That's the opposite of escalatory.
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Oct 20, 2023 00:36
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Wouldn't be the first time a US Naval vessel came home with more metal in her than she left with that close to Israel
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Oct 20, 2023 00:41
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Farking Bastage posted:Only a matter of time before something steps on our giant naval dicks out there I don't worry too much about escalation myself. Hitting a carrier in the first place isn't an easy task. Iranian backed militias haven't hit a US military target since, when, the embassy bombings of the 80s? And things were a lot different then. If anything American is hit it will be a much softer target than a carrier group imo.
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Oct 20, 2023 00:43
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the expenditure of ordnance will make numbers go up
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Oct 20, 2023 04:18
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