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BrianRx posted:No. Bad. I b..I beleeb you have my leprechaun...
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Oct 19, 2023 21:22
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Turin Turambar posted:It's a pity there was this discussion about not roguelikes in the thread some hours ago, because now we could have it again with this Steam sale! :P Maybe this will help: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1912420/Sunshine_Shuffle/ is at the top of the list for me but afaik doesn’t even claim to be a roguelike.
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Oct 19, 2023 21:25
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At least they don't have a splash page this time arguing that survival/crafting games and Soulslike games are Roguelikes and featuring them as a distinct part of the Roguelike sale. e: I'll take this opportunity to say that the Souls-like roguelite Arboria is totally bizarre and actually really good. It feels vaguely reminiscent of a Character Action oriented version of diving deep underground in Caves of Qud - mutations, underground cyber-trolls, ruins of ancient technology, etc. It's not part of the Steam sale but it's available in a Fanatical build your own bundle that ends in a few days, you can get it (plus one other game like Rainworld maybe) for $6. https://www.fanatical.com/en/pick-and-mix/fanatical-favorites-build-your-own-bundle deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 21:28
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In fact I like Arboria so much here is a free key for it, if you take it please play the game and post your impressions about it 
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Oct 19, 2023 22:28
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deep dish peat moss posted:In fact I like Arboria so much here is a free key for it, if you take it please play the game and post your impressions about it grab this! will post some thoughts about it later here~
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Oct 19, 2023 22:32
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Subjunctive posted:Maybe this will help: That one is pretty funny. That's not a roguelike in any sense unless you consider Texas Hold 'Em a roguelike on its own. StarkRavingMad fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 23:21
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What do you mean? Shuffling cards is one of the quintessential roguelike mechanics.
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Oct 19, 2023 23:28
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StarkRavingMad posted:That one is pretty funny. That's not a roguelike in any sense unless you consider Texas Hold 'Em a roguelike on its own. It has ska music, that makes it a roguelite.
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Oct 19, 2023 23:46
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The tone and art style of Arboria makes me feel like I am playing an action adventure game from the early 2000s. I mean this positively.
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Oct 19, 2023 23:51
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Cryptark being free is loving amazing and you should all play a few minutes of it even if it's not your jam. It's only half a peg below FTL and Spelunky in terms of hitting it out of the park. I also agree with Jack Traders (god forbid), this thread needs the hyrbid chat to keep it alive. There are _fuck all_ new traditional RLs coming out annually, and Qud has its own thread which would be 19/20 posts anyways. Regarding a new thread OP: if it's so contentious, I might just drop it. Most people on SA just fly into the last page anyways, right?
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Oct 20, 2023 00:01
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parthenocarpy posted:Same with card shuffling. I cannot fathom how people think they're playing a roguelike when they're restricted by choice to card draw. People legit think Slay the Spire is roguelike
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Oct 20, 2023 02:04
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^^ IIRC one of the things people argue about being a load-bearing part of the definition of roguelike is non-modality; at any given moment you have, at least in principle, your entire toolbox available to you, with no division between exploration vs. combat vs. puzzle-solving. Nethack is in fact an examplar of this design philosophy, and I could see how someone who values that property a lot would object to the way games like StS split things up. For my part, StS and its imitators can be fun but they definitely don't scratch the same itch that DoomRL or Qud do. Subjunctive posted:doomrl should be JH these days maybe? JH is cool, but DoomRL: - handles pretty differently from JH - runs on basically any computer no matter how potatoey - has clean and readable graphics - is free IMO those last three points actually make it a better intro roguelike than JH. ToxicFrog fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 02:29
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As an aspiring roguelike liker, are there any standout games to buy in the current celebration sale?
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Oct 20, 2023 02:36
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Serephina posted:Cryptark being free is loving amazing and you should all play a few minutes of it even if it's not your jam. It's only half a peg below FTL and Spelunky in terms of hitting it out of the park. I actually liked Cryptark more than either of those, it's fantastic. Everyone run over and grab it.
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Oct 20, 2023 02:40
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a lot of the stuff on the roguelike sale page isnt even on sale. meanwhile rift wizard is on sale and not on the page.
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Oct 20, 2023 02:47
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Yeah, I was going to recommend some trad roguelikes but Shiren, Qud, and Jupiter Hell are all full price. And so are Tangledeep, Dungeonmans, Cogmind, and Tales of Maj’eyal. This is obviously a roguelite celebration 
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Oct 20, 2023 02:55
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Non-modality is simultaneously a very distinctive part of the feel of Rogue and its immediate successors, and also something that 99% of players give zero shits about. People latched onto the parts of the experience that they actually care about and now as long as it has cool random stuff to loot it's a roguelike. Meanwhile in an alternate universe grogs in the tetrislike thread are melting down because someone brought up match-3s again.
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Oct 20, 2023 03:05
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are they more agreeable to match 4s?
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Oct 20, 2023 03:09
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where does bust-a-move stand according to the berlin definition of tetrislikes??
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Oct 20, 2023 03:13
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A few weeks ago I was poo-pooing the idea of non-modality, but after playing another round of Civ6 I can kind of see what happens at the other end of the spectrum; there where a bunch of mystery mechanics interacting off of each other and I had no idea which sub-menu they could be listed under, Policies/Religion/Wonders/Golden Ages/Governors arghh Why was X happeningggg?! So yea, having everything cleanly presented to the player might not be a defining aspect of RLs, but its certainly something to appreciate.
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Oct 20, 2023 03:18
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Clearly what we should do here is propose an alliance between the roguelike likers and the immersive sim fans
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Oct 20, 2023 03:21
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Speaking of Here's classification problem for everyone, how much of a roguelike or immersive sim is Mosa Lina? https://store.steampowered.com/app/2477090/Mosa_Lina/ I think it fufills many of the criteria of the Berlin Interpretation even if it bills itself as primarily an immersive sim
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Oct 20, 2023 03:26
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parthenocarpy posted:When I think of Rogue Legacy, I conjure an image of Milton from Simpsons proudly saying "I'm a roguelike!" 1) the meaning of terms changes over time, this may or may not be annoying and cause imprecision, but it is a fact 2) it's time for you to stop posting ITT about what a roguelike is or isn't. Feel free to make posts about more traditional roguelikes.
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Oct 20, 2023 03:54
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Not just to address that poster - it's fine to chat a bit about what a roguelike is and where the boundary is, but within moderation. The meaning of the term has shifted, and it annoys me too, but that's life!
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Oct 20, 2023 03:54
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Genre is a construct. Whoever came up with the term roguelite needs to be shanked. There's a straight line between Nethack and spelunky and the definition got messy over time cause that's how the evolution of artistic mediums works. And honestly not preferring current trends is whatever and cool but Jesus why should anyone care about the pedantic and tedious particulars of someone's tastes? Trends are trends and evolution produces some cool and novel stuff and a load of bullshit that wants to cash in on the trend. Also a story old as time. Like none of this matters unless specificity is required in order to get what someone's talking about. Past that man it's such a waste of energy.
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Oct 20, 2023 04:04
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Also Shattered Pixel Dungeon is on sale and I picked it up and am hooked. It's not even doing anything spectacular but it feels so *nice*. Like a comfy blanket.
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Oct 20, 2023 04:08
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ToxicFrog posted:^^ IIRC one of the things people argue about being a load-bearing part of the definition of roguelike is non-modality; at any given moment you have, at least in principle, your entire toolbox available to you, with no division between exploration vs. combat vs. puzzle-solving. Nethack is in fact an examplar of this design philosophy, and I could see how someone who values that property a lot would object to the way games like StS split things up.
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Oct 20, 2023 04:16
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Random Rift Wizard interjection! After encountering a rift with bone megaliths and Energy Attunment Death Shock i learned there's a hard cap on 20 shields. I swear I spent 20 seconds just watching Death Shock bounce constantly between all the constantly spawning enemies as they died. It was glorious. That is all, please resume the endless discussion on what constitutes a Roguelike and whatnot. Edit: oh that was rift 24. Mordred was surprisingly easy. Especially when Lightning Bolt hits roughly 7 loving times for over 100 damage total. One hit base, plus fire and arcane from Energy Bolt (3), plus half again as Holy from Holy Thunder (4), and then Crackling Attunement to redeal the lightning damage half again as fire(5)... and the fire damage from Energy Bolt half again as Lighting(6). There must be an extra hit somewhere I'm missing because the first cast always wiped his 7 shields. Then I used Death Shock to refresh my shields, Lightning Form so I could use Lighting Bolt to zap myself away when Mordred got close, Arc Lighting to just clear chaff out... oh snap I could've hit Mordred with Conductance to really wreck him with Lightning Bolt. If I wasn't phone posting I'd share the screenshot of my character sheet. IthilionTheBrave fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 04:23
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we need code that turns the endless what is a roguelike discussion into a harmless flower or a tombstone marker after 2 hours to clean up the thread
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Oct 20, 2023 04:39
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i only care about the definition of roguelike so much... because its the only "like" i will ever get to experience 🥹
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Oct 20, 2023 04:43
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Zorch is a roguelike
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Oct 20, 2023 04:48
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ToxicFrog posted:^^ IIRC one of the things people argue about being a load-bearing part of the definition of roguelike is non-modality; at any given moment you have, at least in principle, your entire toolbox available to you, with no division between exploration vs. combat vs. puzzle-solving. Nethack is in fact an examplar of this design philosophy, and I could see how someone who values that property a lot would object to the way games like StS split things up. ToME would not fit that definition then, since it has exploration and dungeon crawling separated.
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Oct 20, 2023 05:02
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modality is important in that it’s closely related to the real determiner of what’s a real roguelike: the ability to rob the merchant in the dungeon
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Oct 20, 2023 05:05
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Ramie posted:Maybe I have said this before idk, but I can't see someone earnestly making the argument that classic roguelikes are getting pushed to the side in favor of something else because look: classic roguelikes get to be in the spotlight of the world's premier PC game distribution platform, and have been for a while. Did old-school roguelikes EVER have as many random bystander eyeballs on 'em as Caves of Qud, Golden Krone Hotel, and all the rest of the big Steam standbys do? probably not, as most of the old-school stuff is free and open source (and ADOM, which is... free but not open-source) nobody makes money off of them, therefore there's no real advertising of them/there never has been
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Oct 20, 2023 05:11
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nrook posted:modality is important in that it’s closely related to the real determiner of what’s a real roguelike: the ability to rob the merchant in the dungeon
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Oct 20, 2023 05:23
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nrook posted:modality is important in that it’s closely related to the real determiner of what’s a real roguelike: the ability to rob the merchant in the dungeon This is actually kinda true. It's not so much the ability to rob the merchant, but that because the game is non-modal, mechanics are automatically present across the entire game. Robbing the merchant is not something that needs to be programmed in, it is a natural consequence of the mechanics of shopping being an extension of just picking things up in the dungeon. You never "steal" things in Nethack, you simply pick them up off the floor in an area that is flagged as a shop and then leave that area without paying the cost of the item to the shopkeeper. The choice then to let the player steal is a matter of how to handle the player doing the above. A lot of Nethack's "the devs think of everything" reputation is because a lot of the crazy stuff you can do is something that emerges from the basic gameplay and the devs just added some sugar on top. In Slay the Spire you can't rob the merchant because the merchant acts entirely differently to the rest of the game. There is no emergent gameplay to be had at the merchant because interactions are tightly controlled by what the developer specifically programs in. EDIT: What's especially interesting to me is that we've expanded the definition of roguelike around the procedural gen+permadeath aspects of rogue. But the top-down, turn-based, tile-based, non-modal, complex, single character RPG aspects of roguelikes seem to be abandoned. I think there's actually enough meat on those bones for that aspect of the genre to go it alone without permadeath or procedural generation and I'm disappointed to see it left unexplored so far (as far as I know). I can see what procedural generation and permadeath do for Nethack, but I think there's enough outside of them to create a similar game that is no less compelling. There are still people making playthroughs of Baldur's Gate 2 ffs. Add in enough interesting interactions and build variety and non-linearity and you can still have a very replayable experience. Phigs fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Oct 20, 2023 |
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Oct 20, 2023 05:24
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did anyone post this yet https://hard-drive.net/hd/video-games/roguelike-genre-purist-hopes-someone-will-develop-a-roguelike-someday/
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Oct 20, 2023 05:48
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IthilionTheBrave posted:Random Rift Wizard interjection! After encountering a rift with bone megaliths and Energy Attunment Death Shock i learned there's a hard cap on 20 shields. I swear I spent 20 seconds just watching Death Shock bounce constantly between all the constantly spawning enemies as they died. It was glorious. I've noticed kind of a soft pattern among roguelikes/roguelites where the random encounters are significantly harder than the actual designed bosses. For Rift Wizard in particular, Mordred is very vulnerable to weakness exposing (e..g, Aether Daggers) and has a crippling weakness of only acting once per turn. He's much less threatening than facing down five aether fiends or void titans or whatever you've been fighting in rifts 20-24.
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Oct 20, 2023 05:53
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Never knew what a roguelike was until I randomly tried a game called Dungeons of Dredmor. It was a great first introduction to the genre. It had some charming visuals, the gameplay was simple enough to learn but the skill trees and builds made it fun and interesting. I remember it having a fairly involved crafting system too. Might be time to revisit for nostalgia's sake. From there it was a quick descent into madness with ToME. I've put a stupid amount of hours in that game and it's probably still my favorite traditional roguelike. It has so many different ways to play that no run ever has to feel the same (even if I may have played Sun Paladin the same way on repeat until I won). Having a path to follow with the main story helps provide some direction. Makes it stand out compared to more mechanics focused games like DCSS or Pixel Dungeon. DoomRL was the next one I really loved, and nowadays Jupiter Hell. The emphasis on ranged combat gave it a way different feel than the others. I also appreciated the challenges to complete to raise your profile rank to show yourself how giant of a nerd you were. And then I happened to see a video of Slay the Spire. The graphics were sort of a turnoff but hey, everyone is having fun with it so I'll give it a shot. Like everyone else I instantly loved it. The RNG in the cards, in the map paths, relics you get, ect really fed the same brain worms as all the cool roguelikes I played. Working with what you are offered and trying to optimize is fun! All that to say I appreciate the widened discussion that includes more than just traditional roguelikes. It's not like a new ToME is coming out every month. Hell, ToME can hardly release its updates without half a decade of waiting. Since that's the case I'm glad people are discussing things that have the "spirit" of the genre while being something else entirely. Against the Storm has nothing to do with DCSS, sure. But people who appreciate procedural generation, randomness, the feeling of working with the hand you are dealt, optimizing your build, metaprogression, the ability to pause/turn based would also most likely enjoy it. Lots of posters with good taste in here that have pointed out gems I never would have found otherwise (Revita, AtS, Qud, Astrea). Even the random patch notes sometimes reminded me to go back to a game to check it out...or deliver sad news that Revita won't ever get an official 2.0.
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Oct 20, 2023 06:14
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SKULL.GIF posted:I've noticed kind of a soft pattern among roguelikes/roguelites where the random encounters are significantly harder than the actual designed bosses. For Rift Wizard in particular, Mordred is very vulnerable to weakness exposing (e..g, Aether Daggers) and has a crippling weakness of only acting once per turn. He's much less threatening than facing down five aether fiends or void titans or whatever you've been fighting in rifts 20-24. I don't know if I'd say Mordred is easier per se. For one thing, he summons all those rift 20-24 enemies every 15 or so turns. Mostly he's just a very different sort of threat than the rest of the game, with different strengths and weaknesses than conventional enemies that can call for somewhat different strategies. Generally there's a fair bit of overlap, but there are plenty of builds that steamroll the last few rifts only to get stopped cold by Mordy and then there are builds that just make a desperate dash to rift 25 and immediately gank Mordred. The disconnect between the final challenge and the rest of the game is one of the more common complaints I see about Rift Wizard, and it is definitely a pretty mean trick the first time you get there, but I do kind of appreciate it as a nudge towards more well rounded builds.
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Oct 20, 2023 06:27
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