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Engorged Pedipalps posted:1. Do you have any evidence of this actually happening other than IOF reports? I've seen this used as justification before but never seen actual evidence of it occurring. I think you need more than a soldiers post hoc justification to rationalize bombing a hospital Wikipedia tries to list out the various sources https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital
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Oct 19, 2023 17:07
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Wikipedia tries to list out the various sources https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital Where are the doctors and patients supposed to evacuate to?
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Oct 19, 2023 17:08
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Wikipedia tries to list out the various sources https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital There is virtually no evidence described in this article that wasn't later debunked or walked back There are claims that part of the hospital was occasionally used by Hamas, and one report of a rocket launch* from a Finnish journalist with no corroborating evidence Did you even read this link before you shared it? Assuming these reports were true, what is being described here is a problem that needs to be handled by ground forces, not WP bombardments and missile strikes. Additionally, this isn't the hospital that was struck, is a single isolated example, and doesn't justify the war crime of striking a hospital regardless Edit: upon reading the source of the Finnish rocket report, it turns out the rocket was launched from a location near the hospital (not the hospital itself) and the reporter regretted reporting it because it was immediately being used to justify violence against Palestine Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 17:10
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tagesschau posted:They haven't faced the electorate since 2006. Their claim to legitimacy expired long ago. Does that matter for purposes of whether civilians or armed forces of that state should be protected by the Geneva Conventions. When is the last time our good buddy PM Mohammed bin Salman faced the electorate. If you're just saying it's bad that Hamas governs Gaza without holding regular elections I agree, if you're saying that it's not a legitimate government if it doesn't hold elections then international law disagrees with you because absolute monarchies exist and have UN membership VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 17:12
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:*Words* Where are the doctors supposed to move their operation to, and how?
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Oct 19, 2023 17:12
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:What I am pointing out is that physicians running the hospital are crossing a line between Hippocratic oath and Geneva protections So, when you said you "weren't taking sides" you meant "I'm taking sides but don't want to be held accountable for it." And after dozens of people have asked, including myself in the post you were responding to, "where do the doctors etc go" you STILL won't answer it.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:14
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:...things get pretty ugly if other Arab nations decide to get involved. It’ll be quite interesting to see how Biden’s trip goes. Unfortunately I see Biden as the only hope Palestinians have right now for getting Israel to stop crossing over into ethnic cleansing territory. I don't think any other Arab country is actually going to get involved in any meaningful official way. To add to the pile of miseries, I've never thought that any of the other regional players really care about the people themselves beyond what they can use for their own purposes. Egypt doesn't like Hamas because they're an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood. The Saudi's will make noise but that's all since Hamas is an Iranian proxy, and that's their regional enemy. Iran doesn't really care beyond using their proxies to harm Israel. Lebanon doesn't want to get a big chunk of Beirut leveled again. Syria won't do anything to risk making any opening to reignite their conflict.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:14
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NovemberMike posted:Ok, so the debunking is "We have named primary sources that were confirmed in the area and in charge of efforts confirming it, but a secondary source cannot confirm or deny within days while an active war is going on so it is 100% blood libel"? What are these primary sources? What are there names?
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Oct 19, 2023 17:18
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Nail Rat posted:They've already been in ethnic cleansing territory for decades, now they have (not are crossing, HAVE) crossed into full on attempted genocide. I'm pretty sure that, as with bribery, the attempt is what constitutes genocide. Germany didn't fail to commit genocide just because they got stopped.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:18
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Jen heir rick posted:What are these primary sources? What are there names? Golan Vach. If you read the article you would see it.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:19
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NovemberMike posted:Golan Vach. If you read the article you would see it. That guys is an IDF Col. it would not be first or last time IDF officers have lied about what they've seen.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:20
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Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:I don't think any other Arab country is actually going to get involved in any meaningful official way. To add to the pile of miseries, I've never thought that any of the other regional players really care about the people themselves beyond what they can use for their own purposes. Egypt doesn't like Hamas because they're an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood. The Saudi's will make noise but that's all since Hamas is an Iranian proxy, and that's their regional enemy. Iran doesn't really care beyond using their proxies to harm Israel. Lebanon doesn't want to get a big chunk of Beirut leveled again. Syria won't do anything to risk making any opening to reignite their conflict. Biden has considered himself a “Zionist at heart”, so we’re all pretty screwed watching this senile twat being unable to control Israel. It’s too late to primary him out https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/wireStory/zionist-heart-bidens-devotion-israel-faces-new-test-103930479
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Oct 19, 2023 17:20
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Biden has considered himself a “Zionist at heart”, so we’re all pretty screwed watching this senile twat being unable to control Israel. It’s too late to primary him out Where are the doctors supposed to move their operation to, and how?
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Oct 19, 2023 17:24
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NovemberMike posted:Golan Vach. If you read the article you would see it. Sorry I missed that: quote:Colonel Golan Vach, the head of the IDF’s national search and rescue unit, said that he had “found one baby with his head cut.” Damning evidence
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Oct 19, 2023 17:28
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Jen heir rick posted:Sorry I missed that: I mean the initial reporting was only off by 98% Perfectly reasonable to have a margin of error, 1 baby, 40 babies. What's the difference? Engorged Pedipalps fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 17:31
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Biden has considered himself a “Zionist at heart”, so we’re all pretty screwed watching this senile twat being unable to control Israel. It’s too late to primary him out None of what you said was a response to what you quoted. Anyways where are the doctors and patients supposed to go and how?
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Oct 19, 2023 17:32
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e: wrong thread AGAIN, sorry!
Majorian fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 17:35
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Jen heir rick posted:Sorry I missed that: "Cut"? Is that a mistranslation?
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Oct 19, 2023 17:38
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:I mean the initial reporting was only off by 98% Was anyone making a serious claim that 40 babies were beheaded? I always heard it as 40 babies killed, some beheaded.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:38
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NovemberMike posted:Was anyone making a serious claim that 40 babies were beheaded? I always heard it as 40 babies killed, some beheaded. The initial outrage over Hamas' attack was in part over how "barbaric and inhuman" Hamas was, because they beheaded 40 babies.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:41
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NovemberMike posted:Was anyone making a serious claim that 40 babies were beheaded? I always heard it as 40 babies killed, some beheaded. Only multiple respected and well known news outlets.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:46
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Randalor posted:The initial outrage over Hamas' attack was in part over how "barbaric and inhuman" Hamas was, because they beheaded 40 babies. So is that a no to having an even semi-reputable source suggesting 40 beheaded babies? What I always heard was 40 dead babies, some beheaded.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:49
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Ciprian Maricon posted:Only multiple respected and well known news outlets. Except that every major news outlet said "unverified"? https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/unverified-allegations-beheaded-babies-israel-hamas-war-inflame-social-rcna119902 https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html So... maybe The Sun ran with an uncritical parroting of that, but they're not exactly a "respected" news outlet. Even mainstream but ultra-lovely and not-at-all-respected news outlets also never said 40 were beheaded: https://www.foxnews.com/world/40-babies-some-beheaded-found-israel-soldiers-hamas-attacked-village https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/hamas-kills-40-babies-and-children-beheading-some-of-them-at-israeli-kibbutz-report/ https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-massacred.html A lot of infants were actually slaughtered by Hamas.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:54
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NovemberMike posted:So is that a no to having an even semi-reputable source suggesting 40 beheaded babies? What I always heard was 40 dead babies, some beheaded. You asked if anyone was making a serious claim, not if a reputable source was.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:59
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Randalor posted:You asked if anyone was making a serious claim, not if a reputable source was. You need a semi-reputable source to make a serious claim. By serious I mean that normal people with a bit of understanding about the news and media would take the claim seriously. I'd even include things like Fox news but not the Bumfuck Gazette.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:00
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Randalor posted:The initial outrage over Hamas' attack was in part over how "barbaric and inhuman" Hamas was, because they beheaded 40 babies. I'm pretty sure arguing over the 40+ babies Hamas killed among the 1300 total slaughtered was declared a no-go zone earlier in this thread. Might be best to not revive it.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:01
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NovemberMike posted:You need a semi-reputable source to make a serious claim. By serious I mean that normal people with a bit of understanding about the news and media would take the claim seriously. I'd even include things like Fox news but not the Bumfuck Gazette. Normal people have absolutely taken the claim seriously. The fact that ABC or whoever hedged their bets by saying "Unverified" before printing an insane headline doesn't make it any less ridiculous or irresponsible. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 18:03
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:I'm pretty sure arguing over the 40+ babies Hamas killed among the 1300 total slaughtered was declared a no-go zone earlier in this thread. Might be best to not revive it. Agreed. If people are seriously debating the severity of baby murder maybe it's best to move on because nothing will really be gained from this.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:05
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NovemberMike posted:Was anyone making a serious claim that 40 babies were beheaded? I always heard it as 40 babies killed, some beheaded. That was being reported, yes.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:16
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NovemberMike posted:Was anyone making a serious claim that 40 babies were beheaded? I always heard it as 40 babies killed, some beheaded. You must be living under a rock sir. This is 2023 no one cares about semi legit sources or legit sources, we all believe some random blue checkmark on twitter which a lot of US officials + celebrities did. Unless you are in the biggest echochamber of all time, yes many thought/think hamas beheaded 40 kids or most of them not like some 1-2.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:22
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Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:I don't think any other Arab country is actually going to get involved in any meaningful official way. To add to the pile of miseries, I've never thought that any of the other regional players really care about the people themselves beyond what they can use for their own purposes. Egypt doesn't like Hamas because they're an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood. The Saudi's will make noise but that's all since Hamas is an Iranian proxy, and that's their regional enemy. Iran doesn't really care beyond using their proxies to harm Israel. Lebanon doesn't want to get a big chunk of Beirut leveled again. Syria won't do anything to risk making any opening to reignite their conflict. neighoring arab states are not going to ride to the rescue no, especially when Palestanians were a significant source of instability within the borders of many of its neighbors the saudis or whatever are prob going to be a source of reconstruction money next year tho
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Oct 19, 2023 18:26
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:Wikipedia tries to list out the various sources https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital You could have the patients pressing the launch button from their bed with a notary there to sign an affidavit saying, "yes we launched them from the hospital" with 3 witnesses, and bombing a hospital would still not be okay. The response has to be proportional to the threat. Is Israel wants to pretend to be the Good Guy, then they send their boots to the hospital and take out the launcher another way instead of cowardly bombing patients. Or send a lancet drone or something. You don't get to missile strike hospitals because of some gotcha technicality. Mid-Life Crisis posted:What I am pointing out is that physicians running the hospital are crossing a line between Hippocratic oath and Geneva protections And this just is just willfully ignorant of the staggeringly high percentage of critical, trauma patients that would die en route to the magical hospital somewhere else with the appropriate level of care and number of beds that isn't in a war zone. Moving those critical patients (likely the only ones still there) would be the violation of the oath, not keeping them in place. ummel fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 18:26
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So the argument is that news orgs have lovely headlines? That's a serious problem but the actual articles that are linked don't claim 40 babies beheaded.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:27
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Typo posted:neighoring arab states are not going to ride to the rescue no, especially when Palestanians were a significant source of instability within the borders of many of its neighbors So that implies that the endgame here is that Israel rolls in the tanks to Gaza, lots of Innocents and soldiers get killed, Gaza gets turned into something that looks like New Vegas, Israel pulls out after the casualties mount and international pressure gets too high, then the Oil rich middle eastern counties pay for some reconstruction, and in 5 years we end up right where we were on September 30th? daslog fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 18:31
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Typo posted:neighoring arab states are not going to ride to the rescue no, especially when Palestanians were a significant source of instability within the borders of many of its neighbors Yeah, as far as I know none of the neighbours actually like/care about Palestinians due to some of the history, so they're really well and truly alone in this
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Oct 19, 2023 18:34
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NovemberMike posted:So the argument is that news orgs have lovely headlines? That's a serious problem but the actual articles that are linked don't claim 40 babies beheaded. It was mostly tabloids and lovely news. I think it peaked with Fox because they're basically the NY Post at this point. The vast majority of entities that pushed it was twitter blue check clout4cash chasers and disinformation pushers. I've seen it mentioned here & twitter more than in any normal, sane place for discussion, and mostly as a gotcha! for IDF lies. It was buried as a thread topic for these reasons. We were slapfighting about tabloid headlines.
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Oct 19, 2023 18:40
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NovemberMike posted:Was anyone making a serious claim that 40 babies were beheaded? I always heard it as 40 babies killed, some beheaded. The number wasn't specified but it was implied to be many or most of the hypothetical babies and being headless is not the same as being beheaded, in the context of ME politics beheading has a specific meaning as an execution practice and implies something happened that didn't actually happen A child got caught in a crossfire during a war and died in a horrific way. I don't want to minimize that. But that isn't the story the IOF is telling. They are routinely portraying the Palestinian people in a way that dehumanizes them, and they're doing that so they can get away with treating them in a less than human way
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Oct 19, 2023 18:49
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daslog posted:So that implies that the endgame here is that Israel rolls in the tanks to Gaza, lots of Innocents and soldiers get killed, Gaza gets turned into something that looks like New Vegas, Israel pulls out after the casualties mount and international pressure gets too high, then the Oil rich middle eastern counties pay for some reconstruction, and in 5 years we end up right where we were on September 30th? that seem pretty likely tbh, if you zoom out a little this is just one episode among many in the decades long running Israeli-Palestinian conflict the poltiical endgame Israel has for gaza atm seem to be handing it back to fatah, not sure how that's gonna work out tho
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Oct 19, 2023 18:52
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Eh even according to the Israelis there isn't any clear endgame, at least according to administration officials they talked to during Biden's visit. Currently they're trying to empty out Gaza city which is certainly one way of dealing with the problem of Gaza generally supporting Hamas though I don't think that plan is remotely as workable as they appear to think it is plus there's all the massive humanitarian and international law issues of it
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Oct 19, 2023 19:00
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NovemberMike posted:So the argument is that news orgs have lovely headlines? That's a serious problem but the actual articles that are linked don't claim 40 babies beheaded. the president if the united states also said he saw them, so there's that. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-deliver-remarks-roundtable-jewish-community-leaders-rcna119865
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Oct 19, 2023 19:40
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